Saints spine

[Frank Facer]

I’m not sure that as he is long term injured possibly career finishing that you don’t get salary cap relief

I was meaning that we should have released Widdop before the season started, when he was still fit to play.

 

[True_Believer]

If we would have released Widdop before the season started, why wouldn't he not be included in this year's salary cap?

If he had've come to the club and said I want out immediately, then fine - I can see grounds for not having a payout. However he has come to the club to renegotiate his duration to only 1 remaining year and not 2. So if the club said no - we don't want you from here on in (with no means for dismissal) then he would have been entitled to a payout assuming contract conditions allow for it.

There is no way we would have been able to cancel the contract without either full remuneration this year or at least a very large chunk of it.

Think about how it works when players swap clubs. A club wants to offload a player within his contract. Every time, the players old club has to pay a portion of the players salary - at least for the first year. And it's often a large chunk of it - seems to be standard clauses in the contracts to protect the players in this respect. So what happens when said player isn't moving to another club? Full salary compensated?

 

[possm]

Really rotten luck for Widdop. He’s been nowhere near his best & looked like he was still working his way back. His season is effectively over.

For FB, I will be glad to see Dufty back at there. In the first 2 rounds, even tonight, his speed would have been welcomed.
Sure, he’s got work to do on his defence but I’d say that applies to the whole team.
I’d like to see Lomax come in on the wing in place of Rava.

Lomax's reputation would go down the tube if you put him on the wing outside Aitken. We just need to bite the bullet and put Aitken on the bench in place of Dufty - Mary does not seem interested in putting Robson on the bench and so I doubt he will get a run in first grade unless McInnes is injured.

You are correct about the right wing problems needing to be addressed. This all relates to the Club replacing Nightingale and Macdonald with cheap newbies. So, it is time to try the next candidate in Pearson.

 

[possm]

If he had've come to the club and said I want out immediately, then fine - I can see grounds for not having a payout. However he has come to the club to renegotiate his duration to only 1 remaining year and not 2. So if the club said no - we don't want you from here on in (with no means for dismissal) then he would have been entitled to a payout assuming contract conditions allow for it.

There is no way we would have been able to cancel the contract without either full remuneration this year or at least a very large chunk of it.

Think about how it works when players swap clubs. A club wants to offload a player within his contract. Every time, the players old club has to pay a portion of the players salary - at least for the first year. And it's often a large chunk of it - seems to be standard clauses in the contracts to protect the players in this respect. So what happens when said player isn't moving to another club? Full salary compensated?

I agree with you. To me I'd say that Millward wanted to accommodate an immediate release but was told by Mary that he wants Widdop to stay for 2019 mainly because Norman is an unknown quantity and so we would have insurance in the halves if Widdop stays for 2019.

Mary's contract is due for extension thus giving him the desire to hold onto Widdop.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Feel for Widdop, he was playing his best game so far this season, however, to me this was always on the cards and why we had Dufty on the bench.
Gareth has most probably played his last game for us and at least he went out a winner.

As far as "salary relief" we can apply to receive compensation under the "Hodgson" rule.

McGregor states that he will have a reserve back on the bench so our spine will be:
1. Dufty
6. Norman
7. Hunt
9. McInnes
14. Lomax

Goal kicking will become an issue I feel. Lafai has a dodgy hammy and that was evident in his game last night. Norman maybe? The obvious answer is Lomax and he would have to play wing in place of Ravalawa. If this is the case then Field would come onto the bench as the back reserve.

 

[LINESPEED]

Feel for Widdop, he was playing his best game so far this season, however, to me this was always on the cards and why we had Dufty on the bench.
Gareth has most probably played his last game for us and at least he went out a winner.

As far as "salary relief" we can apply to receive compensation under the "Hodgson" rule.

McGregor states that he will have a reserve back on the bench so our spine will be:
1. Dufty
6. Norman
7. Hunt
9. McInnes
14. Lomax

Goal kicking will become an issue I feel. Lafai has a dodgy hammy and that was evident in his game last night. Norman maybe? The obvious answer is Lomax and he would have to play wing in place of Ravalawa. If this is the case then Field would come onto the bench as the back reserve.

We’ll eventually get the team most of us want through natural attrition - and when Robson, Kerr & Field join Dufty & Lomax in the 17 we’ll all relax & enjoy the spectacle it will be.

Chaff from the oats as my grandfather used to say

Waterboy has blinked

Eyes wide open soon?

 

[Life's Good]

Lomax's reputation would go down the tube if you put him on the wing outside Aitken. We just need to bite the bullet and put Aitken on the bench in place of Dufty - Mary does not seem interested in putting Robson on the bench and so I doubt he will get a run in first grade unless McInnes is injured.

You are correct about the right wing problems needing to be addressed. This all relates to the Club replacing Nightingale and Macdonald with cheap newbies. So, it is time to try the next candidate in Pearson.

I’m not sure about that. Last night, Aitken created opportunities but Ravalawa wasn’t ready for them because he was holding back.
Lomax is a completely different prospect so I’d be confident he wouldn’t be found wanting on the wing.
Separately, I agree that Pearson is worth a shot(assuming it isn’t Lomax).

 

[Frank Facer]

If he had've come to the club and said I want out immediately, then fine - I can see grounds for not having a payout. However he has come to the club to renegotiate his duration to only 1 remaining year and not 2. So if the club said no - we don't want you from here on in (with no means for dismissal) then he would have been entitled to a payout assuming contract conditions allow for it.

There is no way we would have been able to cancel the contract without either full remuneration this year or at least a very large chunk of it.

Think about how it works when players swap clubs. A club wants to offload a player within his contract. Every time, the players old club has to pay a portion of the players salary - at least for the first year. And it's often a large chunk of it - seems to be standard clauses in the contracts to protect the players in this respect. So what happens when said player isn't moving to another club? Full salary compensated?

If I was our CEO or Millward, I would have told Widdop that if Warrington wanted him this year and were prepared to pay his salary, then he was free to go. The question would have been if Warrington could afford Widdop this year. If so, then he would have been off our books and we would have had an extra 900K to spend this year.

 

[True_Believer]

If I was our CEO or Millward, I would have told Widdop that if Warrington wanted him this year and were prepared to pay his salary, then he was free to go. The question would have been if Warrington could afford Widdop this year. If so, then he would have been off our books and we would have had an extra 900K to spend this year.

Correct - however, Warrington didn't want him this year and he renegotiated with us for this year and signed with Warrington for 2020. So given that, there is no way we could have had the funds this year.

So you can't then say we should have offloaded him this year as the scenario didn't play out that way.

 

[Dragons 09]

Lomax's reputation would go down the tube if you put him on the wing outside Aitken. We just need to bite the bullet and put Aitken on the bench in place of Dufty - Mary does not seem interested in putting Robson on the bench and so I doubt he will get a run in first grade unless McInnes is injured.

You are correct about the right wing problems needing to be addressed. This all relates to the Club replacing Nightingale and Macdonald with cheap newbies. So, it is time to try the next candidate in Pearson.

I’m not sure about that. Last night, Aitken created opportunities but Ravalawa wasn’t ready for them because he was holding back.
Lomax is a completely different prospect so I’d be confident he wouldn’t be found wanting on the wing.
Separately, I agree that Pearson is worth a shot(assuming it isn’t Lomax).

Who'd be a coach huh? It really would be a prick of a job!

I have always been critical of Aitkens defence and I'm no McGregor fan boy, but under the circumstances of the last 3 weeks, i wouldn't have moved or replaced Aitken nor would i be over the next couple of weeks at least.

With no de Belin, Sims or Frizell, this meant that some of our younger and inexperienced players were required to play longer minutes to cover these outs. Add to that, 1 winger with only a couple of games under his belt and a rookie winger on the other side, and we were severally exposed when we faced game pressure. When you go through those periods in a game when you are under fatigue and nothing is going your way, experience is everything and Aitken certainly has that experience now. To replace him with Lomax then or now, in my opinion would be the wrong thing to do at this particular time and under our current circumstances.

Yes, potentially he could take Rav's spot on the wing and let Rav go back to reggies and hone his skills, but until Friz comes back and Korbin gets a bit more game time under his belt (and the likes of Lawrie, Host and Leilua get a bit more match fitness), i wouldn't be throwing a 5th year first grader out of the side and replacing him with someone who has only played 3 or 4 games. Similarly, I can sort of understand Dufty (more experience) on the bench and Robson missing out over the last couple of weeks and until we get all our experience back on deck and match fit. Latimore also fits in this category, he cops a bit of a pasting on here at times, but his experience in moments of game pressure can't be understated, personally i think he has been very dependable so far this year.

I think the best Lomax can hope for is a bench spot over the next couple of weeks and perhaps being injected earlyish if Rav has any more shockers. (Personally, i think Lomax is the clubs best fullback, but that is a discussion for another place and time)

 

[Como Connection]

Latimore goes just fine.
CC

 

[Frank Facer]

Correct - however, Warrington didn't want him this year and he renegotiated with us for this year and signed with Warrington for 2020. So given that, there is no way we could have had the funds this year.

So you can't then say we should have offloaded him this year as the scenario didn't play out that way.

How do you know that Warrington didn't want him this year? Was is a case of we wouldn't release him for this year and that the reason he didn't sign to play for them this year?

 

[possm]

Feel for Widdop, he was playing his best game so far this season, however, to me this was always on the cards and why we had Dufty on the bench.
Gareth has most probably played his last game for us and at least he went out a winner.

As far as "salary relief" we can apply to receive compensation under the "Hodgson" rule.

McGregor states that he will have a reserve back on the bench so our spine will be:
1. Dufty
6. Norman
7. Hunt
9. McInnes
14. Lomax

Goal kicking will become an issue I feel. Lafai has a dodgy hammy and that was evident in his game last night. Norman maybe? The obvious answer is Lomax and he would have to play wing in place of Ravalawa. If this is the case then Field would come onto the bench as the back reserve.

Lomax did not get much of a chance to show his fullback skills last night however, he did show he could take the high bomb under pressure without a problem. So OK, for now Dufty at fullback, Aitken at right centre, maybe Pearson given a chance on the right wing and Lomax on the bench. Hopefully in time we will see Lomax in the run on side and Robson on the bench in the hooker rotation.

 

[True_Believer]

How do you know that Warrington didn't want him this year? Was is a case of we wouldn't release him for this year and that the reason he didn't sign to play for them this year?

I've already been down this path when the news broke. I'm not going there again.

 

[Frank Facer]

I've already been down this path when the news broke. I'm not going there again.

Did we say to Widdop that if he could secure a contract in ESL this year, that we would let him go? Not to my knowledge?

 

[True_Believer]

Did we say to Widdop that if he could secure a contract in ESL this year, that we would let him go? Not to my knowledge?

Believe what you want to.

 

[SnowDragon]

I’ll continue with my long held opinion that Aitken is a good player, just not a centre. Having a strong running game and speed are qualities you want with your wingers.
Conversely a poor skill set in the reading and/or passing game is not so important if you are out on the wing.

What I’d like to see ( but of course it won’t happen) is Dufty to fullback and Lomax in the centres.

What will happen (forced due to injury) is Dufty to fullback to replace Widdop). Unfortunately Lomax will waste way on the bench.

Nice comments.

I am a Aitken fan, but comments about his weaknesses in defensive positions and seeming unpreparedness to pass are also fair. I suggested the wing earlier as his attacking instincts seems to suggest the position, and he has the ability return the ball well etc. Others stated he isn’t good enough under the high ball and getting back into position... I have no idea on this... but the idea remains.

That said... huge press on the forums earlier re Mika... now people are on his back. The guy is new and will only get better, and needs to develop unless there is somebody pushing for the position. I loved Lomax last season, but his early form suggested he isn’t a winger...

Lafai can kick, let him. Norman is a fallback also. Lomax may need to play off the bench for now.

 

[ALSGI]

Nice comments.

I am a Aitken fan, but comments about his weaknesses in defensive positions and seeming unpreparedness to pass are also fair. I suggested the wing earlier as his attacking instincts seems to suggest the position, and he has the ability return the ball well etc. Others stated he isn’t good enough under the high ball and getting back into position... I have no idea on this... but the idea remains.

That said... huge press on the forums earlier re Mika... now people are on his back. The guy is new and will only get better, and needs to develop unless there is somebody pushing for the position. I loved Lomax last season, but his early form suggested he isn’t a winger...

Lafai can kick, let him. Norman is a fallback also. Lomax may need to play off the bench for now.

Agree, I’m also an Aitken fan despite his deficiencies. He played well on Thursday night and won’t be dropped on those sort of performances. Also agree that Mika will only improve as will the undertanding with Aitken.

Nene had a couple tries scored on his wing last week against the Broncs and looked shit before coming of after 37mins.

Geez I reckon we’re going miss Widdop. It sounds like the playing group will too. We have other kicking options. We’ll have a more settled spine. Here’s a golden opportunity for Dufty to show if he’s improved. I’m looking forward having his attack available for 80mins.

 

[possm]

Nice comments.

I am a Aitken fan, but comments about his weaknesses in defensive positions and seeming unpreparedness to pass are also fair. I suggested the wing earlier as his attacking instincts seems to suggest the position, and he has the ability return the ball well etc. Others stated he isn’t good enough under the high ball and getting back into position... I have no idea on this... but the idea remains.

That said... huge press on the forums earlier re Mika... now people are on his back. The guy is new and will only get better, and needs to develop unless there is somebody pushing for the position. I loved Lomax last season, but his early form suggested he isn’t a winger...

Lafai can kick, let him. Norman is a fallback also. Lomax may need to play off the bench for now.

The problem is not with the players it is with the coaching staff. Mary and his staff had all off-season to monitor our new recruits to judge whether they are first grade suitable or not. In the case of Aitken, the coaching staff have had plenty of opportunity to either assist him with his problems or move him to another position (backrow) or off-load him. It appears that very little has been done.

Aitken is a good strong runner but not a good centre. Lomax is a good young centre/fullback wanting to make his way and secure a first grade spot, he is not a winger and never would be able to gain recognition playing outside Aitken. Aitken is not a centre or a winger because he falls short taking the high ball, turning to chase a kick, making wrong reads in defence and not being able to setup or position his winger with a good pass.

Mika is seems to have good potential as a first grade winger, the problem is that he is not their yet and we need a first grade ready winger to replace Nightingale. We already had Pereira on the books so it seems we had plenty of salary cap from the retirement of Nightingale and the release of Macdonald to recruit at least one really good and proven first grade winger. We did not do that and one wonders why?

To me Mika needs more time in CC to become first grade ready and so we should be testing our other bargin basement recruits to see if they can do a better job. That is why I am calling for Lomax at centre and Pearson on the right wing. Rather than put up with what we can see is wrong, why not try and find what is right?

Having Lomax at right centre we also have a sharp shooting goal kicker, something very necessary today in a first grade side and something Widdop really did well. In addition with Host / K Sims playing backrow on the right edge, I believe our leaky defence problem will be solved. In addition, if Dufty finds himself having trouble at the back, Lomax could very easily move to fullback. I see Lomax as our long term fullback.

 

[New Dragon]

Whatever we think about Norman and dragons staff if they hadn’t brought him in early we would be kissing the premiership goodbye after Widdops injury on Thursday night.