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lucablight

First Grade
Messages
6,086
Given the performance of those clubs relative to the rest of the comp do you deny those advantages exist?

Or do all the other clubs just have bald shit coaches?
I don’t know. I don’t look at successful clubs and automatically assume they have extra advantages we don’t have to explain it. There are a myriad of possible explanations. Did Penriths extra salary cap space pop up in 2020 and was hiding away before then?
I don’t know if I’m looking at everything through a blue and gold lens but I don’t see any teams with our level of success being gutted. It’s bizarre.
 

Poupou Escobar

Post Whore
Messages
84,801
I don’t know. I don’t look at successful clubs and automatically assume they have extra advantages we don’t have to explain it. There are a myriad of possible explanations. Did Penriths extra salary cap space pop up in 2020 and was hiding away before then?
I don’t know if I’m looking at everything through a blue and gold lens but I don’t see any teams with our level of success being gutted. It’s bizarre.
It's only bizarre if you don't understand it, and you won't understand it if you don't try and understand why the clubs that win consistently manage to do so.

Premierships are the result of being competitive and having some luck over a period of time. They aren't something that is achieved by taking a bottom ranked club (e.g. Parramatta in 2013) and inevitably building over a predefined number of years until the guaranteed grand final win magically occurs, followed by a rebuild. If there were any guarantees of this every club would be doing it, and they would all take turns going through this cycle and winning competitions. The fact of a salary cap might lull merkins into thinking this is the sort of consistently fair and level competition that we should have. But there is so much more than just the salary cap at play. Some clubs are just stronger than others, so when they peak they are (almost) guaranteed to win a premiership within a certain timeframe. Other clubs are less strong and so when they peak their 'premiership window' is smaller and their chances of winning the required three consecutive finals games is much lower. It doesn't mean they're no chance but maybe in a two to four year period they will be a 25% or 30% chance of winning a comp. They might jag a comp in that time (e.g. Sharks in 2016-18) or they might not (e.g. Raiders in 2019-20). It takes some luck. But we can tell the strong clubs by their overall win rate over a number of years.

Here's a measure of how strong each club has been over the past decade (regular season wins) compared with number of premierships:

ClubRegular season winsPremierships
Storm1733
Chooks1463
Bunnies1441
Panthers1381
Sharks1251
Seagulls1240
Broncos1180
Raiders1180
Cowboys1151
Eels1150
Bulldogs1060
Dragons1010
Warriors970
Tigers920
Knights880
Titans880

Now leaving aside the fact that some of these teams haven't been equally strong across the entire ten year period (e.g. we have improved in the second half of the decade while the Dogs have declined), we can infer some probabilities from this table that we can't confirm nor deny, but at least form an evidence-based theory about how often certain clubs should expect a premiership in a ten year period based on how strong they are over that period.

The key data points that show the probabilistic nature of this are the ten year win numbers for Cronulla (1 premiership) and Manly (0 premierships). It is quite possible that a team winning ~52% of games over ten years has a 50% chance of also winning a premiership in that time. In this decade Cronulla's coin turned up heads while Manly's turned up tails. Below those two we have Parramatta, North Qld, Canberra and Brisbane, each with about 49% win rate. One in four of these teams won a comp in that time so perhaps their chance of winning during the decade was 25%. The Cowboys got lucky while the other three didn't. The six teams below them had premiership chances somewhere less than 25% (perhaps 0% in some cases) and none of them got lucky. Likewise at the top, the Storm won 73% of their games over the decade in question. Maybe they were a 99% chance of winning one, with reduced chances of two and three (and four) premierships during the decade. The three clubs between Cronulla and Melbourne all won a similar number of games (between 58% and 62%) over the ten years and each won at least one premiership. Maybe they were all 90% chance (or more) of winning at least one. Maybe they were all a 50% chance of winning two, but Souths and Penrith were both unlucky, while the Roosters with three premierships were very lucky over that decade?

The point is when you look at very small, cherry-picked data sets like week two finals wins you will be fooled by your human desire for narratives, when the reality is in the much bigger data. Here's the same table with week three finals appearances included (column four is preliminary finals per 100 regular season wins):

ClubReg.winsPrelimsPrelims/100 reg.winsPremierships
Storm17384.63
Chooks14664.13
Bunnies14474.91
Panthers13832.21
Sharks12521.61
Seagulls12432.40
Broncos11821.70
Raiders11832.50
Cowboys11532.61
Eels11500.00
Bulldogs10621.90
Dragons10100.00
Warriors9700.00
Tigers9200.00
Knights8811.10
Titans8800.00

Here we see a few glaring outliers, specifically Parramatta, Canterbury and Newcastle. We have underachieved for converting regular season wins to preliminary finals appearances but how much has luck been a factor? We know that the smaller the sample the more it is skewed by randomness. We have played in six games where a win would have gotten us to the preliminary final and lost all of them. But three of those were against the eventual premiers, one was against the losing grand finalists that year and another one was against the Storm (one of three total). The sixth (vs Souths in 2020) was the most winnable, but we had three of four outside backs unavailable from the previous week (Sivo, Jennings, Ferguson). It's horrific luck. But even worse luck is our most recent premiership window has coincided with the emergence of some incredibly powerful opponents. Three teams won 20+ games last year. That's never happened in the NRL era. In fact most years no team wins 20 games. Since 1998 only nine teams have won 20 games (actually eight plus Penrith's win rate in the shortened 2020 season was enough to win 21 games from 24) in a season and a full third of them occurred last year, during our premiership window. And this is why, at our peak, we might not win a grand final, and still lose a bunch of players to the salary cap. The point of premiership windows is that they close whether you won a premiership or not. They don't stay open until you win, and there's no foregone conclusions. Luck is always a factor, including how strong your finals opponents are.

We played Melbourne three times in the finals between 2017 and 2020. Their finals win rate during those four years was 9 from 12 (75%), including two premierships. Their win rate for the preceding four years was only 3 from 8 (38%) with no premierships. Would've been nice to play them three times during that period, but we didn't even f**king make the finals in that time. But maybe that explains why their finals win rate was so low? Like I said, luck is always a factor. We just don't know how much. You need to look at some big data to get these insights.
 
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EelsFan05

Bench
Messages
2,789
It's only bizarre if you don't understand it, and you won't understand it if you don't try and understand why the clubs that win consistently manage to do so.

Premierships are the result of being competitive and having some luck over a period of time. They aren't something that is achieved by taking a bottom ranked club (e.g. Parramatta in 2013) and inevitably building over a predefined number of years until the guaranteed grand final win magically occurs, followed by a rebuild. If there were any guarantees of this every club would be doing it, and they would all take turns going through this cycle and winning competitions. The fact of a salary cap might lull merkins into thinking this is the sort of consistently fair and level competition that we should have. But there is so much more than just the salary cap at play. Some clubs are just stronger than others, so when they peak they are (almost) guaranteed to win a premiership within a certain timeframe. Other clubs are less strong and so when they peak their 'premiership window' is smaller and their chances of winning the required three consecutive finals games is much lower. It doesn't mean they're no chance but maybe in a two to four year period they will be a 25% or 30% chance of winning a comp. They might jag a comp in that time (e.g. Sharks in 2016-18) or they might not (e.g. Raiders in 2019-20). It takes some luck. But we can tell the strong clubs by their overall win rate over a number of years.

Here's a measure of how strong each club has been over the past decade (regular season wins) compared with number of premierships:

ClubRegular season winsPremierships
Storm1733
Chooks1463
Bunnies1441
Panthers1381
Sharks1251
Seagulls1240
Broncos1180
Raiders1180
Cowboys1151
Eels1150
Bulldogs1060
Dragons1010
Warriors970
Tigers920
Knights880
Titans880

Now leaving aside the fact that some of these teams haven't been equally strong across the entire ten year period (e.g. we have improved in the second half of the decade while the Dogs have declined), we can infer some probabilities from this table that we can't confirm nor deny, but at least form an evidence-based theory about how often certain clubs should expect a premiership in a ten year period based on how strong they are over that period.

The key data points that show the probabilistic nature of this are the ten year win numbers for Cronulla (1 premiership) and Manly (0 premierships). It is quite possible that a team winning ~52% of games over ten years has a 50% chance of also winning a premiership in that time. In this decade Cronulla's coin turned up heads while Manly's turned up tails. Below those two we have Parramatta, North Qld, Canberra and Brisbane, each with about 49% win rate. One in four of these teams won a comp in that time so perhaps their chance of winning during the decade was 25%. The Cowboys got lucky while the other three didn't. The six teams below them had premiership chances somewhere less than 25% (perhaps 0% in some cases) and none of them got lucky. Likewise at the top, the Storm won 73% of their games over the decade in question. Maybe they were a 99% chance of winning one, with reduced chances of two and three (and four) premierships during the decade. The three clubs between Cronulla and Melbourne all won a similar number of games (between 58% and 62%) over the ten years and each won at least one premiership. Maybe they were all 90% chance (or more) of winning at least one. Maybe they were all a 50% chance of winning two, but Souths and Penrith were both unlucky, while the Roosters with three premierships were very lucky over that decade?

The point is when you look at very small, cherry-picked data sets like week two finals wins you will be fooled by your human desire for narratives, when the reality is in the much bigger data. Here's the same table with week three finals appearances included (column four is preliminary finals per 100 regular season wins):

ClubReg.winsPrelimsPrelims/100 reg.winsPremierships
Storm17384.63
Chooks14664.13
Bunnies14474.91
Panthers13832.21
Sharks12521.61
Seagulls12432.40
Broncos11821.70
Raiders11832.50
Cowboys11532.61
Eels11500.00
Bulldogs10621.90
Dragons10100.00
Warriors9700.00
Tigers9200.00
Knights8811.10
Titans8800.00

Here we see a few glaring outliers, specifically Parramatta, Canterbury and Newcastle. We have underachieved for converting regular season wins to preliminary finals appearances but how much has luck been a factor? We know that the smaller the sample the more it is skewed by randomness. We have played in six games where a win would have gotten us to the preliminary final and lost all of them. But three of those were against the eventual premiers, one was against the losing grand finalists that year and another one was against the Storm (one of three total). The sixth (vs Souths in 2020) was the most winnable, but we had three of four outside backs unavailable from the previous week (Sivo, Jennings, Ferguson). It's horrific luck. But even worse luck is our most recent premiership window has coincided with the emergence of some incredibly powerful opponents. Three teams won 20+ games last year. That's never happened in the NRL era. In fact most years no team wins 20 games. Since 1998 only nine teams have won 20 games (actually eight plus Penrith's win rate in the shortened 2020 season was enough to win 21 games from 24) in a season and a full third of them occurred last year, during our premiership window. And this is why, at our peak, we might not win a grand final, and still lose a bunch of players to the salary cap. The point of premiership windows is that they close whether you won a premiership or not. They don't stay open until you win, and there's no foregone conclusions. Luck is always a factor, including how strong your finals opponents are.

We played Melbourne three times in the finals between 2017 and 2020. Their finals win rate during those four years was 9 from 12 (75%), including two premierships. Their win rate for the preceding four years was only 3 from 8 (38%) with no premierships. Would've been nice to play them three times during that period, but we didn't even f**king make the finals in that time. But maybe that explains why their finals win rate was so low? Like I said, luck is always a factor. We just don't know how much. You need to look at some big data to get these insights.
So when will we win a premiership?
 

emjaycee

Coach
Messages
12,972
It's only bizarre if you don't understand it, and you won't understand it if you don't try and understand why the clubs that win consistently manage to do so.

Premierships are the result of being competitive and having some luck over a period of time. They aren't something that is achieved by taking a bottom ranked club (e.g. Parramatta in 2013) and inevitably building over a predefined number of years until the guaranteed grand final win magically occurs, followed by a rebuild. If there were any guarantees of this every club would be doing it, and they would all take turns going through this cycle and winning competitions. The fact of a salary cap might lull merkins into thinking this is the sort of consistently fair and level competition that we should have. But there is so much more than just the salary cap at play. Some clubs are just stronger than others, so when they peak they are (almost) guaranteed to win a premiership within a certain timeframe. Other clubs are less strong and so when they peak their 'premiership window' is smaller and their chances of winning the required three consecutive finals games is much lower. It doesn't mean they're no chance but maybe in a two to four year period they will be a 25% or 30% chance of winning a comp. They might jag a comp in that time (e.g. Sharks in 2016-18) or they might not (e.g. Raiders in 2019-20). It takes some luck. But we can tell the strong clubs by their overall win rate over a number of years.

Here's a measure of how strong each club has been over the past decade (regular season wins) compared with number of premierships:

ClubRegular season winsPremierships
Storm1733
Chooks1463
Bunnies1441
Panthers1381
Sharks1251
Seagulls1240
Broncos1180
Raiders1180
Cowboys1151
Eels1150
Bulldogs1060
Dragons1010
Warriors970
Tigers920
Knights880
Titans880

Now leaving aside the fact that some of these teams haven't been equally strong across the entire ten year period (e.g. we have improved in the second half of the decade while the Dogs have declined), we can infer some probabilities from this table that we can't confirm nor deny, but at least form an evidence-based theory about how often certain clubs should expect a premiership in a ten year period based on how strong they are over that period.

The key data points that show the probabilistic nature of this are the ten year win numbers for Cronulla (1 premiership) and Manly (0 premierships). It is quite possible that a team winning ~52% of games over ten years has a 50% chance of also winning a premiership in that time. In this decade Cronulla's coin turned up heads while Manly's turned up tails. Below those two we have Parramatta, North Qld, Canberra and Brisbane, each with about 49% win rate. One in four of these teams won a comp in that time so perhaps their chance of winning during the decade was 25%. The Cowboys got lucky while the other three didn't. The six teams below them had premiership chances somewhere less than 25% (perhaps 0% in some cases) and none of them got lucky. Likewise at the top, the Storm won 73% of their games over the decade in question. Maybe they were a 99% chance of winning one, with reduced chances of two and three (and four) premierships during the decade. The three clubs between Cronulla and Melbourne all won a similar number of games (between 58% and 62%) over the ten years and each won at least one premiership. Maybe they were all 90% chance (or more) of winning at least one. Maybe they were all a 50% chance of winning two, but Souths and Penrith were both unlucky, while the Roosters with three premierships were very lucky over that decade?

The point is when you look at very small, cherry-picked data sets like week two finals wins you will be fooled by your human desire for narratives, when the reality is in the much bigger data. Here's the same table with week three finals appearances included (column four is preliminary finals per 100 regular season wins):

ClubReg.winsPrelimsPrelims/100 reg.winsPremierships
Storm17384.63
Chooks14664.13
Bunnies14474.91
Panthers13832.21
Sharks12521.61
Seagulls12432.40
Broncos11821.70
Raiders11832.50
Cowboys11532.61
Eels11500.00
Bulldogs10621.90
Dragons10100.00
Warriors9700.00
Tigers9200.00
Knights8811.10
Titans8800.00

Here we see a few glaring outliers, specifically Parramatta, Canterbury and Newcastle. We have underachieved for converting regular season wins to preliminary finals appearances but how much has luck been a factor? We know that the smaller the sample the more it is skewed by randomness. We have played in six games where a win would have gotten us to the preliminary final and lost all of them. But three of those were against the eventual premiers, one was against the losing grand finalists that year and another one was against the Storm (one of three total). The sixth (vs Souths in 2020) was the most winnable, but we had three of four outside backs unavailable from the previous week (Sivo, Jennings, Ferguson). It's horrific luck. But even worse luck is our most recent premiership window has coincided with the emergence of some incredibly powerful opponents. Three teams won 20+ games last year. That's never happened in the NRL era. In fact most years no team wins 20 games. Since 1998 only nine teams have won 20 games (actually eight plus Penrith's win rate in the shortened 2020 season was enough to win 21 games from 24) in a season and a full third of them occurred last year, during our premiership window. And this is why, at our peak, we might not win a grand final, and still lose a bunch of players to the salary cap. The point of premiership windows is that they close whether you won a premiership or not. They don't stay open until you win, and there's no foregone conclusions. Luck is always a factor, including how strong your finals opponents are.

We played Melbourne three times in the finals between 2017 and 2020. Their finals win rate during those four years was 9 from 12 (75%), including two premierships. Their win rate for the preceding four years was only 3 from 8 (38%) with no premierships. Would've been nice to play them three times during that period, but we didn't even f**king make the finals in that time. But maybe that explains why their finals win rate was so low? Like I said, luck is always a factor. We just don't know how much. You need to look at some big data to get these insights.
No f**ken Excuses!!!
 

Gronk

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
73,938
No f**ken Excuses!!!
It’s a simple formula. Just get the people with business nous and true grit determination and success flows. FFS I don’t get why people don’t make it happen. They must be content with mediocrity. Did I mention training ? Lots of that and repetition. I repeat, repetitions. No excuses!
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,478

Even I didn't read all that. You just know it is a whole lot of excuses with data that is backing up his excuses the way he wants it all to be backed up.

Bottom line. It just takes one man to fix it all. He can be the guy right at the top like a Politis/Chairman type or he can be the General Manager/CEO or he can be the guy who restructures and oversees your junior development, recruitment/development guy or he can be the coach. If it is a Politis guy then you are blessed because he will always get you all the others that are the best at what they do.

If it is the General Manager/CEO it's similar to Politis and they will get the best to fill all the vital positions below. If it is the junior development, recruitment/development guy then it is a little harder in the sense that he may be doing all the right things and bringing in the best from your catchment area and outside but the others within the club are boofheads and not getting the job done and eventually this guy will get frustrated and leave when better run clubs come a knocking. If it is the Coach similar to the Football Manager guy and he will be lost real quick to a better run club.

Of course all these guys need for the $5m non player salary cap to be spent in its entirety. If it is spent in full, no club, not even the Roosters have a monetary advantage over any other in the football department, so it then comes down to the higher ups in your organisation to bring the right other guys into your organisation. Parra is one of the top 3 or 4 clubs in the league as far as wealth of resources and profile, so if the management is football savvy then getting the right underlings to the joint should be almost procedural like. Most great football managers and coaches would love to be part of a club like ours as long as we gave them all the resources that they will demand.

Now as far as our current situation is concerned I would suggest we have a stable and decent but not great General Manager/CEO(Board) that know how to run the business but are a little lost when it comes to the football side of things. Whoever is in charge of junior development, recruitment/development(I think we have a team doing it at Parra) they are doing an adequate job, but not great and if they don't recover from all the quality player losses and potential losses that are looming they will be shown to be doing a sh*t job of maintaining the modicum of success that they have had over the last 3 seasons. As for the coach that the Board have hired and rehired and rehired and rehired unless he can get the bickies this season it will be seen as a failure again of not being able to smell the coffee and persisting with a guy that has thus far shown he is a one trick pony and can only get us so far.

Excuses are for losers. We should never be in the excuses group of clubs. 36+ years without a title is shameful for a club of our stature. Quality gets you quality results. It's not that Parra aren't capable due to finances or resources. It is due to the people we keep settling on to manage these extremely and vitally important roles are generally of second tear quality. If we ever have higher aspirations we should leave no stone unturned to bring the best to our club. Period! This is where the no excuses mantra starts. Period!

I heard Corey Parker say something smart for the first time the other day. Yes I know, funny. But he rightfully said that 'A' grade personality types tend to hire 'A' grade personality types around them, Whereas 'B' grade personality types tend to hire 'B' and 'C' grade personality types around them. I think that that basically sums up our situation here at Parra.

Hahaha...I just noticed how long my sh*t post is too...Hahahaha..
 

Pazza

First Grade
Messages
8,567
I don’t know if I’m looking at everything through a blue and gold lens but I don’t see any teams with our level of success being gutted. It’s bizarre.

It's a shame

You look at:

RCG
Mahoney
Paulo
Papalii
Niukore
Matterson

In my 22 years supporting the club this starting pack is right up there with the 2001 and 2005 packs if not better.

We stand to lose the majority of them at this point. I hope we get to see a good amount of footy of these guys playing together cause they're a special bunch.
 

Happy MEel

First Grade
Messages
9,411
What is interesting is that we were told ad nauseum on here that it was imperative for BA to be locked in late last year to provide certainty for the playing group in recruitment negotiations. However, since BA was extended in October we’ve lost pretty much every top 17 player off contract including niukore, Paps, Mahoney, Stone, and Kaufusi, with the exception of Drown who took up his player option off a pretty ordinary 2021. Furthermore, Matto is looking doubtful beyond this season.

You look at the coaches that these players would be playing under at the time of their signing (with the exception of Stone) and it highlights that the coach isnt the magic silver bullet in contract negotiations we were led to believe. In fact I think it is a very minor consideration. I hope the club learns from this going forward.
 
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