Rugby league in dire straits in NSW as Queensland leads the way

[Sam I Am]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/05/22/2578141.htm?section=sport

Fittler says the league may soon need to consider such proposals with the financial situation surrounding clubs like Cronulla.


"I think there's no doubt that at some stage we've got to smarten up," he said.


"If there's going to be limited teams in Sydney, which I think we've got to do, then we've got to do it.



"No one wants to see Cronulla fall out the way it's happening at the moment.


"But if clubs can make smart decisions and move to, whether it's the Central Coast or Sunshine Coast or whatever we see fit to the rugby league future, then that's the preferable way."

Fittler can see the writing on the wall. The Roosters, the team that has increased its crowd the most over the last decade, know the gig is up for the current number of teams in Sydney.

 

[adamkungl]

Fittler can see the writing on the wall. The Roosters, the team that has increased its crowd the most over the last decade, know the gig is up for the current number of teams in Sydney.

Whether you are correct about culling Sydney clubs or not, your information is poorly researched.

2 examples
- Fittler, in previous interviews earlier this year/late last year about Sydney and expansion, has suggested Coffs Harbour as a potential expansion. Credibility on this matter = 0. Sorry Freddy, but that's insanity at best.
- Your use of Roosters crowds as an example isn't such a great one. Our crowds are up this year, but in previous years our average has been towards the lower end of Sydney clubs.

 

[Timmah]

And to be completely fair, the Roosters get massive leg-ups from away support when they take on the Dragons (ANZAC Day) bi-annually and South Sydney (round 1) bi-annually. In general the Roosters struggle to pull a crowd, despite the perceived increase.

 

[Sam I Am]

Whether you are correct about culling Sydney clubs or not, your information is poorly researched.

2 examples
- Fittler, in previous interviews earlier this year/late last year about Sydney and expansion, has suggested Coffs Harbour as a potential expansion. Credibility on this matter = 0. Sorry Freddy, but that's insanity at best.
- Your use of Roosters crowds as an example isn't such a great one. Our crowds are up this year, but in previous years our average has been towards the lower end of Sydney clubs.

Fittler reads the problem well, but the solution poorly. Nonetheless, the Roosters know what is afoot.

With respect to Roosters crowds, it is their increase over the past decade that has been the highest of any Sydney team.

 

[Sam I Am]

And to be completely fair, the Roosters get massive leg-ups from away support when they take on the Dragons (ANZAC Day) bi-annually and South Sydney (round 1) bi-annually. In general the Roosters struggle to pull a crowd, despite the perceived increase.

The Sydney stats speak for themselves, all teams bar Cronulla (their problems are well documented), Manly (don't understand why) and Parramatta (one word: Fitzy.) are up on ten years ago.

All your stats do is tell me things in Sydney aren't as terrible as everyone fears, much like the panic over swine flu at the moment.

Mate, you contradict yourself every time you sit down at the keyboard! :lol::lol::lol:

 

[Timmah]

I never said it was a bad thing, I'm just saying the Roosters "increase" is aided by a few away crowds.

All crowd increases are good.

Perhaps you should read words and stop making assumptions on my behalf...

 

[Sam I Am]

I never said it was a bad thing, I'm just saying the Roosters "increase" is aided by a few away crowds.

All crowd increases are good.

Perhaps you should read words and stop making assumptions on my behalf...

No assumptions were made. It was in your own words.

And to be completely fair, the Roosters get massive leg-ups from away support when they take on the Dragons (ANZAC Day) bi-annually and South Sydney (round 1) bi-annually. In general the Roosters struggle to pull a crowd, despite the perceived increase.

You call it a "perceived increase" bolstered by away support. You admit they struggle to pull a crowd. In the ealier post you were saying crowds were good and genuinely up. You're out of your comfort zone when not transcribing team lists, aren't you?

"Troll, Mum, troll!" :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[Timmah]

I'm glad there's an ignore list for a reason. Keep playing the man instead of the ball, I'm not responding to your crap anymore. Hopefully you get banned again.

 

[Loudstrat]

Queenslanders still ignoring the fact that they have, at best, 12 NRL games, 2 finals, one origin and 2 internationals per year. 16 games. And the average Brisbanite is half as likely to attend a game as their Sydney counterpart.

Rather than force the culling of Sydney teams, aka 1997-99, how about we allow market forces to decide? Sadly, Cronulla is in the firing line, yet there are more instances in the last 15 years of non Sydney sides either dying or facing extinction.

No one props up Sydney teams as, say, the AFL does. While the poker machine tax and poor TV rights deals are lamentable, some clubs have faced pressure for decades. Their survival instinct outstrips their death rate.

With a better attendance to population ratio, more players developed, and the ability to attract the largest crowds in the League world, Sydney and NSW is hardly dying.

 

[Parramatta_Power]

Queenslanders still ignoring the fact that they have, at best, 12 NRL games, 2 finals, one origin and 2 internationals per year. 16 games. And the average Brisbanite is half as likely to attend a game as their Sydney counterpart.

Rather than force the culling of Sydney teams, aka 1997-99, how about we allow market forces to decide? Sadly, Cronulla is in the firing line, yet there are more instances in the last 15 years of non Sydney sides either dying or facing extinction.

No one props up Sydney teams as, say, the AFL does. While the poker machine tax and poor TV rights deals are lamentable, some clubs have faced pressure for decades. Their survival instinct outstrips their death rate.

With a better attendance to population ratio, more players developed, and the ability to attract the largest crowds in the League world, Sydney and NSW is hardly dying.

Well Put. Based on crowd figures anyway, Brisbane doesn't deserve a second side anyway. Until they get an average of 45,000 to their games then they can start taking.

 

[Sam I Am]

* deleted *

 

[Sam I Am]

Rather than force the culling of Sydney teams, aka 1997-99, how about we allow market forces to decide? Sadly, Cronulla is in the firing line, yet there are more instances in the last 15 years of non Sydney sides either dying or facing extinction.

What teams have been killed off by market forces in the last 15 years?

Western Reds? No. (Shut down by News in peace agreement, 1997)
Hunter Mariners? No. (Shut down by News in peace agreement, 1997)
SQ Crushers? No. (Shut down by ARL in peace agreement, 1997)
Adelaide Rams? No. (Shut down by News for a 14 team comp, 1998)
Gold Coast Chargers? No. (Shut down by ARL for a 14 team comp, 1998)

Although the market will force the NRL's hand (as evidenced by the large number of four figure crowds already this season) I don't believe that the NRL should be reactive and wait for those clubs to die. Rather, I think they should be proactive and plan a future the makes Sydney viable, and (hopefully) those clubs that couldn't hold on there viable in another location or form.

If the NRL plans, there are a lot of positives in front of us, a lot of opportunities.

Unfortunately, rugby league is not known for its forward thinking or planning.

 

[Bluebags1908]

In today's Rugby League Review magazine, the crowd statistics for 2009 are as follows:

CROWDS:
In Sydney - 678,878 (44 matches)
Average in Sydney - 15,429

Outside of Sydney - 773,880 (44 matches)
Average outside of Sydney - 17,599

Overall crowds - 1,452,758
Average per game - 16,509

So the crowds outside of Sydney are only 2,000 per game larger. Going by some on this forum, you would think the difference is 10,000-15,000.

If you take out the Broncos games, the attendances would be just about even. Until such time that EVERY out of Sydney club consistenty draws significantly more that EVERY Sydney team, then there is no justtification to bag Sydney crowds or call for the forced axing of Sydney teams.

But having said that - yes some Sydney crowds are disgraceful and clubs should try and market themselves better and offer better $$ deals (especially for families). But Sydney gets 102 games this year so it is inevitable that you are bound to get a few bad ones in the mix.

Over the last few seasons, Sydney crowds are historically higher than they have ever been and they are only going to get bigger.

Sydney crowds can be improved upon, and I think there is scope and potential for huge improvement in Sydney crowds in the coming years.

 

[Timmah]

The way I see it, if Sydney wasn't viable, it would have already collapsed.

 

[Sam I Am]

In today's Rugby League Review magazine, the crowd statistics for 2009 are as follows:

CROWDS:
In Sydney - 678,878 (44 matches)
Average in Sydney - 15,429

Outside of Sydney - 773,880 (44 matches)
Average outside of Sydney - 17,599

Overall crowds - 1,452,758
Average per game - 16,509

So the crowds outside of Sydney are only 2,000 per game larger. Going by some on this forum, you would think the difference is 10,000-15,000.

Since I am "some on this forum" I would like to jump in. The statistic in RLR is only partially useful. "Outside of Sydney" is not terribly useful for seeing where the strengths and weaknesses of the game lie.

Perhaps a more meaningful snapshot would include:

• Sydney
• Other NSW
• ACT
• Victoria
• Queensland (which indeed probably is 10-15000 higher) :sarcasm:
• NZ

As for how some Sydney teams are going, I am the first to say that there are some pleasing things going on. But...

But having said that - yes some Sydney crowds are disgraceful and clubs should try and market themselves better and offer better $$ deals (especially for families). But Sydney gets 102 games this year so it is inevitable that you are bound to get a few bad ones in the mix.

There are some bad games in the mix. Indeed Sydney teams are not afraid of shunting their bad games off to other cities (a fact that drags down the outside of Sydney statistic... eg Adelaide). They need to build the support up (such as is happening with memberships) so that a game against the Cowboys or the Storm (for example) doesn't equate to 7-8000 people at the ground. We have a great game. Surely we can aim higher?

Over the last few seasons, Sydney crowds are historically higher than they have ever been and they are only going to get bigger.

Again, the stats here are skewed. Some teams like Wests Tigers are doing really well compared to the averages Balmain/Wests got, but most of the other teams have only had modest increases over the last decade, and some teams (such as Manly and Parramatta) have had disturbing decreases.

Sydney crowds can be improved upon, and I think there is scope and potential for huge improvement in Sydney crowds in the coming years.

Agreed. And "improvement" doesn't mean "kill Sydney teams/bring back Super League", despite wha some people might put in my mouth. It means having a honest look at what the game can sustain and how it can go forward successfully.

 

[Sam I Am]

The way I see it, if Sydney wasn't viable, it would have already collapsed.

Nobody is saying that "Sydney" isn't viable. Just that nine teams in Sydney isn't. There is a difference.

 

[Blind Freddy]

Nobody is saying that "Sydney" isn't viable. Just that nine teams in Sydney isn't. There is a difference.

So how would you fix it??

 

[Sam I Am]

So how would you fix it??

I have answered that question several times in the last five pages of this thread.

 

[lockyrulz]

The way I see it, if Sydney wasn't viable, it would have already collapsed.

How would it go without a salary cap?

 

[Sam I Am]

How would it go without a salary cap?

Probably down to four teams within 18 months. :sarcasm: