Round 21 V Sharks

[betcats]

I was saying his best plays, ie. the parts where he carved the sharks up, weren’t traditional halfback plays.

Yes, halfbacks run ball, but it’s Cleary’s best attacking attribute. Not many 7’s are like that.




Sincere question you missed though, what part of Cleary’s game would you say has improved since 2016/17?

His all round leadership, direction and control has improved imo. His kicking game also. He is running the ball more. And defensively obviously he has gone from strength to strength.

 

[betcats]

Not all halves have the ability to take advantage of the tired forwards, they might spot it, but running through the gap is a whole other matter.

A good half doesn't dummy and run like he did for his try?

Any good half who gets the ball in the situation he received it for his try assist is running the ball. He caught the ball in two hands, the entire defence thought the ball was going to be passed to his outside but he had eyes up, spotted the gap and took off like a good half. Later in the game he gets the ball in two hands, looks up and sees space and passes which was the right option and leads to Edwards strolling over.

He controlled that game fantastically on Friday, he had some help from young Burton no doubt but Cleary was pulling the strings and doing his job as a halfback very well. We had 3 debutants including a half and there we didn't look disorganised at all, every set was well constructed and we moved the ball and attacked the sharks where they were weak.

 

[herbert henry1908]

His all round leadership, direction and control has improved imo. His kicking game also. He is running the ball more. And defensively obviously he has gone from strength to strength.

Fair enough, all those in your first line are pretty intangible, but I can’t say I’ve noticed what you have. He’s always looked pretty composed.

Defence he’s no better statistically, he was also good though. His tackle efficiency in his first season was 89%, this year its 85%.

He is running the ball a bit more this year compared to others, but as I’ve noted that’s his strength.



I just don’t see improvement in the key areas. Putting people into gaps, creating tries, tries from kicks.

There’s an argument that Maloney has impeded his growth, so we’ll soon see if that’s true. I just think in order to be an elite 7 you need really good game vision. Just don’t think he has that.

 

[herbert henry1908]

A good half doesn't dummy and run like he did for his try?

Any good half who gets the ball in the situation he received it for his try assist is running the ball. He caught the ball in two hands, the entire defence thought the ball was going to be passed to his outside but he had eyes up, spotted the gap and took off like a good half. Later in the game he gets the ball in two hands, looks up and sees space and passes which was the right option and leads to Edwards strolling over.

He controlled that game fantastically on Friday, he had some help from young Burton no doubt but Cleary was pulling the strings and doing his job as a halfback very well. We had 3 debutants including a half and there we didn't look disorganised at all, every set was well constructed and we moved the ball and attacked the sharks where they were weak.

I’m saying he has the ability to get through the gap, a lot of other halves don’t have that. He’s second amongst Halfbacks for running meters per game.


In the end it was only one game, if he’s going to be a star he needs those performances more regularly. Over his career those games have been few and far between. Next year will be the real test.

 

[betcats]

Fair enough, all those in your first line are pretty intangible, but I can’t say I’ve noticed what you have. He’s always looked pretty composed.

Defence he’s no better statistically, he was also good though. His tackle efficiency in his first season was 89%, this year its 85%.

He is running the ball a bit more this year compared to others, but as I’ve noted that’s his strength.



I just don’t see improvement in the key areas. Putting people into gaps, creating tries, tries from kicks.

There’s an argument that Maloney has impeded his growth, so we’ll soon see if that’s true. I just think in order to be an elite 7 you need really good game vision. Just don’t think he has that.

He has always been composed and calm under pressure, he hasn’t always had had the ability to control games and be the dominant half like has a few games this season. And yes it is only one gams and he needs to be there consistently.

 

[Kilkenny]

We don’t always need to talk our players down. We should be a little more upbeat.

I agree, it probably hasn’t been a great season despite where we currently sit on the ladder, but given the turmoil which started before last season even ended and has continued throughout this entire season we have probably done remarkably well considering.

Who could possibly have predicated or foresaw our 17 for the game against the Sharks at the start of this season and I think it is a testemant to our depth that we are where we are even if not a perfect scenario.

 

[OldPanther]

I know you aren’t, I’m saying in general. The two things are quite exclusive of each other.

If he has been impeded then 2020 should be a breakout year.

I’d still at the least prefer to see him stand a bit wider in a traditional 5/8’s role so he could use that running game a bit more.

Yes to all of that. We'll see if he makes a fool out of me.

 

[franklin2323]

We don’t always need to talk our players down. We should be a little more upbeat.

I agree, it probably hasn’t been a great season despite where we currently sit on the ladder, but given the turmoil which started before last season even ended and has continued throughout this entire season we have probably done remarkably well considering.

Who could possibly have predicated or foresaw our 17 for the game against the Sharks at the start of this season and I think it is a testemant to our depth that we are where we are even if not a perfect scenario.

I don't see it as putting anyone down. Just discussing how to improve the side

 

[Kilkenny]

A good half doesn't dummy and run like he did for his try?

Any good half who gets the ball in the situation he received it for his try assist is running the ball. He caught the ball in two hands, the entire defence thought the ball was going to be passed to his outside but he had eyes up, spotted the gap and took off like a good half. Later in the game he gets the ball in two hands, looks up and sees space and passes which was the right option and leads to Edwards strolling over.

He controlled that game fantastically on Friday, he had some help from young Burton no doubt but Cleary was pulling the strings and doing his job as a halfback very well. We had 3 debutants including a half and there we didn't look disorganised at all, every set was well constructed and we moved the ball and attacked the sharks where they were weak.

I agree. Nathan will never quite reach the heights of a Greg Alexander or Craig Gower but they were two exceptional half backs. I think he will almost certainly go to the next level without James Maloney as long as we have an effective number six as a foil for him whether that is Burton or Luai or someone else time will tell.

 

[Kilkenny]

I don't see it as putting anyone down. Just discussing how to improve the side

Maybe I’m wrong and I understand it is very much a forum thing regardless of whether it is Panther fans forum or Dragons fan forum or whatever ever club other than say the big two in the Storm & Roosters (the obvious heavyweights) but we just seem to put down what we have. The one thing I will say is Nathan Cleary is never going to play number 9 so we should put that one to bed right here and now in the debate around improving the side.

 

[franklin2323]

Maybe I’m wrong and I understand it is very much a forum thing regardless of whether it is Panther fans forum or Dragons fan forum or whatever ever club other than say the big two in the Storm & Roosters (the obvious heavyweights) but we just seem to put down what we have. The one thing I will say is Nathan Cleary is never going to play number 9 so we should put that one to bed right here and now in the debate around improving the side.

We have been a finals team without ever making that next step. So for me we need to change what we have been doiny cause clearly not working. If that is moving players around then I like the discussion.

 

[franklin2323]

Yes to all of that. We'll see if he makes a fool out of me.

I think the spine as a whole need to improve. If we had a better 9 than Cleary would look better just like in Origin

 

[herbert henry1908]

I think the spine as a whole need to improve. If we had a better 9 than Cleary would look better just like in Origin

Eh?

He looked better in Origin? He hardly did anything in origin. No try assist, no line breaks assists, no tries.

He’s had much better games for us than he had in his 4.5 origin games.

 

[OldPanther]

Eh?

He looked better in Origin? He hardly did anything in origin. No try assist, no line breaks assists, no tries.

He’s had much better games for us than he had in his 4.5 origin games.

To be fair he had Cook, Malone, Tedesco, Turbo in the team. They are the best at what they do I think most halfback would look quiet.

 

[herbert henry1908]

To be fair he had Cook, Malone, Tedesco, Turbo in the team. They are the best at what they do I think most halfback would look quiet.

Maybe, but that’s not what I was responding to to.

 

[OldPanther]

Maybe, but that’s not what I was responding to to.

I must have missed something than because I was responding to your comment about his origin stats.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I must have missed something than because I was responding to your comment about his origin stats.

Franklin was saying Cleary was better in origin with good players around him, but he wasn’t.

He didn’t let the team down or anything, but he didn’t look better.

 

[OldPanther]

Franklin was saying Cleary was better in origin with good players around him, but he wasn’t.

He didn’t let the team down or anything, but he didn’t look better.

Oh yeah 100%. He was better Vs Sharks than any of his origin games.

 

[Pomoz]

I think the idea that Maloney has stifled Cleary is interesting. The stats give us no indication. This year, Maloney has 900 receipts of the ball, Cleary 943. Last year Cleary averaged 55 receipts a game, Maloney 51. This is virtually identical to this years averages. In my view, Cleary gets more than enough ball to show what he can do. In fact, with the naked eye, it looks more like Maloney plays better when Cleary isn't in the team.

Maybe they both stifle each other. Hold that thought. Last year we come equal 5th, they must have been doing something right. Mind you, Cleary missed a few games with injury and during that period Maloney led the team to equal top. Cleary had his best game last night without Maloney. Coincidence? Maybe, but in my view Maloney is not stopping Cleary showing what he can do.

 

[OldPanther]

I think the idea that Maloney has stifled Cleary is interesting. The stats give us no indication. This year, Maloney has 900 receipts of the ball, Cleary 943. Last year Cleary averaged 55 receipts a game, Maloney 51. This is virtually identical to this years averages. In my view, Cleary gets more than enough ball to show what he can do. In fact, with the naked eye, it looks more like Maloney plays better when Cleary isn't in the team.

Maybe they both stifle each other. Hold that thought. Last year we come equal 5th, they must have been doing something right. Mind you, Cleary missed a few games with injury and during that period Maloney led the team to equal top. Cleary had his best game last night without Maloney. Coincidence? Maybe, but in my view Maloney is not stopping Cleary showing what he can do.

It's not so much they don't get the ball, it's more like they get in each other's way in attack. The structure breaks down. Like you said we look better when each is the sole dominant half. This is something said about teams before. Two dominant halves don't work which is why Luai/Burton are a good 5/8 for us.