Saints Problem

[imported_SaintFirman]

G'day

Before I start I'll just let you all know a little about myself as I am new, I've been a lifelong St. George and St. George Illawarra supporter, you could I'm a long time listener first time poster to this board and have found alot of people here seem to have an in depth knowledge of football and a love for the club, I too like to think of myself as one of these people.

Now onto the real stuff, I continually find myself asking the same question all the time, what is wrong with the saints? We have classy backs in the likes of Barrett(mastermind), Timmins(solid in defence), Gasnier(great in attack), Cooper(very under rated), Roberts(coming along steadily), Hornby(Stable anywhere). Also throughout the year we saw great talent in the likes of Laloata, Kativerata, Clarke, Bower,Kent(departing), Simmondsand Gorrell. So to say are backs are lacking would be unjust.

So I then asked myself, what about the forward pack? Again, there are great players in the likes of Ryles(Origin Rep), Bailey(Origin Rep), Riddell(Close to Aus. Rep), Thompson(massive workload), Kite(Dynamic Youngster) aswell as Smith who I thought had an outstanding year and was close to being our player of the year, but alas we let him go.

There seems to be nothing wrong there either, so what could it be? We've all read the posts about needing a stable halfback, with the likes of Firman, Byrne, Kerr and Head in the running, will this solve our problems? Well it would account for alot, a good supporting halfback for Barrett that can take the pressure off him and create a platform for Barrett's running game which we saw throughout the last few games, and which I wish we saw more of throughout the year, would be a big benefit for the club.

Also, another thing I have noticed is that when Riddell is on, the forwards are almost always fired up, and seem to slightly dose off when the likes of Millard come on, I'm not saying Millard isn't good, because he's also had a great season, but maybe he lacks that tiny bit of buzz that Riddell has, so another thing which would benefit the team would be if Riddell could pace himself and manage to stay on for alot longer, maybe 60-80 minutes a game, unlike what we saw this year where he comes on either in the first or last 20mins of each half.

On top of that, is Amos our best fullback prospect? I think he would be better suited out on the wing, where he can use his speed, I would not mind seeing Reece Simmonds come in as a permanent fullback or even Hornby. Another thing would be direction, at times Saints lack direction on the field, other times they seem as if they are really premiership chances, I think this may be caused be leadership, we need a captain that will tell players what to do and when, and forget about hurting others feelings, for example if the team is slacking off Barrett should give them a spray just like the ones Freddy Fittler gives to the Roosters when they are slacking off.

Or maybe it was just the coach? Andrew Farrar could have been lacking that tiny extra bit of spark that the Saints needed, I can't really comment on this because I haven't been to any Saints training sessions, if anyone can comment on that it would be great.

In the end I think it comes down toa couple of factors, and thoseare being able to apply pressure and withstand it, for example against the Scum in the last match, I think the pressure just got to us, because towards the end of each half we slacked off a little bit, got into strife and coughed up the points, and when we were down their end, we didn't always apply pressure and get the points, some of that on the line defence was horrible and I can only put that one down under pressure because I know our boys could have done alot better.

Anyways, let me know what you guys think, I'm interested to see other peoples perspectives.

Go the Saints!

 

[Willow]

Excellent post locky... and welcome aboard.

You've asked a number of questions there. IMO, we have a new coach and history tells me that that will mean a new team.
We have a number of smokies who may come in from the cold but imo, this isnt a bad side:

Fullback: Reece Simmonds
Wingers: Matt Cooper, Amos Roberts
Centres: Shaun Timmins, Mark Gasnier
Five eighth: Trent Barrett (c)
Half back: Dean Byrne
Lock: Gary McBride
Second Row: Lance Thompson (vc), Brent Kite
Props: Luke Bailey, Jason Ryles
Hooker: Mark Riddell
Interchange: Craig Stapleton, Ben Hornby, Nathan Tutt, Aaron Gorrell.

 

[imported_SaintFirman]

Hey,

It's good to see someone's awake.
That side looks pretty good, but with the rumoured signing of John Cross, my side might be a tiny bit different. Although I was amazed to see you put Reece Simmonds in at fullback, and Hornby out of the side as when me and my mates are having a chat I usually opt for the same sort of line up, but alas get laughed at.

Fullback: Reece Simmonds
Wingers: Matt Cooper, Amos Roberts
Centres: Shaun Timmins, Mark Gasnier
Five eighth: Trent Barrett (c)
Half back: Dean Byrne
Lock: Brent Kite
Second Row: Lance Thompson (vc),John Cross
Props: Luke Bailey, Jason Ryles
Hooker: Mark Riddell
Interchange: Craig Stapleton, Ben Hornby, Nathan Tutt, Aaron Gorrell

Also with the rumoured signings of Robbie Simpson and Mark Mundine they may become an option later on, although Tutt and Stapleton are good choices off the bench, Ross should have been there sometime this year maybe to encourage him to stay with the club.

Do you know why we didn't use him throughout the year?

Cheers - Hoping you're still awake

 

[bender]

From a Non St George perspective: The back three listed are very ordinary. They definitely are not in the same class as the back three from the better clubs. They may be young and talented but they just are not quite as good as many other back threes running aroung. Definitely below average. Centres: This is a strong point for St George. Timmins and Gasnier are both very good, but they do seem to be a little injury prone and Gasnier is not as good as many of the Saint George fans think he is. Having said that, their centres are as good as any in the game and definitely above average. Halves: Barrett is obviously class but his halfback whoever that ends up being just isnt good enough. The best hope is for a young player to emerge or to hope Willie Peters can improve (he is not that old and does seem to be improving although I am not sure is still at St George this year). Overall the St George halves are average although if they find a good halfback or if the halfback happens to have a good game, they can easily become first class halves. They just need someone to step up, like Sherwin did last year. Backrow: McBride, Thompson, Kite (or John Cross). All three are average. Thompson is an experienced solid player but that is all. John Cross would be the same. Kite and McBride, I don’t know too much about and they are probably young and talented but they are not yet as good as most sides (or certainly the top sides). On the whole the backrow are below average. Front Row: Bailey, Riles, Riddell. Definitely as good as any front row in the game and definitely above average. However, they are not necessarilly any better than front rows from the clubs like Broncos, Bulldogs, Easts, Warriors or even Cronulla or Melbourne. Still, I would give them above average. Reserves: I don’t know most of the St George bench, although Millard is definitely no better than average as were a few of the other names I can remember who sat on the bench through last year. I would suggest that on the whole, despite the fact there are probably many young players who will be very good, at the moment they are only an average to below average bench. They are certainly not in the same class as the Broncos, Easts, Bulldogs etc bench. In an unbiased rating, St George seem to have some first class players who they can build a nucleus around and they now need their unknown players to go the next step up in class in order for them to compete against the very top sides. It is because of these class players that there is no doubt that on their day they could beat anybody, but at the moment a title looks to be beyond them (failing a good run under the Mcintyre system). I would not agree that they have underachieved in fact, I think their performance this year was better than to be expected. I actually think that the St George policy in regards to playing personnel in the last couple of years is to be admired. They have developed players rather than go out and by average players like most other Sydney clubs tend to do. They are probably a good Fulback, halfback and back rower or two away from a championship but quite simply, no player who fits that description has been willing to play for St George has fitted that bill and they have not been tempted to sign average players to try to compensate. Eventually, some of their promising youngsters will really step up like Ryles and Bailey did last year and the year before and they will be a force. But it wont happen for a couple of years most likely and the danger is that they will lose some of their classy players to the salary cap or other factors, in that time but I am not sure.

 

[Willow]

locky:
Hornby did a good job at fullback but he was always there as a stop gap. Simmonds is better and would have kept Hornby on the bench if not for injury.
the great thing about Ben Hornby is that he play anywhere in the backline. With a bit more beef, we could even swing him into lock but that would get laugh.

btw, Ben Ross is playing with Penrith next year.
Mundine signing... maybe, can't bank on it. Blacklock too.... don't hold your breath. Robbie Simpson? I'd be surprised.

John Cross, imo, would be a great player to have on board. Time to up the average age.

Bender:
Back three:
IMO, Roberts is a winger first.Cooper improved immensely in 2002 and Simmonds is a class act.

Halfback
Willie is playing for Souths next year.
Dean Byrne is a good halfback and probably would have played in first grade barring injury.

McBride, Kite and Thompson. I see that we have some unanswered questions at lock. If coached right, Kite and Tutt (switching from the bench) will stand out in 2003. Thommo is the most consistent player in the team, imho.
McBride is untested and to be honest, we need to address the lock forward issue.

Reserves: Millard is all but gone. We'll have to wait and see but I don't think they can fit him in in 2003.
Stapleton was playing his best first grade football in the latter part of the 2002 season. He was Saints' best player in the First Division Grand Final. An ideal player to have as a reserve forward.
Tutt, who I mentioned, is a backrower and will shift with Kite and Hornby has already been mentioned as well.
Aaron Gorrell is close to having a big season. He can kick goals and his dummy half play is good. He filled in at halfback in Auckland and was magnificent. He is a hooker though and a perfect backup for Riddell.

Thanks for for your input, Bender. Always good to get a unbiased opinion.

 

[Willow]

Correction: Sorry locky, I see you said Mark Mundine and not Choc.

 

[imported_SaintFirman]

np Willow.

If Choc were to come back, I wouldn't necessarily slot him straight back into 5/8, I think at most if he wanted to make a comeback would that he might snatch the #7 spot.

Blacklock coming back would add great depth to our squad, but one thing I have noticed is one year our attack is great and defense is lacking, the next our defense is great and our attacking is lacking, for example in the last match against the Roosters all we did was one out stuff, nothing exciting that mighty really snatch the points, although throughout the year we had some great defense, especially against the Knights.

I think that if Browny can work on the teams defense, using a similar tactic to that of the Roosters where they all come in, attack the player and put him down, slow down the play the ball, it would be a great assett to the team. There also needs to be some individual sessions done with players who may be in first grade next year, for example Laloata, sometimes he dashes out of the line in an attempt to stop players but it leaves gashing holes for the attack to run into, this happened in the Knights game. Gorrell should definately be playing in first grade week in and week out, I do worry sometimes when they bring in youngsters like Howell who didn't really shine, but I guess the experience will make him better for it. Hopefully he'll get better soon after that sickening head clash against Wests.

I've got a feeling will use alot of Fleg and 1st div players during the year, he has huge raps on players like Joel Attenborough and Wes Naqaima so hopefully we'll see those stars sometime during next season.

Also, I think at the beginning of the year we should pick a halfback and stick to him, whether it be Head, Byrne, Firman or Kerr they should just stick to the player. Slightly like what they did with the Bulldogs, they gave Shirwin time and he provided the goods. That's what should be done here.

Bah, I wish I had cable, then I could go through the NRL Video Gallery and kind of tally up what we really need to do to improve, but from the matches I've seen, all I can say is stay focussed, don't drop off in the last 10mins and play smart defensive and attacking football. Easier said than done though.

Also, would Tricky Trindall be an option for next year?

 

[Willow]

Tricky should change his nickname to Trouble.

I agree with you though, if Brown decides on a halfback then we should stick to it. In all fairness to Farrar, we did a few injury problems with halfbacks... that always stuffs up any game plans.

I was thinking how many players we have who could realistically play half back in first grade:
Dean Byrne
Keiran Kerr
Andrew Head
Ben Hornby
Brett Firman
Aaron Gorrell
Trent Barrett

IMO, thats why we don't have Willie anymore and why we don't need Tricky.

Incidentially, the list ofrealistic five eighths isnt nearly as long with names like Damien Bower, Barrett and Hornby.
Maybe I've left someone out.

btw, in regards to your thoughts on Fleggs and seconds being used next year, I understand that Browny holds Ashton Sims in very high regard. I've never seen him play but apparently, he's a big young bloke and is pretty scary when on the burst.

 

[imported_SaintFirman]

Hey Willow,

On the Ashton Sims thing, I think I've seen him play in the Nutrigrain cup, also I'm not sure if I'm correct in saying this but most halfbacks can play at 5/8 as they're pretty similar positions where the main function is ball distribution and a good kicking game, as we saw with Hornby throughout the year who played both 5/8 and halfback, not sure if that's a good example because he is a utility player, but I guess it's true.

I think Gorrell's a good prospect at halfback if he could get a bit fitter and play close to the form that he did against NZ, or maybe that was because he wasn't tightly marked, either way he's a great player. Bower can play at Lock if needed.

Anyways, back to this ARL demo! I can't find ARL 96 anywhere in the shops, so I decided to hit the net and found a demo, too bad I can only use Manly and Roosters though.

 

[imported_Gorilla]

G'day Willow, I like your team.
What's the thinking behind McBirde at lock ?
Maggie

 

[imported_Gorilla]

Willow, who was the 1/2 for 1st Divison on GF day, he showed a bit of go to the line and a reasoanb;e kicking game ?
I think Dean Byrne played 5/8 and went Ok, seemed to gowell in defense - missed the attack, but my aged eyes may have been 'clouding over'....
Goz

 

[Willow]

G'day Goz.
Buggered if I know mate. He seems like the best we have.
I wish I could see more of these guys playing in the lower grades. Listening to other people's accounts and watching them run around in one or two games six months apart isnt much to go on.
Anyway, he's a tall lanky bloke and I liked the way he hits the line. He seemed to put in some work in defence as well.
Anyone else in mind?

 

[Willow]

Goz, I 'answered' your first question in post # 10 before seeing post #11.
The halfback in First Division was Keiran Kerr, who imho, was okay at times but could have done more. (I reckon Andrew Head was better value in the Flegg side). The five eighth was Damien Bower who is the skipper of the seconds.
Dean Byrne didnt play... he'll be back next year.

 

[Willow]

btw locky... I assume you got hold of this from Eye On Saints:

<table bgcolor=#ffffff border=1 bordercolor=#d9d9d9 cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 width="100%"> <tbody> <tr> <td bgcolor=#ffffff width="100%">Robbie Simpson and Mark Mundine to join Dragons?
Posted on Friday, October 18 @ 15:53:05 PDT by paulmorabito</td></tr> <tr> <td bgcolor=#ffffff width="100%"> The St George Illawarra Dragons are strongly tipped to announce the signings of Robbie Simpson and Mark Mundine. Simpson has already spent some time with the Saints having made nineteen first grade appearances for St George and St George Illawarra between 1998 and 2000. He was released from the Dragons at the end of 2000 after being involved in a robbery and has spent the last two seasons at the Newtown Jets.
We haven't seen the best of Robbie Simpson. A no nonsense forward of some potential, he has struggled to take the next step and cement himself a position in a club's top twenty five. His signing is somewhat controversial though it is worth remembering he played his best football in the Red Vee.
Mundine on the other hand is a tall and rangy forward who is said to posess considerable talent. He the cousin of revered former Saint Anthony Mundine and it's believed that his close friendship with incoming coach Nathan Brown has opened the door for both Mark and Robbie Simpson.
Both players will start from the bottom in 2003. They will be members of the part time Premier League squad and will cost the club match payments only. </td></tr></tbody></table>

Simpson was indeed on the wrong side of the law in 2000, along with Wes Patten.

This from SOTV archives 2000:

20 Dec 2000:
Former Dragon players and cousins, Wes Patten and Robbie Simpson were arrested outside Simeon's cafe, Botany early this morning. They were charged with aggravated break and enter along with 2 other men, Lindsay Munro and Wayne Carr. The four men were allegedly caught stealing a Wurlitzer vending machine. Patten, 26 was also charged with supplying the illegal drug, ecstasy while Simpson, 25 was also charged with driving while disqualified. Magistrate Brian Moloney noted that he was aware of Patten's criminal history and said that Patten "...shows a lack of respect" before granting each man $2000 bail to be lodged by an "acceptable person".
Munro, who the Magistrate had earlier described as "a crime waiting to happen" was the only man able to raise bail.
Patten, Simpson and Carr were all taken to Silverwater Jail where they will remain over Xmas and into the New Year, the matter being adjourned until 9th January.
Wes Patten and Robbie Simpson both played 1st grade for the Dragons in 2000.
Followers of the Patten saga may recall a news documentary on the ABC where Wes Patten was recorded by TV cameras being arrested. The charges were later dropped. The Police were recorded using racist remarks and Patten was eventually successful in litigation against the Police and the ABC.

 

[imported_SaintFirman]

Heya Willow,

Yep you're correct I saw that on Eye on Saints, I wasn't aware of his background though, also were you aware that Reece Simmonds has played at halfback in the past? Although I doubt his prospects at fullback, heh.

I heard Dean Byrne really cut up Brothers Valley and got injured soon after, also I heard that Reece Simmonds came back after injury, do you know why they weren't rushed back to first grade, Simmonds atleast, as they might have made some difference?

I haven't seen Mark Mundine play although I heard he's currently with the souths, do you have any raps on him??

 

[pepe]

did anyone mention there lack ofheart/soul.

peter frilingos

 

[Willow]

Did you know that Wes Patten was TV star as well? He was one of the main actors in an ABC drama series called 'Heartland' which also starred Ernie Dingo and none other than Cate Blanchett... great stuff if you love trivia.

No, I know nothing about Mark Mundine other than what Paul at TEOS has to say.

I saw that match against Brothers Valleys and you're right, Dean Byrne was very impressive. Don't know why he or Simmonds were'nt put back into the Firsts. Match fitness would be a guess.

 

[imported_Noodles]

Hi Locky

Welcome to LWOS. It's good to get another Dragons fan on board.

I reckon we'll have a great season next year. The biggest problem with our club this year was our mental attitude to most games (my opinion of course). We have enough talent in the club, and at times throughout the year proved that - the game vs Newcastle at SFS is a great example.

A new coach should change the way we prepare mentally for games - hopefully for the better. Games at Kogarah next year should give us some more wins too.

Our other main problem is getting a half back that can create space for Barrett to run the ball - the way that Andrew Johns did for him at rep level.. Willie Peter's passing game was f@*%ing awful, hopefully one of the young guys can fill this position.

Time will tell, but I am optimistic about our chances for next year.

 

[imported_SaintFirman]

G'day Noodles,

Thanks for the welcome, and there's no other team in the NRL I would rather go for than the dragons.

I think it also may have a fair bit to do with match fitness, I know this may sound odd, but seeing we're usually buggered in the last 10 of each half, fitness is the only thing I can think of that may be causing us to nod off in the last 10, and I think the sides that are mentally and physically strong can survive in that last 10 and not nod off by both giving it their all mentally but at the same time having the juice to go for that long. : - )

Also I think that sometimes we take the wrong choice with penalties and last tackle options, like the game against the sharks, on the last tackle of the first half we elect to run the ball resulting in a try to scum... and also near the end of that half we took a tap instead a shot at goal when the scores were very close, no idea what's going on there. Maybe we need cooler heads, or as I said before, a captain that doesn't care about what the players advice is, but the right advice, I think sometimes Barrett may become intimidated by others, something Craig Smith wasn't when he was playing for us. Btw, have any of you guys seen Barto and Smith overseas? They're going great guns and if Barto wanted to come back I think we should let him with arms wide open to maybe play a similar role to Millard who interchanges with Riddell if Riddell doesn't get fit enough to stay on the 80.
Btw, if anyone has ARL 96 for PC, give me a hollar. My skin is itching for the game.

 

[imported_SaintFirman]

Hey Willow,

heh, no I didn't know we had another celebrity in the Saints camp, I thought we left that to
"The Man"