Sack Griffin

[True_Believer]

I’m not sure it matters.
Honest question, will we beat the dogs next year? Doubt it. Even Tigers will be better with the addition of Papali, Korisou, Stains, a hungry Benji coaching. I doubt we would beat them, 50/50 game really.
So if we just drew teams out of a hat now and said for example Dogs, Tigers, Sharks, Raiders, Manly as our first 5 rounds, how many games do you think we win? I reckon 1 or 2, and that’s a pretty easy draw playing teams that finished 2, 8, 11, 12, 16
Hook is done, we ain’t starting strong next year, no May premiers anymore for us, those days are finished with the current mess.

So, would promoting youth to key positions change that?

 

[Billeus]

What you are missing is that Hook started that process years before.

He may not have started the process but was involved in the young players development with the right blend of senior players, he has insight into their successful system and is experienced at developing young talent.

It’s possible the truth is, he only lost his job because Nathan Cleary's new contract was being negotiated and there was the strong possibility that he was going to go play for his dad at the tigers, he even announced his ambition to one day play for his dad. Phil Gould recognised Nathan as being a once in a generational player and leader and did everything necessary to keep him by sacking Hook immediately and announcing Ivan's instatement at the end of the season, also realising that an exodus of young talent including Cleary's mates was a strong possibility if Nathan left.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Put yourself in Hook's shoes right now. Surely, he's 'noticed the negative press, the player comments etc.
Now the interesting thing is, if you know your coaching career is on the line, do you:

1: Do you do the same, same and hope by some miracle the old guard comes through and you string some wins together against the top echelon of current teams? or;
2: Do you bite the bullet and trust in the process of best player for the position, and if there's any loss of form or intensity have the balls to drop them to Koe Cup and promote someone who may just be better at that time, and at the same time letting go your own personal bias?

Obviously, Macca and Mbye are the 2 that would be most scrutinized as far as form is concerned, and of course the 2 youngsters in Bud and Fox as far as getting a start or even a fair go.

If Hook has learnt anything from his past "mistakes" then he would know the correct option to take. However, Hook has proven himself to be stubborn in his way, which ultimately will lead to his demise.

 

[Kiwi Dragon supporter]

What you are missing is that Hook started that process years before.

I agree, but he certainly has not followed suit with the Dragons, only been involved in recruiting over the hill players.

 

[Inisai Toga]

He may not have started the process but was involved in the young players development with the right blend of senior players, he has insight into their successful system and is experienced at developing young talent.

It’s possible the truth is, he only lost his job because Nathan Cleary's new contract was being negotiated and there was the strong possibility that he was going to go play for his dad at the tigers, he even announced his ambition to one day play for his dad. Phil Gould recognised Nathan as being a once in a generational player and leader and did everything necessary to keep him by sacking Hook immediately and announcing Ivan's instatement at the end of the season, also realising that an exodus of young talent including Cleary's mates was a strong possibility if Nathan left.

Agree with this, but just a minor point…..didn’t Gould sack I Cleary (and Griffin) then chase and then later got the verbal from Bennett. I thought the board however, got Ivan back post Griffin ….? Happy to stand corrected

 

[Billeus]

Agree with this, but just a minor point…..didn’t Gould sack I Cleary (and Griffin) then chase and then later got the verbal from Bennett. I thought the board however, got Ivan back post Griffin ….? Happy to stand corrected

This link to an article by Adam Hayward in the Roar sheds more light on it.

If Ivan Cleary fails, Phil Gould must be sacked – The Roar

www.google.com

 

[Crush]

So, would promoting youth to key positions change that?

Not for the first 5 rounds it wouldn't, the youth will take a bit of time before they are competitive. Which is why it pissed me off when Mbye was selected starting fullback for 8 rounds last year. People said he was safe under the highball, great, we came 10th and Sloan got barely any 1st grade experience. We still have no idea if he's overhyped and off the pace or just needs time to get used to the intensity of 1sts. If he had played those 8 games that Mbye played fullback we'd have a better idea. Sure we may have finished 13th instead of 10th but did that really matter?
Promoting juniors alone wont get us near the top 8, we really need to buy some quality forwards now, its scary how poor our pack looks for 23.
But sack the coach now and bring in someone on the up and we can be competitive again in 24' 25'
Bring in someone like Jason Ryles, I mean he has spent 5 years under Bellamy and is now under Robinson. Do you reckon he might know a little more than, I dont know... DEAN YOUNG!!!
Dean started about the same time that Jason Ryles did, but instead of Bellamy, he learnt from Paul McGregor. Now hes under Todd Payten so he might be actually learning something but surely isn't ready to tackle the shit fight that is the the St George Illawarra Dragons?

 

[Slippery Morris]

I heard that the board went behind Gould's back as Gould did not want him to return. Ivan returned and Gould got the boot or left which sort of makes perfect sense. If Gould wanted Ivan back then he would have stayed also if Gould was responsible for bringing Ivan back why did the Penrith board give him the boot? Was it like breaking up with a girlfriend "Sorry Gus, it's not you it's us, your too good for us". Yeah right.

The guy has lost has sparkle as we can all see. At the Dogs he is going around poaching all juniors or players from Penrith / Parra. Trying to get youngsters to break contracts. Whilst ignoring the fact the Dogs reserve team made the KOE Final so basically telling them they are not good enough. How is that building a good junior base. The dogs team in 2-3 years will be made up of all players from other clubs. Bought not Bred.

 

[I'm Hornby]

Which is why it pissed me off when Mbye was selected starting fullback for 8 rounds last year. People said he was safe under the highball, great, we came 10th and Sloan got barely any 1st grade experience. We still have no idea if he's overhyped and off the pace or just needs time to get used to the intensity of 1sts. If he had played those 8 games that Mbye played fullback we'd have a better idea.

Sloan had chances to impress at the back end of season 2020, the season 2020/21 pre season, was then backed by the same coach you hate to start the season at fullback.

He looked completely out of his depth and cost us some key games last season.

What part of his inadequate performances did you think warranted him getting more game time?

He clearly had glaring deficiencies which throwing him in the deep end in top grade wouldn't have fixed sorry mate.

Hook certainly isn't perfect but he has given Sloan his fair share of chances and was right to use Mbye as a stop gap while Ramsey was injured.

Speaking of Ramsey you then neglect to mention what a revelation he was at fullback after the same coach backed him to play there when he returned from injury.

 

[possm]

I’m not sure it matters.
Honest question, will we beat the dogs next year? Doubt it. Even Tigers will be better with the addition of Papali, Korisou, Stains, a hungry Benji coaching. I doubt we would beat them, 50/50 game really.
So if we just drew teams out of a hat now and said for example Dogs, Tigers, Sharks, Raiders, Manly as our first 5 rounds, how many games do you think we win? I reckon 1 or 2, and that’s a pretty easy draw playing teams that finished 2, 8, 11, 12, 16
Hook is done, we ain’t starting strong next year, no May premiers anymore for us, those days are finished with the current mess.

Both the Dogs and Tigers have improved their roster for 2023. Who have we recruited that will make a difference?

 

[possm]

Put yourself in Hook's shoes right now. Surely, he's 'noticed the negative press, the player comments etc.
Now the interesting thing is, if you know your coaching career is on the line, do you:

1: Do you do the same, same and hope by some miracle the old guard comes through and you string some wins together against the top echelon of current teams? or;
2: Do you bite the bullet and trust in the process of best player for the position, and if there's any loss of form or intensity have the balls to drop them to Koe Cup and promote someone who may just be better at that time, and at the same time letting go your own personal bias?

Obviously, Macca and Mbye are the 2 that would be most scrutinized as far as form is concerned, and of course the 2 youngsters in Bud and Fox as far as getting a start or even a fair go.

If Hook has learnt anything from his past "mistakes" then he would know the correct option to take. However, Hook has proven himself to be stubborn in his way, which ultimately will lead to his demise.

Griffin has a contract, probably his last head coach contract. So why would he be worried? Even if sacked his contract is paid out in full.

The things Craig Young will do to ensure the top coaching job for his son Dean.

 

[Crush]

Both the Dogs and Tigers have improved their roster for 2023. Who have we recruited that will make a difference?

So far, nobody, set your expectations low poss.

 

[Crush]

Sloan had chances to impress at the back end of season 2020, the season 2020/21 pre season, was then backed by the same coach you hate to start the season at fullback.

He looked completely out of his depth and cost us some key games last season.

What part of his inadequate performances did you think warranted him getting more game time?

He clearly had glaring deficiencies which throwing him in the deep end in top grade wouldn't have fixed sorry mate.

Hook certainly isn't perfect but he has given Sloan his fair share of chances and was right to use Mbye as a stop gap while Ramsey was injured.

Speaking of Ramsey you then neglect to mention what a revelation he was at fullback after the same coach backed him to play there when he returned from injury.

Without jumping onto the stats to see when he played and when he was dropped, my feeling around Sloan was he looked really good at back end of 2020. I was excited about watching him develop in 21. Then he had 3 games was it to start the season and had a couple of shockers.
Was dropped for ages, came back for one game in tricky conditions and again was dropped after a poor showing.
If Ramsey was fit I completely understand that he was the better option and deserved his spot.
But Mbye for 8 weeks at fullback achieved nothing in my mind. I’d have rather Sloan get a real crack at it and see if he could rediscover that confidence he had in 2020.
Again, it’s not that Sloan wasn’t playing as much as the reason was the coach went for Mbye. Mbye was also selected at 9 for 5 weeks and centre for a few weeks.
Surely it would have been better trying something that gives us a shot down the track?
Mbye starting in the spine is desperate.

 

[Maximus]

Without jumping onto the stats to see when he played and when he was dropped, my feeling around Sloan was he looked really good at back end of 2020. I was excited about watching him develop in 21. Then he had 3 games was it to start the season and had a couple of shockers.
Was dropped for ages, came back for one game in tricky conditions and again was dropped after a poor showing.
If Ramsey was fit I completely understand that he was the better option and deserved his spot.
But Mbye for 8 weeks at fullback achieved nothing in my mind. I’d have rather Sloan get a real crack at it and see if he could rediscover that confidence he had in 2020.
Again, it’s not that Sloan wasn’t playing as much as the reason was the coach went for Mbye. Mbye was also selected at 9 for 5 weeks and centre for a few weeks.
Surely it would have been better trying something that gives us a shot down the track?
Mbye starting in the spine is desperate.

Just curious, but who should we have played at centre in the 3 weeks he played? Reuben appears to be the only backline member of the squad who wasn't injured or in the 17.

And who should have played at 9 for those 5 weeks?

Remember, your suggestion needs to be part of the squad.

 

[Crush]

Just curious, but who should we have played at centre in the 3 weeks he played? Reuben appears to be the only backline member of the squad who wasn't injured or in the 17.

And who should have played at 9 for those 5 weeks?

Remember, your suggestion needs to be part of the squad.

Well 3 or 4 of those 5 games Mbye played starting hooker, Bud Sullivan was available so I would have played Hunt at 9 with Sullivan at 7 and Mbye on the bench. Or if need be to keep captain happy, play Sullivan at hooker with Mbye off the bench.
Now the 3 games Mbye played centre, I would have played Sloan at fullback and Ramsey at centre. Mbye off the bench.
While not ideal moving an in form Ramsay from the fullback position, he still stays on the field and we have an eye to the future by playing Sloan and giving him some valuable experience.
Mbye starting at 9 or 3 when we could be playing younger players with more potential (even if at that given time they aren’t as solid as Mbye) makes no sense unless you are really fighting for a premiership and must win every game.

 

[True_Believer]

We still have no idea if he's overhyped and off the pace or just needs time to get used to the intensity of 1sts.

But is that something the coach needs to consider? That he needs to play someone so the fans can see if he's overhyped or not? Shouldn't the coaching staff be able to make that call on training and what they've seen - stuff that fans aren't privy to?

I'm sorry but I just don't get this "promote youth to see if they are good enough" approach. In reality, Bud probably would have had first opportunity to play in the halves at the beginning of the year but unfortunately he was injured for something like 4 games. So Amone got a chance and they stuck with him for the full season which was fantastic. And then Bud had a couple of games but I believe got injured a couple of other times during the season. It makes zero sense to me to be giving him a heap of game time when you are trying to bring Amone up to speed as well as balancing Buds down time.

What happens if he doesn't come along? Who do we play in the halves if we've dumped Hunt? If Bud isn't all he's cracked up to be, then we have to trial another junior who may be well off the pace and expecting Amone to carry the team - and then we're in the same boat as we've been for the last 10 years. Only one half (incidentally without a great kicking game) that will be targeted mercilessly until we find someone else who will then need at least a couple of years to step up. It feels like taking a risk when we don't need to.

As for Sloan, I think I saw enough to know that he's got a long way to go before he's ready for first grade. Ramsay, at the moment, is streets ahead of him.

 

[Crush]

But is that something the coach needs to consider? That he needs to play someone so the fans can see if he's overhyped or not? Shouldn't the coaching staff be able to make that call on training and what they've seen - stuff that fans aren't privy to?

I'm sorry but I just don't get this "promote youth to see if they are good enough" approach. In reality, Bud probably would have had first opportunity to play in the halves at the beginning of the year but unfortunately he was injured for something like 4 games. So Amone got a chance and they stuck with him for the full season which was fantastic. And then Bud had a couple of games but I believe got injured a couple of other times during the season. It makes zero sense to me to be giving him a heap of game time when you are trying to bring Amone up to speed as well as balancing Buds down time.

What happens if he doesn't come along? Who do we play in the halves if we've dumped Hunt? If Bud isn't all he's cracked up to be, then we have to trial another junior who may be well off the pace and expecting Amone to carry the team - and then we're in the same boat as we've been for the last 10 years. Only one half (incidentally without a great kicking game) that will be targeted mercilessly until we find someone else who will then need at least a couple of years to step up. It feels like taking a risk when we don't need to.

As for Sloan, I think I saw enough to know that he's got a long way to go before he's ready for first grade. Ramsay, at the moment, is streets ahead of him.

I don’t mean the fans when I say we have no idea about Sloan, I mean the club. And I disagree we saw enough, I’d have liked to have seen him for a longer period than 3 weeks at fullback given that Mbye was the one who replaced him.
The reason you play the youth over the hazzbeens in a bottom 8 side is because with the likes of Norman, Mbye, Woods etc, we kinda know what we are going to get. That’s because we have seen them play for many years and we know where their ceiling is.
With players like Sloan, Bud, Amone, Ramsay, Fegai we don’t know what heights they will reach in first grade. We know that they have fantastic potential given their junior football accolades so why not give them extended periods of first grade.
Sure you don’t want a team full of rookies because you will get lapped every week but given where we are, there was no need to play Norman at 6 for a whole season in a bottom 8 team or Mbye, Bird etc at fullback when Ramsay is injured.

 

[True_Believer]

I don’t mean the fans when I say we have no idea about Sloan, I mean the club. And I disagree we saw enough, I’d have liked to have seen him for a longer period than 3 weeks at fullback given that Mbye was the one who replaced him.
The reason you play the youth over the hazzbeens in a bottom 8 side is because with the likes of Norman, Mbye, Woods etc, we kinda know what we are going to get. That’s because we have seen them play for many years and we know where their ceiling is.
With players like Sloan, Bud, Amone, Ramsay, Fegai we don’t know what heights they will reach in first grade. We know that they have fantastic potential given their junior football accolades so why not give them extended periods of first grade.
Sure you don’t want a team full of rookies because you will get lapped every week but given where we are, there was no need to play Norman at 6 for a whole season in a bottom 8 team or Mbye, Bird etc at fullback when Ramsay is injured.

I think for the first year as a new coach it's working out what you have and what you don't. So you then work out where you are going to try and improve and what players are worth keeping. For mine, it's the first step in rebuilding. Not coming in and making wholesale changes before you even know what you've got - both on and off the field.

The second year is cleaning out and building on that and working through a plan to allow you to continue to rebuild over the following years. I believe Hook has been trying to do that with bringing juniors through as well as buying many of those older players on short contracts.

Out of your list of 5, 3 of them got fantastic opportunities and proved themselves on the field. I've said before that I don't think Hook is the coach to take us to a final, but he gets much maligned on here for not giving the juniors a go - but that's simply not true. He has recruited well in a couple of positions and essentially handed at least 3 junior players full time positions in first grade. Overall across the field, we have a pretty young team.

As for Sloan, the games I saw of him in the reserves showed me that his attitude is not there. Now you and others might argue that he needed special treatment by the coach to ensure he "felt wanted", but there has to be some onus on the player as well. You can't just get dropped to reserves and spend those games sulking because you were told to go and work on your game. Additionally, it's about winning games and trying to get out of that bottom 8. It's often been said that bringing a team into the 8, even if they are considered cannon fodder, brings more motivation for the team going forward. If Mbye is going to do the job better (which in my opinion he did), then isn't that better for the team as a whole rather than trialling a junior for weeks when he has already shown deficiencies in his game?

 

[BLM01]

I heard that the board went behind Gould's back as Gould did not want him to return. Ivan returned and Gould got the boot or left which sort of makes perfect sense. If Gould wanted Ivan back then he would have stayed also if Gould was responsible for bringing Ivan back why did the Penrith board give him the boot? Was it like breaking up with a girlfriend "Sorry Gus, it's not you it's us, your too good for us". Yeah right.

The guy has lost has sparkle as we can all see. At the Dogs he is going around poaching all juniors or players from Penrith / Parra. Trying to get youngsters to break contracts. Whilst ignoring the fact the Dogs reserve team made the KOE Final so basically telling them they are not good enough. How is that building a good junior base. The dogs team in 2-3 years will be made up of all players from other clubs. Bought not Bred.

Correct. It was rumoured that they did not mend a fractured relationship from 3 years prior. Cleary agreed to come on the proviso Gus butted out of coaching and running the football side of things... (see articles below) so Gus eventually honourably resigned within 6 months after Clearly started work cause he had nothing to do

 

[BLM01]

This link to an article by Adam Hayward in the Roar sheds more light on it.

If Ivan Cleary fails, Phil Gould must be sacked – The Roar

www.google.com

It depends which media outlet you believe.
Not sure the Roar is that credible but who knows

Cleary returns to Penrith on five-year deal

Confirms feeling of 'unfinished business' upon return

wwos.nine.com.au

CONFIRMED: Ivan Cleary Announced As New Penrith Panthers Coach

JUST IN

www.triplem.com.au