Sack Griffin

[Como Connection]

Burns was one of our best last week...how is Blacker going ? i know we got the better end of the deal there....
we have had a record number of suspensions this year...we should arguably be at the bottom of the ladder....Depth was already down thanks to the mess Griffin inherited.

Unbelievable how clueless some posters are....

Another sensible post, well said.
CC

 

[denis preston]

Up to there describes Hunt perfectly. Are you honestly telling me that Hunt is in the mould of past Dragons halves as Smith, Morris, Strudwick, Haddock, Linnane..and there are others. All these blokes had pace, could defend and had some creativity.

Well he has played for Australia unlike Haddock, Linnane & Strudwick ( and if he did it was a Bennett type QLD pick ) better than Morris as well IMO strictly as a team halfback. Bloody hell Perry Haddock & Steve Linnane !!!

 

[Inisai Toga]

Well he has played for Australia unlike Haddock, Linnane & Strudwick ( and if he did it was a Bennett type QLD pick ) better than Morris as well IMO strictly as a team halfback. Bloody hell Perry Haddock & Steve Linnane !!!

Strudwick did Denis…post Saints

 

[denis preston]

Your last paragraphs opening sentence, is what seperates us from being a serious contender. We, atm, do not have that player, the consistand xfactor player, like TTurbo, Ponga, or a Haas or Fifita (Titans not the other one). No one of this standard will come here, as the club is in its current predicament. Our last 9 or so years, has basically secured us the title of 'whipping bitches', to be used as fodder for player agents. As @Willow said, the fish rots from the head, and our 'fish' has been rotting for a long time now and the stench is so unsavoury it can be smelt by every prospctive player.

Griffin has a hurculean task to gather what remains of this season, and not let it determine our 2022 campaign, and whilst it's not showing on the field at present, and there are a myriad of reasons for that, we must approach the rest of this year with a view to next. The deadwood, the 'problematics', the also-rans, will and have been removed, however, like the rotting fish, their stench still lingers within the group.
As for our xfactor, well it's plainly obvious, thst until we completly refurbish and renovate from top to bottom, we have to rely on home grown talent, to which we do have a few. Their key is the proper development of thrse players into xfactors. Now, is Hook the right person for that, or is there another who can successfully show a track record of this to take his place?

Yes, although Hunt has had a great year, is it a million dollar great value year ? Having 2.6.million wrapped up with Hunt, Norman & Vaughan really shows were our elite money for a superstar went. We could buy 2 and also get a SOO standard player as well for that money ! It was never going to happen though with the idiots we had to run the show. Hoping Hook & Webby can right the ship !

 

[denis preston]

Strudwick did Denis…post Saints

Yes with due respect to the Renown junior it was a numbers game to get the quota of Queenslanders up, just the same as Wayne Bennetts inclusion. Solid player but nowhere near Hunt's class.

 

[Inisai Toga]

Yes with due respect to the Renown junior it was a numbers game to get the quota of Queenslanders up, just the same as Wayne Bennetts inclusion. Solid player but nowhere near Hunt's class.

Agree!

 

[BIG RIG]

I was always curious to do this but let’s compare McGregor and Hook in recruitment

McGregor
- George Rose
- Dane Nielsen
- Eto Nabuli
- Heath L’ Estrange
- Kurt Mann
- Siliva Havili
- Mose Masoe
- Dunamis Lui
- Josh McCrone
- Taane Milne
- Tim Lafai
- Josh Kerr
- Nene MacDonald
- Cameron McInnes
- Paul Vaughan
- James Graham
- Ben Hunt
- Jeremy Latimore
- Korbin Sims
- Tariq Sims
- Mikaele Ravalawa
- Lachlan Maranta
- Corey Norman
- Jonus Pearson
- Issac Luke
- Trent Merrin
- Brayden Williame
- Kaide Ellis
- Jordan Periera
- Tyrell Fuimaono

Hook
- Daniel Alvaro
- Poasa Fa’amusili
- Jack Bird
- Andrew McCullough
- Gerard Beale
- Billy Burns
- Josh McGuire
- Francis Molo
- Jaydn Su’a
- George Burgess
- Moses Mbye *

I would say recruitment was sub par under McGregor but may be on the improve under Hook

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

I was always curious to do this but let’s compare McGregor and Hook in recruitment

McGregor
- George Rose
- Dane Nielsen
- Eto Nabuli
- Heath L’ Estrange
- Kurt Mann
- Siliva Havili
- Mose Masoe
- Dunamis Lui
- Josh McCrone
- Taane Milne
- Tim Lafai
- Josh Kerr
- Nene MacDonald
- Cameron McInnes
- Paul Vaughan
- James Graham
- Ben Hunt
- Jeremy Latimore
- Korbin Sims
- Tariq Sims
- Mikaele Ravalawa
- Lachlan Maranta
- Corey Norman
- Jonus Pearson
- Issac Luke
- Trent Merrin
- Brayden Williame
- Kaide Ellis
- Jordan Periera
- Tyrell Fuimaono

Hook
- Daniel Alvaro
- Poasa Fa’amusili
- Jack Bird
- Andrew McCullough
- Gerard Beale
- Billy Burns
- Josh McGuire
- Francis Molo
- Jaydn Su’a
- George Burgess
- Moses Mbye *

I would say recruitment was sub par under McGregor but may be on the improve under Hook

Ah cheers mate. good lists to compare.

Dane Neilson! I remember when we signed him thinking "Brilliant".... then....... I loved big Georgie Rose though, how could anyone not......??

 

[Dragonslayer]

I was always curious to do this but let’s compare McGregor and Hook in recruitment

McGregor
- George Rose
- Dane Nielsen
- Eto Nabuli
- Heath L’ Estrange
- Kurt Mann
- Siliva Havili
- Mose Masoe
- Dunamis Lui
- Josh McCrone
- Taane Milne
- Tim Lafai
- Josh Kerr
- Nene MacDonald
- Cameron McInnes
- Paul Vaughan
- James Graham
- Ben Hunt
- Jeremy Latimore
- Korbin Sims
- Tariq Sims
- Mikaele Ravalawa
- Lachlan Maranta
- Corey Norman
- Jonus Pearson
- Issac Luke
- Trent Merrin
- Brayden Williame
- Kaide Ellis
- Jordan Periera
- Tyrell Fuimaono

Hook
- Daniel Alvaro
- Poasa Fa’amusili
- Jack Bird
- Andrew McCullough
- Gerard Beale
- Billy Burns
- Josh McGuire
- Francis Molo
- Jaydn Su’a
- George Burgess
- Moses Mbye *

I would say recruitment was sub par under McGregor but may be on the improve under Hook

Makes interesting reading doesn't it!
May I add, that McGregor majorly recruited at full freight and extended terms.
Further, on our juniors, besides Dufty and maybe Lawrie, who else did Mc85 give an extended period of time in 1st grade? I just cant think of anyone else. Lomax was never given an extended period in his preferred position, so to me that doesn't count.

Under Griffins 10 month tenure, other than Poasa (at full freight), Beale (on base salary), Burns (a direct swap for Blacker), Macca, Maguire, Alvaro, Bird and Mbye*, are all subsidised by their former clubs. Sua and Molo are good signing, both have played at SOO level. Burgess is signed on a minumum wage.

I gear names being thrown around such as:
Finucane, well we had a real red hot crack at him, unfortunately he went with his 'mate' at the Sharks, on overs imo.
Welsh, was veey interested but we didnt have a coach at that time, so he remained at the Storm.

One final observation, why would Macca, Molo, Sua and even Burgess, and probably others, sign on past the current contract of the coach?

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Makes interesting reading doesn't it!
May I add, that McGregor majorly recruited at full freight and extended terms.
Further, on our juniors, besides Dufty and maybe Lawrie, who else did Mc85 give an extended period of time in 1st grade? I just cant think of anyone else. Lomax was never given an extended period in his preferred position, so to me that doesn't count.

Under Griffins 10 month tenure, other than Poasa (at full freight), Beale (on base salary), Burns (a direct swap for Blacker), Macca, Maguire, Alvaro, Bird and Mbye*, are all subsidised by their former clubs. Sua and Molo are good signing, both have played at SOO level. Burgess is signed on a minumum wage.

I gear names being thrown around such as:
Finucane, well we had a real red hot crack at him, unfortunately he went with his 'mate' at the Sharks, on overs imo.
Welsh, was veey interested but we didnt have a coach at that time, so he remained at the Storm.

One final observation, why would Macca, Molo, Sua and even Burgess, and probably others, sign on past the current contract of the coach?

Re the Juniors under Mary, got myself a coffee and had a look through. This is a list of the ones who debuted under Paul McGregor - and some comments/opinions. Whether anyone likes/rates/agrees with their first grade exposure & performance - a matter of opinion of course.

- Rory O'Brien - only 3 games for us, moved to Parra and played only 11 before being released.

- Euan Aitken - 6 years consistent first grader.

- Yaw Kiti Glymin - only played one first grade game. I don't remember this guy at all!

- Drew Hutchison - Savage Injuries - only played a handful of first grade games. What might have been.

- Jacob Host - played over 50 games for us in 5 seasons. Fringe first grader for the most part

- Luciano Leilua - made debut at 20 years old, never consistently in first grade until his last season with us in 2019.

- Jai Field - played only a handful of first grade games. Went onto Parra and since moved to the ESL.

- Hame Sele - 18 games over 2 seasons. Minimal games since with Penrith and Souths.

- Blake Lawrie - debut in 2017, consistent first grader in last 2 seasons.

- Matt Dufty - consistent first grader in 2018, and for the most part since. Arguable if performance warranted a permanent first grade jumper in later years. Let go this season.

- Zac Lomax - debuted at 18. Became a consistent first grader in 2019. Wanted to play fullback, given a shot but IMO a far better centre - was brought into SOO as an "emerging player" at Centre.

- Reece Robson - minimal games but playing behind Cameron McInnes.

- Jackson Ford - fringe first grader for most part.

- Tristan Sailor - got some first grade exposure in late 2019, and 2020. Since let go.

- Adam Clune - Given a crack in 2020 and got 15 games last year.

So that's 15 Dragons Juniors. Doesn't include juniors from other areas like Ramsay, Saab etc who debuted under McGregor. So he did give plenty of juniors a shot in the top flight.

Of these - I'm unsure which of these deserved a far greater tenure in firsts, or have since gone onto greater heights since leaving. None of them stand out at all.

 

[matPORTS]

While we are creating lists - can we also get the names of how many assistants and backroom staff were also hired & subsequently moved on under Mary? Be good for comparison purposes with what Hook does as time goes on.

Biggest concern of Marys' recruitment & junior lists - I can honestly say that neither list has anyone who has gone onto set the world on fire despite being recruited on full ticket or having big wraps on them through the lower grades. At best, we have a handful of consistent first graders (some through that consistency managed to obtain rep selection) but that's about as far as it stretches... when I say this I'm talking Addo-Carr, Papenhuyzen, Hynes, Finucane style recruitment where they are not only immediate mainstays in the team, but also consistently lighting up the stats sheets every single year.

I have posted about this several times over the past couple of years, and it still drives me nuts to this very moment... we still have not successfully replaced the 200+ games of experience (including a premiership) that Nightingale left behind when he retired, despite recruitment of a slew of outside backs and having Ramsay, The Feagais, Schiller, Sloan coming through the juniors, and don't get me started on Garrick & Saab (should be added to the juniors list ?).

All the while the 'contenders' have big powerful wingers who take massive pressure off their forward pack as well as having speed to burn.

 

[scottyt92]

Lol, you expect to change a team in 1 season and get the buys we need in 1 year. I dont like nor hate him as a coach, his made better picks for the team than mcgregor.
Chill out and wait till next year then see how close we are to being top contenders again.
I agree we need to use our young players but it all takes time

 

[Carlton]

Lol, you expect to change a team in 1 season and get the buys we need in 1 year. I dont like nor hate him as a coach, his made better picks for the team than mcgregor.
Chill out and wait till next year then see how close we are to being top contenders again.
I agree we need to use our young players but it all takes time

I dont understand,

The cry is blood the juniors, then this turns to why are we playing them this week when they werent up to it. The juniors will take time and some will make it some wont, I just hope we back the right ones and move the others on.
We keep signing reserve graders, but Molo, Sua and Burgess signings dont count. A couple of solid experienced players are signed to cover inexperience on limited dollars and limited terms and all the complaints about not having depth are forgotten.
Before Hynes signed with the sharks we had posters unhappy about how much we would have had to pay and the fact he would impede the juniors, we dont get him and the worlds ended.
The reality is we have to have 30 players and we have to have spent our salary cap, we have players under contract, what do you expect Hook to do sack everyone in breach of contract and then try to sign 30 SOO players.
Hooks blamed by some posters for losing Frizzel who signed a year before he took over, McInness signed with the Sharks before Hook had any influence except for the fact he wasnt Mary, and Hook wanted to keep Host but the damage had already been done.
Welsh not signing was before Hook had been appointed and we have been in discussions with a number of players but it has been our club that has walked away because the perceived value was less than the amount that would have had to be paid.

Is Hook the greatest coach, I dont know but I know he is nowhere near the worst and he is probably what we need, there are a number of players being moved on, we are making targeted signings and the "mates" who just want to turn up and get pay check have been tapped on the shoulder. This isn't a two minute fix and the pain will not suddenly disappear, it will take time and some astute maneuvering before the roster is sorted.

 

[Dragon David]

I dont understand,

The cry is blood the juniors, then this turns to why are we playing them this week when they werent up to it. The juniors will take time and some will make it some wont, I just hope we back the right ones and move the others on.
We keep signing reserve graders, but Molo, Sua and Burgess signings dont count. A couple of solid experienced players are signed to cover inexperience on limited dollars and limited terms and all the complaints about not having depth are forgotten.
Before Hynes signed with the sharks we had posters unhappy about how much we would have had to pay and the fact he would impede the juniors, we dont get him and the worlds ended.
The reality is we have to have 30 players and we have to have spent our salary cap, we have players under contract, what do you expect Hook to do sack everyone in breach of contract and then try to sign 30 SOO players.
Hooks blamed by some posters for losing Frizzel who signed a year before he took over, McInness signed with the Sharks before Hook had any influence except for the fact he wasnt Mary, and Hook wanted to keep Host but the damage had already been done.
Welsh not signing was before Hook had been appointed and we have been in discussions with a number of players but it has been our club that has walked away because the perceived value was less than the amount that would have had to be paid.

Is Hook the greatest coach, I dont know but I know he is nowhere near the worst and he is probably what we need, there are a number of players being moved on, we are making targeted signings and the "mates" who just want to turn up and get pay check have been tapped on the shoulder. This isn't a two minute fix and the pain will not suddenly disappear, it will take time and some astute maneuvering before the roster is sorted.

A big tick by me Carlton.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Another way of looking at recruitment.

Where is the money that will be freed up by the exit of big $$ players next season going?

Vaughan - $800k
Norman - $800k
McInnes - $620k
Dufty - $500k (what I've read but happy to be corrected)

All gone. Free to spend on new folk, although some of this may be spent on contract increase of some existing players.

So who are we spending this on?

Su'a, Burgess, Molo are in. Possibly Mbye (but he'll be subsidised by the Tigers). That's nowhere near the value of the 4 players above ($2.7M). Anyone know the value of these new contracts?

To me - we should have a warchest to play with. I can't see we've spent it all on these guys. Surely we've got plenty still to spend if we choose....or if we've got any takers..

And taking it s step further... add in for this season Graham ($350k) and Frizell ($650k I understood, but again happy to be corrected) - there's another $1M. Not including the likes of Host, Saab, and others who'd be on smaller $$).

So by that maths - at least $3.7M from savings, vs Spend on contract upgrades (if any) and signings of Beale, FarmerSilly, Alvaro, Burns, Bird, McCullough, McGuire, Molo, Su'a, Burgess etc etc. There should be a lot of money left in the kitty...

 

[Dragonslayer]

Another way of looking at recruitment.

Where is the money that will be freed up by the exit of big $$ players next season going?

Vaughan - $800k
Norman - $800k
McInnes - $620k
Dufty - $500k (what I've read but happy to be corrected)

All gone. Free to spend on new folk, although some of this may be spent on contract increase of some existing players.

So who are we spending this on?

Su'a, Burgess, Molo are in. Possibly Mbye (but he'll be subsidised by the Tigers). That's nowhere near the value of the 4 players above ($2.7M). Anyone know the value of these new contracts?

To me - we should have a warchest to play with. I can't see we've spent it all on these guys. Surely we've got plenty still to spend if we choose....or if we've got any takers..

And taking it s step further... add in for this season Graham ($350k) and Frizell ($650k I understood, but again happy to be corrected) - there's another $1M. Not including the likes of Host, Saab, and others who'd be on smaller $$).

So by that maths - at least $3.7M from savings, vs Spend on contract upgrades (if any) and signings of Beale, FarmerSilly, Alvaro, Burns, Bird, McCullough, McGuire, Molo, Su'a, Burgess etc etc. There should be a lot of money left in the kitty...

BBJF, a lot of things to consider here. Yes we have let players go and we have some players coming in as you have stated.

If we look to our roster:
Sloan and Amone, would need to be upgraded from DS to top 30 contracts
Both Feagai boys and Sullivan are off contract next year ie they can be approached as of Nov 1.
I'm not sure and happy to be corrected, but were Bird, Alvaro, Macca and Maguire subsidised by their former club for this year only for this year, or was entirety of their contract with us? If not, then that what have to be factored in.
Do we want to keep Lawrie, Sims and Burns? as they are off contract also and would be looking for upgrades sooner rather than later.
We don't know, from our previous master of recruitment, who is/are on rolling contracts ie: 200k this year 300k next for example.
What is the agreed $$$ for Mbye? we don't know.
Do we re-sign Beale and Fuimaono, and at what rate? If we don't re-sign them, then we have to replace them and with whom and at what rate?
Last count we still have 3 or 4 spots remaining in our roster, of which young Coric should be one, and at what rate.
And haven't we recently extended Ramsey.
And finally we have to factor in JDB at full, as reported, 750k for next year.

It's a very complicated exercise, and not so sure if it's black and white as some media reports.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

BBJF, a lot of things to consider here. Yes we have let players go and we have some players coming in as you have stated.

If we look to our roster:
Sloan and Amone, would need to be upgraded from DS to top 30 contracts
Both Feagai boys and Sullivan are off contract next year ie they can be approached as of Nov 1.
I'm not sure and happy to be corrected, but were Bird, Alvaro, Macca and Maguire subsidised by their former club for this year only for this year, or was entirety of their contract with us? If not, then that what have to be factored in.
Do we want to keep Lawrie, Sims and Burns? as they are off contract also and would be looking for upgrades sooner rather than later.
We don't know, from our previous master of recruitment, who is/are on rolling contracts ie: 200k this year 300k next for example.
What is the agreed $$$ for Mbye? we don't know.
Do we re-sign Beale and Fuimaono, and at what rate? If we don't re-sign them, then we have to replace them and with whom and at what rate?
Last count we still have 3 or 4 spots remaining in our roster, of which young Coric should be one, and at what rate.
And haven't we recently extended Ramsey.
And finally we have to factor in JDB at full, as reported, 750k for next year.

It's a very complicated exercise, and not so sure if it's black and white as some media reports.

Mate i hear ya. Wise words

Absolutely complicated... like Chinese algebra..

At the moment I can't, for the life of me, see that the money we are saving with players leaving comes near what we should be spending for next year as it stands. So yeah - we should still have plenty to spend with a few spots available... with decent coin to spend. Or do we?

I'm just a fan. There are people in the dragons club who are paid to manage this. I'm not confident in them though.

 

[BLM01]

Mate i hear ya. Wise words

Absolutely complicated... like Chinese algebra..

At the moment I can't, for the life of me, see that the money we are saving with players leaving comes near what we should be spending for next year as it stands. So yeah - we should still have plenty to spend with a few spots available... with decent coin to spend. Or do we?

I'm just a fan. There are people in the dragons club who are paid to manage this. I'm not confident in them though.

Wait to you see the cash freed up by the end of 2022.
2023 is our spending year and big changes abound

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Wait to you see the cash freed up by the end of 2022.
2023 is our spending year and big changes abound

“abound”!!!

 

[BLM01]

“abound”!!!

Yes "abound'!!!