Sack mcgregor

[giboz71]

Yep we absolutely should be aiming higher. But I just don't believe that sacking Mary alone is the answer.

A premiership calibre halfback is a must, and as we saw on Sunday an attacking skilful fullback is imperative as well. We're slowly solving those problems.

People say they want to win a comp by sacking Mary, yet want to persist with Duges as fullback? If we really want to win a comp, this goes much further than the coach.

Just ask Hasler and the Dogs.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

"Overachieved to me that's just some made up word" love that scene from Shawshank Redemption
The use of this word is just an excuse for people to be able to praise Mc Fookknuckle when they wish and to avoid scrutinising him when they should.
It is a false premise that because someone in the media said we might finish 2nd last that anywhere above that is a measure of success or to be considered overachieving.
Even if we agreed that by getting to 1st in the first 10 weeks we did overachieve, the fact that we got there is surely the true measure of success and it should be applauded.
As a result we should change our settings and now rightly gauge all subsequent things against that which we have achieved.
Therefore we should be asking what happened, why didn't we sustain that and should a tenuous hold on 8th spot now be considered as underachieving?
If you gave your investment advisor $1,000 and they got it up to $2,000 but when it turned south they hung on too long and you ended up with $1,010 would you consider that an achievement or a failure to capitalise and a waisted opportunity?

Good analogy

 

[The Damo]

Amen!

Too many people in here seeing scraping into the 8 as an achievement. Too many people who just want us to put in effort, regardless of results. Too many people are content with just supporting the club, and dont actually care if they do well. Its disturbing.

These are the people our incompetent board and management feed off. These are the people, who accept mediocrity and failure as just part-and-parcel of the game, who will end up watching meekly on the sideline and waving the flags if/when this club get relocated, merged again or folds.

Just because people expect us to be shit at the start of the season doesnt mean that finishing slightly-above shit is a successful season. I dont expect us to win every year, but I expect us to be in the running. And if we dont win, we do what is necessary to win the following year. And so on. Success should be demanded, not a convenient surprise. Our early season run should be the norm, not a happy accident that has us waiting for the drop.

People look at Melbourne and expect them to win and be successful. THAT is where we should be. Not jumping for joy at the fact that we are clinging to 8th because people expected us to be really shit this year.

I agree, that's where I want us to be too. And it's probably where most of those who get labelled apologists want to be too.
But it's not accepting mediocrity to say that the football team has improved significantly this year. 4th most points in attack is an improvement. Doing it with McCrone at 7 is frankly remarkable. It's not unreasonable to expect that with Hunt at 7, with hutch, field or Mann as backup the team should improve its attack again. If Mary can learn some more lessons and the team can maintain a similar improvement trajectory into next year, we should be in the running for top 4, and with luck even the big one. It's not jumping for joy, it's recognising an upwards trajectory.
Can't deny, I'm a natural optimist when it comes to the footy team.
However -
The board could most charitably be described as stale, moribund and incompetent. Unfortunately with how the power there is structured it's not going to change any time soon without external pressure, either from a new owner or the NRL.
But that doesn't mean I can't recognise that Melbourne (and Brisbane) has advantages that make success easier for them. One club cities, and even more the backing of newscorp provides a much higher starting point.

 

[getsmarty]

Amen!

Too many people in here seeing scraping into the 8 as an achievement. Too many people who just want us to put in effort, regardless of results. Too many people are content with just supporting the club, and dont actually care if they do well. Its disturbing.

These are the people our incompetent board and management feed off. These are the people, who accept mediocrity and failure as just part-and-parcel of the game, who will end up watching meekly on the sideline and waving the flags if/when this club get relocated, merged again or folds.

Just because people expect us to be shit at the start of the season doesnt mean that finishing slightly-above shit is a successful season. I dont expect us to win every year, but I expect us to be in the running. And if we dont win, we do what is necessary to win the following year. And so on. Success should be demanded, not a convenient surprise. Our early season run should be the norm, not a happy accident that has us waiting for the drop.

People look at Melbourne and expect them to win and be successful. THAT is where we should be. Not jumping for joy at the fact that we are clinging to 8th because people expected us to be really shit this year.

Well Said...We have shown little since Bennett left in 2012...That's 5 years to rebuild!!!! Plenty of time to get it right and IMHO re-Signing Mary for another 2 years means we will more than likely not see a premiership in that time period. ( 2012 - 2019 ) .

We should have been in a position to challenge for the title by now if our club had its act together.Its almost as if the club is expecting us all to wait another 30 years before we win a title again.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Yep we absolutely should be aiming higher. But I just don't believe that sacking Mary alone is the answer.

A premiership calibre halfback is a must, and as we saw on Sunday an attacking skilful fullback is imperative as well. We're slowly solving those problems.

People say they want to win a comp by sacking Mary, yet want to persist with Duges as fullback? If we really want to win a comp, this goes much further than the coach.

Just ask Hasler and the Dogs.

I think the point is that the early decision to extend McGregor's tenure has severely reduced our options.
If we make the eight and maybe win the first knock out semi, there would have been some justification at least to renew MacGregor's contract.
If we bombed out we could have at least gone in a different direction after 3 years of green horn coaching. Then there would have been no need to sack him. Just not renew.
It goes much further than the coach because the administration keeps making decisions on the coaching function that are knee jerk and a compromise.
Players come and go, the coach is a constant and he has the ultimate responsibility regardless of other factors.
Should we fail now, then we only have 2 choices:
1. Persevere with McGregor for another 2 years which would be a massive compromise and coin toss.
2. Sack the coach and appointment someone else which will cost the club money.
If you really want to compare Hasler's situation then he could very well get sacked at the end of the season - even though he was also renewed.
The difference is that the Canterbury board demands success in the form of top four finishes and Premierships.
That is their benchmark and they will not compromise - even with a coach of Halser's reputation
On the other hand, we are doing cartwheels and back slapping if we make the 8.
Last year was one of the worst seasons of St. George football that I have had the misfortune of witnessing.
We finished a miserable 11th and that finish actually flattered us.
McGregor should have been sacked then and there.
Coaching FG is a serious business and not a place for apprentices.
I am not anti McGregor, I am anti the people who appointed him in the first place.

 

[getsmarty]

I think the point is that the early decision to extend McGregor's tenure has severely reduced our options.
If we make the eight and maybe win the first knock out semi, there would have been some justification at least to renew MacGregor's contract.
If we bombed out we could have at least gone in a different direction after 3 years of green horn coaching. Then there would have been no need to sack him. Just not renew.
It goes much further than the coach because the administration keeps making decisions on the coaching function that are knee jerk and a compromise.
Players come and go, the coach is a constant and he has the ultimate responsibility regardless of other factors.
Should we fail now, then we only have 2 choices:
1. Persevere with McGregor for another 2 years which would be a massive compromise and coin toss.
2. Sack the coach and appointment someone else which will cost the club money.
If you really want to compare Hasler's situation then he could very well get sacked at the end of the season - even though he was also renewed.
The difference is that the Canterbury board demands success in the form of top four finishes and Premierships.
That is their benchmark and they will not compromise - even with a coach of Halser's reputation
On the other hand, we are doing cartwheels and back slapping if we make the 8.
Last year was one of the worst seasons of St. George football that I have had the misfortune of witnessing.
We finished a miserable 11th and that finish actually flattered us.
McGregor should have been sacked then and there.
Coaching FG is a serious business and not a place for apprentices.
I am not anti McGregor, I am anti the people who appointed him in the first place.

Well Said Dennis.

 

[ALSGI]

Amen!

Too many people in here seeing scraping into the 8 as an achievement. Too many people who just want us to put in effort, regardless of results. Too many people are content with just supporting the club, and dont actually care if they do well. Its disturbing.

These are the people our incompetent board and management feed off. These are the people, who accept mediocrity and failure as just part-and-parcel of the game, who will end up watching meekly on the sideline and waving the flags if/when this club get relocated, merged again or folds.

Just because people expect us to be shit at the start of the season doesnt mean that finishing slightly-above shit is a successful season. I dont expect us to win every year, but I expect us to be in the running. And if we dont win, we do what is necessary to win the following year. And so on. Success should be demanded, not a convenient surprise. Our early season run should be the norm, not a happy accident that has us waiting for the drop.

People look at Melbourne and expect them to win and be successful. THAT is where we should be. Not jumping for joy at the fact that we are clinging to 8th because people expected us to be really shit this year.

Agree with some of your thoughts BennyV however it doesn't mean people can't celebrate our team winning in glorious fashion against a top 4 team or in a tight game against cellar dwellers. I can think of worse scenarios than scraping into the 8.

I've enjoyed the roller coaster this year, thought we'd struggle to improve on last year, then thought we'd take the minor premiership, then thought we wouldn't win another game, now thinking we could win the rest of the games this year (including finals). My poor old dog makes himself scarce when he hears the kick off whistle.

As for finals, it's a dead set lottery once we're there even for a well drilled cheating outfit like Melbourne.

Two things that remain constant for me is my passion for the Dragons and my absolute hatred for those responsible for the mismanagement of our club and the old boys garbage in HQ. As for our current coach, I'll give him a judgement at seasons end whilst being totally gob smacked at why this amateurish failure was extended so early in the year. Happy to have his arm chopped off instead of his head if we do well and only lose because of officials like Perenara and Patten.

On another note Mediocrity and Failure is actually part of the game, always has been and always will be whether it's the board, coaches or players. For every win or success there must be a loss or failure. I think people can continue to support our great club after some success without being called apologists, same as people can call for sackings and the guillotine after some miserable failure. Like you, I do demand success from the Dragons but just don't expect it. I'm guessing the coach and his cohorts do the same.

I'm not apologising for being optimistic this week, nor for wanting mass sackings a couple weeks ago. Calling fans meekly for waving flags in the midst of this roller coaster is piss poor imo.

 

[BennyV]

Agree with some of your thoughts BennyV however it doesn't mean people can't celebrate our team winning in glorious fashion against a top 4 team or in a tight game against cellar dwellers. I can think of worse scenarios than scraping into the 8.

I've enjoyed the roller coaster this year, thought we'd struggle to improve on last year, then thought we'd take the minor premiership, then thought we wouldn't win another game, now thinking we could win the rest of the games this year (including finals). My poor old dog makes himself scarce when he hears the kick off whistle.

As for finals, it's a dead set lottery once we're there even for a well drilled cheating outfit like Melbourne.

Two things that remain constant for me is my passion for the Dragons and my absolute hatred for those responsible for the mismanagement of our club and the old boys garbage in HQ. As for our current coach, I'll give him a judgement at seasons end whilst being totally gob smacked at why this amateurish failure was extended so early in the year. Happy to have his arm chopped off instead of his head if we do well and only lose because of officials like Perenara and Patten.

On another note Mediocrity and Failure is actually part of the game, always has been and always will be whether it's the board, coaches or players. For every win or success there must be a loss or failure. I think people can continue to support our great club after some success without being called apologists, same as people can call for sackings and the guillotine after some miserable failure. Like you, I do demand success from the Dragons but just don't expect it. I'm guessing the coach and his cohorts do the same.

I'm not apologising for being optimistic this week, nor for wanting mass sackings a couple weeks ago. Calling fans meekly for waving flags in the midst of this roller coaster is piss poor imo.

The original post was one being critical of those of us who still want the average-at-best coach gone regardless of a win on the weekend. I've not mentioned anything about fans waving the flags during an up and down year, I'm commenting on those who call it a success when we fall into the Top 8 (a la 2015) or say rubbish things like 'at least the effort is there' when we lose 7/10 games. I've not called our specifics, but I've got no problem labelling this type of mediocrity-acceptance as detrimental to the club overall and referring to it as the crutch of our incompetent management.

And yes, failure and mediocrity is inevitable across the league. There are the same numbers of wins as losses across 16 teams. But I don't care about 15 of them, and none of the above means we should just be ok with being middle of the road in the way that our management and a portion of fans are.

I also disagree that the finals are a lottery. You think Bennett went into the 2010 final series thinking 'well, whatever happens happens, it's all up in the air here'? If he did, we wouldn't have that title. Simply making the finals is not good enough, and falling into 8 should not be considered a success. The fact that our coach constantly referred to it as such is a main reason he should have been booted last year, as it's completely symbolic of the acceptance of mediocrity that flows through the clubs management and some of the fan base.

 

[giboz71]

I'm still not convinced Mary is as poor a coach as people are making out.

Is he an elite coach, absolutely not. But in reality, there are only 2 really elite coaches, Bellamy and Bennett. Robinson and Hasler possibly a notch below (although Hasler is quickly losing his lustre).

Mary's winning percentage is 48% which granted is not great, but in the same league as Cleary, Henry and Arthur. Can we do better, absolutely, hence we tried hard to get Bennett back and went hard for Bellamy and Hasler from all accounts. I personally would have loved to have gotten Cleary but he turned us down.

I'm still of the belief that 2018 is the year Mary needs to deliver. He has premiership calibre halves, one of the best packs in the comp, and a host of talented juniors to develop. There are no more excuses.

It's top 4 or bust as far as I'm concerned for 2018. If it doesn't happen, I'll happily jump on the Sack Mary train, but I'm happy to reserve my judgement till then.

 

[Slippery Morris]

All we can ask for is improvement from the previous season and that is what we are seeing this season. If Saints finish 7th then next year they should expect them to finish higher and each year again higher.

My main gripe was the standard of footy Saints played last season and I thought Mary was not capable of improving this. He has with the attack now one of the best in the comp. The dip in form was purely injury related. Against the red hot Chooks Saints looked really good and most of all confident until Widdop go injured. The Chooks at the time were hot favourites with Melbourne. Saints were carving them up. Once Widdop got injured they had McCrone. Now that should not be a problem going forward from 2018 because he won't be there and if Widdop or Hunt get injured then Mann, Field or even Hutch will get the call. Why Mary picks McCrone is anybody's guess. Every coach has a player they pick for some reason no matter how bad they go.

Mary was quoted in the press as saying he picked Dufty against Manly because the time was right as he had a lot of experience around him. Maybe once Widdop got injured because McCrone was the only experienced half that is why he kept picking him.

The Storm have 3 untouchable players in Slater, Cam Smith and Cronk. Put them in any team and they come close to winning the comp. Once Cam Smith retires they will come back to be the same level as the other 15 teams.

And if you want to sit here feeling bad about the side performance, it would be worse if you were a Knights, Dogs or Tigers fan.

 

[Lizzi the dragon]

Incorrect assessment on your part
We see a premiership is possible every year and judge performance and outcomes against that expectation
In your case you want to say that a premiership is on offer as a sign of great achievement but then hedge your bet by saying not winning it is acceptable and making the 8 or finishing higher than what the media says is the measure of success
You can't be telling us we are blind and at the same time turn a blind eye to poor outcomes yourself
When you understand accountability you wil then have 20/20 vision and no longer be blinkered by mediocrity

haha incorrect assessment on the part where you say just one person in the media had us coming 2nd last which in actuall fact every betting agencie newspaper and so called expert had us at last,
stop analysing everything I write and look at how good this year has been under McGregor. There the facts, not the. hypothetical bullshit Mary haters use to support there view on what a bad coach he is.. there's going to be good and bad times ahead, no matter who our coach is. Right now under Mary is a good time to be a dragons supporter and that's where my love for him stems. And he bleeds red and white. Where bloody lucky to have him I tell you that

 

[Lizzi the dragon]

All we can ask for is improvement from the previous season and that is what we are seeing this season. If Saints finish 7th then next year they should expect them to finish higher and each year again higher.

My main gripe was the standard of footy Saints played last season and I thought Mary was not capable of improving this. He has with the attack now one of the best in the comp. The dip in form was purely injury related. Against the red hot Chooks Saints looked really good and most of all confident until Widdop go injured. The Chooks at the time were hot favourites with Melbourne. Saints were carving them up. Once Widdop got injured they had McCrone. Now that should not be a problem going forward from 2018 because he won't be there and if Widdop or Hunt get injured then Mann, Field or even Hutch will get the call. Why Mary picks McCrone is anybody's guess. Every coach has a player they pick for some reason no matter how bad they go.

Mary was quoted in the press as saying he picked Dufty against Manly because the time was right as he had a lot of experience around him. Maybe once Widdop got injured because McCrone was the only experienced half that is why he kept picking him.

The Storm have 3 untouchable players in Slater, Cam Smith and Cronk. Put them in any team and they come close to winning the comp. Once Cam Smith retires they will come back to be the same level as the other 15 teams.

And if you want to sit here feeling bad about the side performance, it would be worse if you were a Knights, Dogs or Tigers fan.

On McCrone the talk he has on the field is quite good and he directs the forwards quite well it's just his finishing touches that let him down, on a good day his up there with the best halves.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

haha incorrect assessment on the part where you say just one person in the media had us coming 2nd last which in actuall fact every betting agencie newspaper and so called expert had us at last,
stop analysing everything I write and look at how good this year has been under McGregor. There the facts, not the. hypothetical bullshit Mary haters use to support there view on what a bad coach he is.. there's going to be good and bad times ahead, no matter who our coach is. Right now under Mary is a good time to be a dragons supporter and that's where my love for him stems. And he bleeds red and white. Where bloody lucky to have him I tell you that

It's great that you love McGregor so much - good for you!
But you are not very objective.
"hypothetical bullshit" translates to opinions that don't agree with you. Right?

 

[2010]

Does McIdiot have the necessary skill set and knowledge next year when we get Hunt and hopefully Dufty playing first grade.
He has been around average or below so far. Can he make the jump to the next level. I have my doubts.
If we have a good start to next season there will be a golden opportunity to market our games at Win and Kogarah. The opportunity is there to enhance our brand and get back the big red V as a dominating force for several years.

 

[BennyV]

The Storm have 3 untouchable players in Slater, Cam Smith and Cronk. Put them in any team and they come close to winning the comp. Once Cam Smith retires they will come back to be the same level as the other 15 teams.

And if you want to sit here feeling bad about the side performance, it would be worse if you were a Knights, Dogs or Tigers fan.

Melbourne: Constantly in the premiership race, actively held onto arguably the best coach of the modern era (ie recognise the value of a good coach), developed and actively retained 3 of the best players of the modern era, replaced/improved on every star player who leaves them and ruthlessly pursued and signed some of the best youngsters in the country to take the reigns when the aforementioned players retire, doing everything they can to ensure continued success.

Dragons: "Yeah, well, at least we aren't as bad as <insert other shit teams here>..."

And people wonder why we are concerned about acceptance of mediocrity.

And for the record, I hate Melbourne! They are just below Dogs and Sharks on the merkin scale. But a big part of that is because they are so f**king good and professional at everything they do to chase success, while the club I love seems to be content with being slightly less shit than the worst clubs.

 

[Old Timer]

All we can ask for is improvement from the previous season and that is what we are seeing this season. If Saints finish 7th then next year they should expect them to finish higher and each year again higher.

My main gripe was the standard of footy Saints played last season and I thought Mary was not capable of improving this. He has with the attack now one of the best in the comp. The dip in form was purely injury related. Against the red hot Chooks Saints looked really good and most of all confident until Widdop go injured. The Chooks at the time were hot favourites with Melbourne. Saints were carving them up. Once Widdop got injured they had McCrone. Now that should not be a problem going forward from 2018 because he won't be there and if Widdop or Hunt get injured then Mann, Field or even Hutch will get the call. Why Mary picks McCrone is anybody's guess. Every coach has a player they pick for some reason no matter how bad they go.

Mary was quoted in the press as saying he picked Dufty against Manly because the time was right as he had a lot of experience around him. Maybe once Widdop got injured because McCrone was the only experienced half that is why he kept picking him.

The Storm have 3 untouchable players in Slater, Cam Smith and Cronk. Put them in any team and they come close to winning the comp. Once Cam Smith retires they will come back to be the same level as the other 15 teams.

And if you want to sit here feeling bad about the side performance, it would be worse if you were a Knights, Dogs or Tigers fan.

I agree the standard of footy we now play is brighter and more entertaining when it is going well but is still equally as horrible when we go back to our old ways.
The best of it this year has been great but why is it that we have such poor games and bad lapses and is it not fair to be pissed off by those things?
Re the untouchable 3 at Storm well the fact is they are already well and truly into replacement mode and the Storm will still be up there when they are gone because they have a system and a coach that knows how to get young players grounded in 1st grade and we are not even remotely close to having that.
The comment re other supporters is merely a throw away line as it doesn't matter how or what they feel and they can dress their issues in their forum in their own way.
The non performance of those teams is no justification for our coach.

 

[Old Timer]

Melbourne: Constantly in the premiership race, actively held onto arguably the best coach of the modern era (ie recognise the value of a good coach), developed and actively retained 3 of the best players of the modern era, replaced/improved on every star player who leaves them and ruthlessly pursued and signed some of the best youngsters in the country to take the reigns when the aforementioned players retire, doing everything they can to ensure continued success.

Dragons: "Yeah, well, at least we aren't as bad as <insert other shit teams here>..."

And people wonder why we are concerned about acceptance of mediocrity.

And for the record, I hate Melbourne! They are just below Dogs and Sharks on the merkin scale. But a big part of that is because they are so f**king good and professional at everything they do to chase success, while the club I love seems to be content with being slightly less shit than the worst clubs.

Nice post Benny V says it all really.

 

[Crush]

Agree with some of your thoughts BennyV however it doesn't mean people can't celebrate our team winning in glorious fashion against a top 4 team or in a tight game against cellar dwellers. I can think of worse scenarios than scraping into the 8.

I've enjoyed the roller coaster this year, thought we'd struggle to improve on last year, then thought we'd take the minor premiership, then thought we wouldn't win another game, now thinking we could win the rest of the games this year (including finals). My poor old dog makes himself scarce when he hears the kick off whistle.

As for finals, it's a dead set lottery once we're there even for a well drilled cheating outfit like Melbourne.

Two things that remain constant for me is my passion for the Dragons and my absolute hatred for those responsible for the mismanagement of our club and the old boys garbage in HQ. As for our current coach, I'll give him a judgement at seasons end whilst being totally gob smacked at why this amateurish failure was extended so early in the year. Happy to have his arm chopped off instead of his head if we do well and only lose because of officials like Perenara and Patten.

On another note Mediocrity and Failure is actually part of the game, always has been and always will be whether it's the board, coaches or players. For every win or success there must be a loss or failure. I think people can continue to support our great club after some success without being called apologists, same as people can call for sackings and the guillotine after some miserable failure. Like you, I do demand success from the Dragons but just don't expect it. I'm guessing the coach and his cohorts do the same.

I'm not apologising for being optimistic this week, nor for wanting mass sackings a couple weeks ago. Calling fans meekly for waving flags in the midst of this roller coaster is piss poor imo.

Nice Post ALSGI, says it all really

 

[slippery5]

On McCrone the talk he has on the field is quite good and he directs the forwards quite well it's just his finishing touches that let him down, on a good day his up there with the best halves.

I'm betting my house on you not getting any likes to this post…….

 

[MilanDragon]

Last year I would've been just as happy as anyone to see McGregor get the sack - he deserved it. Astonishingly however, the board saw fit to keep him. So at the start of the season I said if we get top 6 and play attacking good football I'd be happy. Not quite top 6, but definitely the brand has improved.

We were on track for a top 4 season until we lost our captain and 5/8 Widdop. Don't forget we are already playing this season with our second choice half (Hutch was first choice). So we lost 3 games on the trot against three sides expected to dominate the season; Roosters, sharks and Storm, all without our first choice halves - besides the storm game we could've won the other 2. After that we went through a dip that had real cause for concern, but it's now about how we finish the last 6 games, if Mary has truly learnt and improved as a coach we will see that with consistent results and good football, much like we saw at the start of season.

Lastly, we know he is no super coach, nor are most people a super coach from day 1. As I mentioned in another thread, Bellamy has one premiership in about 13 years of coaching (but is very good at getting his team to the business end). He didn't win his first until year 4 or5. Hasler didn't even make the finals his first year of coaching but did every year after that - however it also took him 5 years to win his first premiership. He has won 2 in total and he had a much better roster than Mary did when he took over.

Even look at Bennett who is a first class coach, but what did he achieve at Newcastle - 1 finals series appearance in 3 years, with much more resources available than Mary has.

The reality is it takes time for a coach to command respect and get results - especially from a club that had an average roster and really needed to rebuild.