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Rumours and Stuff

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
73,398
Well it isn't like we haven't given him a fair chance. 9yrs is a good run.
You're missing the point. It's very likely Arthur has done as much as any coach could have done given our resources relative to the bigger clubs. We need a fair bit of luck in consecutive weeks come finals time, and we have so far not had that luck. We might get luckier this year or next or after that under a new coach. But it won't be the coach that changed our fortunes, it will be fortune itself. It's also possible that we will gain some recruitment/retention advantages (e.g. TPAs and wealthy benefactors who can provide investment opportunities to players and jobs to their family members) in the short term that will reduce our reliance on luck in any given game. I really think coaching is the least of our problems. We are not a bad team, in fact we are quite good, but better coaching won't make us elite on the field. That is the role of everyone at the club who has a hand in recruitment and retention of playing staff. The coach is only a very small part of that. I think whatever would be spent on a better coach than Arthur might actually be better spent on poaching some recruitment/retention staff, although without the fat cheque book of other clubs the best staff are unlikely to want to come here.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
73,398
What happened when Halser left Manly after winning the GF in 2011?
And Bennett left Saints to join the Knights?
And Cleary left Warriors to coach Penrith in 2012?

They can do it when it is known and they are professional mate.

#edit

Is it any different than a player knowing 12 months in advance he will be with a different club?
Also, the big clubs don't lump all that future planning on the coach. They have an entire football operations staff to do that. The coach gives some input to who he wants and what they're worth but his job is to coach the team he is given, not (re-)build the club from the ground up. That model ended around 20 years ago.
 

strider

Post Whore
Messages
75,759
What happened when Halser left Manly after winning the GF in 2011?
And Bennett left Saints to join the Knights?
And Cleary left Warriors to coach Penrith in 2012?

They can do it when it is known and they are professional mate.

#edit

Is it any different than a player knowing 12 months in advance he will be with a different club?
of course it is different to a player ... players turn up and do what they are told .... they aren't planning rosters and worrying about salary caps and in negotiations with multiple players and worrying about junior programs etc etc etc

sure it's not impossible, but its far from good situation imo
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
11,094
of course it is different to a player ... players turn up and do what they are told .... they aren't planning rosters and worrying about salary caps and in negotiations with multiple players and worrying about junior programs etc etc etc

sure it's not impossible, but its far from good situation imo
That's why we have a Head of Football and a Recruitment and Retention Committee.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
11,648
Bellamy was the only real rookie out of those you mention…..

Bennett was hardly a rookie coach identified by the Broncos…he was co coach of the Raiders that made the GF in 1987 and before that had a lot of experience coaching in the QLD cup comp (which was on par with coaching in the “winfield” cup) additionally he had also coached QLD in origin…

Robinson had head coaching experience in uk super league coaching the French side for a few years…

CC has no head coaching experience and has only ever really coached at the panthers…..he may become a great coach but he could also become another Barrett, O’Brien, Brennan…..

None had Winfield cup or NRL head coaching experience other then Bennett, but not on his own (which I implied if you read my post carefully) is what I stated and stand by.

Everything else they had coaching experience at is like reserve grade or NSW Cup level in comparison. Even SOO isn't the same, cue Meninga as an example.

We are all guessing in regards to how anyone will go, at what is now know as the NRL, until they have actually done it. When a coach is in the hot seat and on his own as head coach, that is when you see what they are really made of over time. Dragging teams out of losing streaks and needing to rebuild confidence and rosters and then wining premierships all in the face of the most hostile sporting media in this country. It sorts the men from the boys. Even if you gave them all the resources in the would around them, some can but some can't.

Comparing Super League or QLD Cup to the NRL is ridiculous and that is why you hear everyone state that all these Non NRL coaches all present a risk because you don't know how they will go in the pressure cooker that is the NRL. It generally doesn't have anything to do with the coaching side of it, they all know the game, it's dealing with all the other stuff and in particular the personalities that a coach needs to manage at every level of the game. Some do it well but others don't or are just ok with it.

Look at Mick Potter who is currently the interim Coach of the Dogs, they asked Anasta on 360 the other week if Potter does a good job with the Dogs this season, should he be considered for the head coaching job long term. Anasta's firm rely was no. He wouldn't give any firm details as to why not other then some vague, 'knowing Potter as I do as a coach he is very good, but I wouldn't give him the roll long term'. It's not his knowledge of the game he has issues with, but all the other stuff, he knows that he wouldn't be the right man long term to handle it.

Some guys, you get the feeling they will handle it, but once in the spin dryer they shrivel up and burn out quickly. It takes a very special type of loving but serial killer mentality to be the very best head coach material. Some can do it for a short period of time and others can make a career of it and be middle of the road for a decade or two without winning the big one, but eventually they dropout as solids but losers. The very few that can hang around decade after decade and keep going with constant success of finals and The occasional grand final are indeed rare.

Those four I have mentioned are by far the best of the last 40 years. Cleary is now settled in a club that he has full control of and a roster that he helped build. He will no doubt win another premiership or two at least this decade cementing his legacy up their with the others. Like I said, people don't like him for whatever reason, but he is a brilliant coach that can build rosters and get them to GF's and now we can see he can win them too. It took him longer for many reasons, every mans journey is different and he got their the long way around.

But getting back to C. Ciraldo as a coach, yes I agree he is like any other coach that hasn't coached as sole head coach in the NRL before and therefore a risk no matter what other experiences he may have had. But that's not much different then the 4 top coaches of our game today. They all have to start somewhere. I don't get your point. Getting married is a risk, having children is a risk, joining Bones on Bones is a risk. What, we just don't take them? Risks are part of life mate as you do your critical thinking when you pick out your spouse or join a exclusively hot Gentlemen's Club, you assess the risk versus reward components and hopefully take the plunge.

Hey you want to join a Club?
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
11,648
How the f**k can you compare to what Stuart did in 2002 to what Robinson didn’t do in 2016? You started off well with the Cleary example but blew way too soon and then tried to continue with a flaccid cock.

He hardly was doing well with the Cleary example. People forget that only one other coach could do what Cleary did with that Warriors team, but did it better then the one year wonder Daniel Anderson. Cleary built that roster from 2006 onwards and slowly put it together to make the GF in 2008. If Ego boy Gus hadn't poached him, only to dump him because he wants to be the king and do it his way, I have no doubt Cleary would have kept at it and gotten it eventually. Notice since Cleary left that the Warriors pathways have been going backwards and are in steady decline to the point now that they don't have decent juniors coming through almost at all.

Again something Cleary has always been excellent at getting right. People shouldn't judge him on the Tigers gig. That club was a basket case and he was reacting to the politics of that club that were demanding a quick fix. So when he got the opportunity to leave and go to a strong roster again, one that he had a major hand in building anyway, he did what Bennett would do, and he ran. Who could blame him, I, you and even Pou, we all would have done exactly the same thing. And look at him now in sight of his 3rd GF with the Panthers and second Premiership. You would have to say, smart and excellent choice wouldn't you?

As for Stuart, the man couldn't even keep a premiership Ferrari team that was gift wrapped for him longer then a year before he systematically pulled it apart piece by piece until Uncle Nick just said 'get the fu*k out of here you clown' and booted his arse to the street. That guy is just on another level of ego. His coaching has gotten better, but his ego is hard to keep in check.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
11,648
Simply that even if the great Trent Robinson can only win six games in a season at a powerful club like the Roosters, how can you criticise Arthur for doing the same at a club like ours? Likewise, Ricky Stuart won even fewer games in his season at Parra but still managed to win more than six games in his worst year at Easts.
You’ve gone off half cocked again, haven’t you?

You know that it is well documented that Robinson knew and told certain people that it was his plan and the Chooks needed to go through that terrible year in 2016 to get to the other side and he was confident of winning the premiership the following year and even telling people that they would win it in 2017. Well he made the top 4 in 2017 and won it the year after in 2018, so you could call him a failure I suppose.

Not like our winner of a head coach though that tells everyone that his plan is for us to win the collision and damn it if he doesn't do just that...well at least most of the time.
 

hindy111

Immortal
Messages
48,347
You're missing the point. It's very likely Arthur has done as much as any coach could have done given our resources relative to the bigger clubs. We need a fair bit of luck in consecutive weeks come finals time, and we have so far not had that luck. We might get luckier this year or next or after that under a new coach. But it won't be the coach that changed our fortunes, it will be fortune itself. It's also possible that we will gain some recruitment/retention advantages (e.g. TPAs and wealthy benefactors who can provide investment opportunities to players and jobs to their family members) in the short term that will reduce our reliance on luck in any given game. I really think coaching is the least of our problems. We are not a bad team, in fact we are quite good, but better coaching won't make us elite on the field. That is the role of everyone at the club who has a hand in recruitment and retention of playing staff. The coach is only a very small part of that. I think whatever would be spent on a better coach than Arthur might actually be better spent on poaching some recruitment/retention staff, although without the fat cheque book of other clubs the best staff are unlikely to want to come here.

I'm not saying your aren't right. I think there is a lot of right in what you have to say. Just like I think Ricky Stuart is a good coach in a tough gig.
But at some point we will need to pull the pin and get someone new. Could end up a rough ride. I think that will come down to the long contracts given to Rcg,Jnr and Gutherson. Ok for next couple of year but high chance their form dips as age and we get a terrible return on 3 guys on huge coin.
 

Avenger

Referee
Messages
28,947
We need to maintain our momentum to stay in touch with the top 4. Again our for and against is ordinary which is why I think that d we cannot win the comp this year unless we go against the norm and replicate the Wests Tigers in 2005 and win it on the back of our attack.

We almost did it that way in 2009.

This weeks game against Souths is a danger game for us.
 

hindy111

Immortal
Messages
48,347
None had Winfield cup or NRL head coaching experience other then Bennett, but not on his own (which I implied if you read my post carefully) is what I stated and stand by.

Everything else they had coaching experience at is like reserve grade or NSW Cup level in comparison. Even SOO isn't the same, cue Meninga as an example.

We are all guessing in regards to how anyone will go, at what is now know as the NRL, until they have actually done it. When a coach is in the hot seat and on his own as head coach, that is when you see what they are really made of over time. Dragging teams out of losing streaks and needing to rebuild confidence and rosters and then wining premierships all in the face of the most hostile sporting media in this country. It sorts the men from the boys. Even if you gave them all the resources in the would around them, some can but some can't.

Comparing Super League or QLD Cup to the NRL is ridiculous and that is why you hear everyone state that all these Non NRL coaches all present a risk because you don't know how they will go in the pressure cooker that is the NRL. It generally doesn't have anything to do with the coaching side of it, they all know the game, it's dealing with all the other stuff and in particular the personalities that a coach needs to manage at every level of the game. Some do it well but others don't or are just ok with it.

Look at Mick Potter who is currently the interim Coach of the Dogs, they asked Anasta on 360 the other week if Potter does a good job with the Dogs this season, should he be considered for the head coaching job long term. Anasta's firm rely was no. He wouldn't give any firm details as to why not other then some vague, 'knowing Potter as I do as a coach he is very good, but I wouldn't give him the roll long term'. It's not his knowledge of the game he has issues with, but all the other stuff, he knows that he wouldn't be the right man long term to handle it.

Some guys, you get the feeling they will handle it, but once in the spin dryer they shrivel up and burn out quickly. It takes a very special type of loving but serial killer mentality to be the very best head coach material. Some can do it for a short period of time and others can make a career of it and be middle of the road for a decade or two without winning the big one, but eventually they dropout as solids but losers. The very few that can hang around decade after decade and keep going with constant success of finals and The occasional grand final are indeed rare.

Those four I have mentioned are by far the best of the last 40 years. Cleary is now settled in a club that he has full control of and a roster that he helped build. He will no doubt win another premiership or two at least this decade cementing his legacy up their with the others. Like I said, people don't like him for whatever reason, but he is a brilliant coach that can build rosters and get them to GF's and now we can see he can win them too. It took him longer for many reasons, every mans journey is different and he got their the long way around.

But getting back to C. Ciraldo as a coach, yes I agree he is like any other coach that hasn't coached as sole head coach in the NRL before and therefore a risk no matter what other experiences he may have had. But that's not much different then the 4 top coaches of our game today. They all have to start somewhere. I don't get your point. Getting married is a risk, having children is a risk, joining Bones on Bones is a risk. What, we just don't take them? Risks are part of life mate as you do your critical thinking when you pick out your spouse or join a exclusively hot Gentlemen's Club, you assess the risk versus reward components and hopefully take the plunge.

Hey you want to join a Club?

Pou may front load his effort and chase the collision.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
11,648
We need to maintain our momentum to stay in touch with the top 4. Again our for and against is ordinary which is why I think that d we cannot win the comp this year unless we go against the norm and replicate the Wests Tigers in 2005 and win it on the back of our attack.

We almost did it that way in 2009.

This weeks game against Souths is a danger game for us.

Currently every game for our team is a danger game.

And I agree we can not win the comp this year.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
73,398
I'm not saying your aren't right. I think there is a lot of right in what you have to say. Just like I think Ricky Stuart is a good coach in a tough gig.
But at some point we will need to pull the pin and get someone new. Could end up a rough ride. I think that will come down to the long contracts given to Rcg,Jnr and Gutherson. Ok for next couple of year but high chance their form dips as age and we get a terrible return on 3 guys on huge coin.
You don’t know they’re on huge coin. The long contracts are likely to keep their price down per year. They would be happy with the contract security. It’s a trade off.
 
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