Rugby league in dire straits in NSW as Queensland leads the way

[Timmah]

Since I am "some on this forum" I would like to jump in. The statistic in RLR is only partially useful. "Outside of Sydney" is not terribly useful for seeing where the strengths and weaknesses of the game lie.

Perhaps a more meaningful snapshot would include:

• Sydney
• Other NSW
• ACT
• Victoria
• Queensland (which indeed probably is 10-15000 higher) :sarcasm:
• NZ

As for how some Sydney teams are going, I am the first to say that there are some pleasing things going on. But...

Actually, you'll probably find that it's not "Queensland" that is 10-15k higher, but solely the Broncos. The Titans and Cowboys averages are both down on previous seasons, their most recent crowds of 11k and 16k leaving a lot to be desired compared to their usual lofty standards. To be fair it's really Brisbane that's carrying QLD.

There are some bad games in the mix. Indeed Sydney teams are not afraid of shunting their bad games off to other cities (a fact that drags down the outside of Sydney statistic... eg Adelaide). They need to build the support up (such as is happening with memberships) so that a game against the Cowboys or the Storm (for example) doesn't equate to 7-8000 people at the ground. We have a great game. Surely we can aim higher?

When there are 102 games within a 100km radius in Sydney compared with just 15-20 in the same radius in Brisbane, of course there's going to be a disparity. No matter how good your product is, you're not going to be able to maintain peak interest for an entire six months when you have a saturation of the product.

Again, the stats here are skewed. Some teams like Wests Tigers are doing really well compared to the averages Balmain/Wests got, but most of the other teams have only had modest increases over the last decade, and some teams (such as Manly and Parramatta) have had disturbing decreases.

The problem you've got with your stats that you're using to make those comparisons is that you've grabbed the end-of-season 1999 stats, ignored 2000-2008 and used half-season stats for 2009. The statistics don't paint a terribly accurate picture.

Agreed. And "improvement" doesn't mean "kill Sydney teams/bring back Super League", despite wha some people might put in my mouth. It means having a honest look at what the game can sustain and how it can go forward successfully.

The only suggestion you've made is to rationalise Sydney...

Nobody is saying that "Sydney" isn't viable. Just that nine teams in Sydney isn't. There is a difference.

...Case in point.

How would it go without a salary cap?

What, so Brisbane can pay players hundreds of millions?

FMD, we already pay players far too much and the fame and $$ go to their head as it is. Do we really want to let the cap go and risk that? Dynasties are good for some clubs but there will be massive losers if the cap disappears. Your agenda is clearly to advance Brisbane, not Rugby League.

 

[Timmah]

Probably down to four teams within 18 months. :sarcasm:

Do you honestly think that would be good for RL? :?

 

[lockyrulz]

What, so Brisbane can pay players hundreds of millions?

Wow, talk about missing the point. Becoming a posting style for you.

FMD, we already pay players far too much and the fame and $$ go to their head as it is. Do we really want to let the cap go and risk that? Dynasties are good for some clubs but there will be massive losers if the cap disappears. Your agenda is clearly to advance Brisbane, not Rugby League.

See above.

 

[Blind Freddy]

I have answered that question several times in the last five pages of this thread.

Between all the insults which i cannot be f**ked reading through, all i'm seeing from you is somebody presumably from QLD trying to show there is a problem in Sydney.

It's like the League Unlimited equivalent of a chimpanzee sitting up a tree in his enclosure at a zoo, flinging poo over the moat at all the onlookers who are trying to find some form of value for looking in the first place...

If your solution is to forcibly kull teams in one swift stroke then you will do more harm than good.

Give a plan and a time frame and how you'd do it without pissing off the fans.

 

[Sam I Am]

Do you honestly think that would be good for RL? :?

Where did I say it was?

 

[Timmah]

Wow, talk about missing the point. Becoming a posting style for you.

See above.

Well, go on, explain what removing the salary cap would achieve, wise one...

 

[Sam I Am]

Actually, you'll probably find that it's not "Queensland" that is 10-15k higher, but solely the Broncos. The Titans and Cowboys averages are both down on previous seasons, their most recent crowds of 11k and 16k leaving a lot to be desired compared to their usual lofty standards. To be fair it's really Brisbane that's carrying QLD.

Both NQ and GC are thousands higher than Sydney, but it's true enough that Brisbane's stratospheric figures skew the Queensland average. What I don't get is why there isn't a single team in Sydney that views that as an aspirational goal.

When there are 102 games within a 100km radius in Sydney compared with just 15-20 in the same radius in Brisbane, of course there's going to be a disparity. No matter how good your product is, you're not going to be able to maintain peak interest for an entire six months when you have a saturation of the product.

Melbourne doesn't seem to have a problem with that sort of saturation. Why does Sydney? Honest question. Why?

The problem you've got with your stats that you're using to make those comparisons is that you've grabbed the end-of-season 1999 stats, ignored 2000-2008 and used half-season stats for 2009. The statistics don't paint a terribly accurate picture.

I got those statistics at your express invitation. Furthermore, I also in an earlier post looked over the last five years. The picture is no different. You read and responded to the post, so don't play ignorant now.

The only suggestion you've made is to rationalise Sydney...

Rationalise Sydney does not mean kill all the clubs or forceably remove them overnight, despite what you might think. I have gone into detail.

What, so Brisbane can pay players hundreds of millions?

Again, why are Sydney teams afraid of success? I thought we live in an aspirational society where people strived to succeed. Instead, Sydney rugby league clubs are largely supported by a market inhibiting structure that brings all teams down to the lowest common denominator. Hardly reflective of free market Australia.

FMD, we already pay players far too much and the fame and $$ go to their head as it is. Do we really want to let the cap go and risk that? Dynasties are good for some clubs but there will be massive losers if the cap disappears. Your agenda is clearly to advance Brisbane, not Rugby League.

It isn't for me to determine how much players get paid. Or lawyers or night fillers for that matter. It is for the market. Do you want to mandate what doctors get paid as well?

Between all the insults which i cannot be f**ked reading through, all i'm seeing from you is somebody presumably from QLD trying to show there is a problem in Sydney.

If your solution is to forcibly kull teams in one swift stroke then you will do more harm than good.

Give a plan and a time frame abd how you'd do it without pissing off the fans.

BF, you've just said that your too lazy to read what I wrote. Why should I rewrite it? Don't put words in my mouth just because you can't be bothered engaging meaningfully.

 

[Sam I Am]

Well, go on, explain what removing the salary cap would achieve, wise one...

You've missed the point by a mile. The question about the salary cap was asked to determine whether Sydney teams are viable. I don't think anybody is suggesting that it be removed.

Talk about wilfully misinterpretting something.

 

[lockyrulz]

Well, go on, explain what removing the salary cap would achieve, wise one...

The point I was making oh dim one, was that stating that Sydney is fine is a flawed argument, becuase not only is sydney not fine, it is only surviving on the basis of a crutch.

By that logic you could just solve leagues money problems over night, just reduce the cap substatially and sudenly your overheads become significantly less.

League can do better given the chance. How much do we hold the game back in order to retain 9 clubs in Sydney?

 

[Blind Freddy]

BF, you've just said that your too lazy to read what I wrote. Why should I rewrite it? Don't put words in my mouth just because you can't be bothered engaging meaningfully.

Ok i've had a very quick scan throughout the thread and i'm yet to see a solution offered or your vision for the perfect Sydney NRL representation, just numerous posts trying to prove that there is a problem.... Which i've already staded i tend to somewhat agree with.

Would you mind pointing out for a rather lazy yet intrested reader such as myself as to where i can find this solution?

 

[Sam I Am]

Firstly, I didn't claim to have a comprehensive 75 point plan online, although you have imputed some kind of final solution to me:

If your solution is to forcibly kull teams in one swift stroke then you will do more harm than good.

Ok i've had a very quick scan throughout the thread and i'm yet to see a solution offered or your vision for the perfect Sydney NRL representation, just numerous posts trying to prove that there is a problem.... Which i've already staded i tend to somewhat agree with.

Didn't you and I have a discussion of my idea for the NRL in Sydney about three or four pages ago? Around here: http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=322617&page=30

 

[Loudstrat]

There are some bad games in the mix. Indeed Sydney teams are not afraid of shunting their bad games off to other cities (a fact that drags down the outside of Sydney statistic... eg Adelaide). They need to build the support up (such as is happening with memberships) so that a game against the Cowboys or the Storm (for example) doesn't equate to 7-8000 people at the ground. We have a great game. Surely we can aim higher?

LOL. Shunting off barely one game per year in total of all clubs!

What teams have been killed off by market forces in the last 15 years?

Western Reds? No. (Shut down by News in peace agreement, 1997)
Hunter Mariners? No. (Shut down by News in peace agreement, 1997)
SQ Crushers? No. (Shut down by ARL in peace agreement, 1997)
Adelaide Rams? No. (Shut down by News for a 14 team comp, 1998)
Gold Coast Chargers? No. (Shut down by ARL for a 14 team comp, 1998)

Reds and Rams - News simply ceased funding. The boards shut down the clubs.

Gold Coast failed in 1995 as the seagulls. Restarted in 1996 as the Chargers.

Hunter hawked themselves around as a merger partner - no takers.

Crushers went bust.

Auckland went belly up - was bailed out by Watson and rebadged as NZ - with new colours.

Newy almost went belly up - eventually saved after many years of convincing Newcastle Wests to intervene financially.

Illawarra merged with Saints in the nick of time.

That's 8 - against 3 from Sydney. Norths - and not from poor crowds or sponsorship - and 2 almosts from Wests and Balmain.

8-3 Saints winning score in the 63 gf.

Hardly a ringing endorsement for the 'Sydney is dying' brigade.

 

[Blind Freddy]

Firstly, I didn't claim to have a comprehensive 75 point plan online, although you have imputed some kind of final solution to me:

You've hinted as to what you'd like to see....

Was just keen to see a productive vision at what a QLD'er wants to see happen in "that other group of people's backyard" named Sydney.

Coincidently i have a fair idea of what a person from Sydney's version of fixing it is, and its always along the similar lines of "merge or kill off any other club but mine"

Didn't you and I have a discussion of my idea for the NRL in Sydney about three or four pages ago? Around here: http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=322617&page=30

I guess i'll have to wait...

 

[Sam I Am]

LOL. Shunting off barely one game per year in total of all clubs!

There has been more than one. Hence the use of "eg." meaning "for example".

Reds and Rams - News simply ceased funding. The boards shut down the clubs.

And so on you go through it. Maybe you are too young to have lived through it. Who knows. Either way, "shutting off funding" is what they did to kill the teams in the peace agreement. That is how it happened.

Gold Coast failed in 1995 as the seagulls. Restarted in 1996 as the Chargers.

The Seagulls closed up shop because Seagulls leagues club pulled out. It wasn't market failure, as evidenced by the fact that the Chargers immediately filled the void. And when they were shut out by the ARL they still had significant cash reserves. No market failure.

Crushers went bust.

Arguably market failure, however, the Crushers were born in the same year as the Super League war (1995) and the trials and tribulations of that meant they were a prime target for rationalising at the end of the split season (1997).

Auckland went belly up - was bailed out by Watson and rebadged as NZ - with new colours.

Again, not market failure. Market failure means that the market cannot sustain the team. The Auckland Warriors went under due to the mismanagement of the Tainui tribe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tainui

Newy almost went belly up - eventually saved after many years of convincing Newcastle Wests to intervene financially.

Interestingly, the ARL dug into the Gold Coast Chargers cash in the late 90s/early 2000s to bail out the Knights at one stage. Either way, you may have a market that genuinely cannot sustain a team here.

Illawarra merged with Saints in the nick of time.

Indeed, you may have another market that cannot sustain a team here, especially given the ongoing financial woes, and the recent life saving injection of capital from WIN.

Hardly a ringing endorsement for the 'Sydney is dying' brigade.

Neither here nor there, because I am not arguing that Sydney hasn't sustained teams in the past, rather that it will not be able to do so in the future.

 

[Sam I Am]

You've hinted as to what you'd like to see....

Was just keen to see a productive vision at what a QLD'er wants to see happen in "that other group of people's backyard" named Sydney.

Coincidently i have a fair idea of what a person from Sydney's version of fixing it is, and its always along the similar lines of "merge or kill off any other club but mine"

I guess i'll have to wait...

I'll be brief. I don't have a comprehensive list of clubs that I would get rid of. I am sure that I posted somewhere in this thread that my gut feeling was that Sydney can probably support about six teams. I don't think any should be given an ultimatum or forced out. I think the NRL should plan ahead, be proactive, do everything it can to ensure that the competition thrives in Sydney.

How it does that, as I said before, is up to the NRL. I am not on the board.

I note that mergers or relocations if done properly are not the end of the world. However, they cannot be done in a half-arsed way. I needs a lot of planning, and it needs to be stuck to.

Example #1: Wests Tigers I think are the poster boys of a merger that works. I have no suggestions of which teams would consider doing this, so don't ask.

Example #2: Sorry to go to AFL, but the Brisbane Lions are an excellent idea of how to do a relocation. Solid following in Brisbane (I am sorry to say :x) and still maintain a following in Melbourne (even wearing their old colours when they go back). They have somehow pulled off the trick of having two homes and two identities and remaining true to both of them.

Example of how not to do it: Cronulla saying they will play a few games in Adelaide, half a dozen in Gosford and remain Cronulla. They commit to nowhere and try and milk cash from everywhere. The public are smarter than that (Timmah notwithstanding :sarcasm and will see through this in no time. Any sort of relocation needs to be genuine and stuck to.

Just rambling ideas. Ultimately, I think we need to maintain the ties and traditions of the current teams and somehow rationalise in a way that minimises the number of people disenfranchised and maximises the number of new and continuing fans.

 

[Sam I Am]

Was just keen to see a productive vision at what a QLD'er wants to see happen in "that other group of people's backyard" named Sydney.

By the way, I don't think of any part of the competition like that. The NRL is all of our back yard, and we all need to look after it. Any part of the competition being unhealthy ultimately impacts on the other parts.

I think that is where this sort of discussion gets bogged down. We all want the game to flourish, but a century of interstate rivalry means that we both view the other side with deep suspicion. Every Queenslander thinks that NSW wants the old Sydney comp back, and every cockroach thinks that we want to close all of their teams down and reimpose Superleague.

Neither are true!

 

[Ziggy the God]

If it wasn't bad enough watching our no hopers cop a caning from the Raiders and put us in spoon contention, I log on and this thread is still going.

Here it is nice and simple:

My team may be shiate, they may make me want to pull the rest of my hair out at the game and throw the remote through the screen.

At the end of the day, they are my shiate team, so keep your filthy mits away.

Cheers (going back to the corner to sulk)

 

[Sam I Am]

If it wasn't bad enough watching our no hopers cop a caning from the Raiders and put us in spoon contention, I log on and this thread is still going.

Do you really think a thread with this name will die off in Origin week???

 

[Ziggy the God]

Do you really think a thread with this name will die off in Origin week???

No I didn't, but I thought there was an outside chance (going back to the corner now). :lol:

Cheers

 

[Sam I Am]

No I didn't, but I thought there was an outside chance (going back to the corner now). :lol:

Cheers

If Queensland lose by thirty points tomorrow night then maybe it will drop of the main page for three weeks or so.