Saints 'Strapped for cash'

[Slackboy72]

Considering none of us are privy to the day-to-day management of either the licensed club or the joint-venture operations I find it odd that so many are always jumping on Doust and claiming he is doing a bad job. Yes we have lost players, yes we have failed to bring home the main prize but what would you have done differently given the circumstances he has faced?

 

[Macarthur Saints]

Considering none of us are privy to the day-to-day management of either the licensed club or the joint-venture operations I find it odd that so many are always jumping on Doust and claiming he is doing a bad job. Yes we have lost players, yes we have failed to bring home the main prize but what would you have done differently given the circumstances he has faced?

Faced with so many rookies playing in the team last year i fail to see any other way of dealing with last year..

Appart from a investigation into why our guys always get hurt..

 

[Wicks]

Pfft! Semantics.

The club doesn't always tell it as it is. That's the point.

I agree about the Kogarah concrete cancer story But why would someone question what I wrote That is what I was inquiring about

Our club signaled that they wanted the two team system and the national competition years ago before the major changes to governing leagues clubs and money issues Peter Doust is on the NRL development committee and along with Parramatta and the Tigers the club led the push for the competition They also brought in players from all over NSW and Queensland for the competition in addition to the usual St George and south coast players

Reading the paragraph again it is not what the club tells me as a fan it is our club interacting with other clubs like was said in the nyc forum

That makes the responses more puzzling :? I am interested in someone else who might have had other information not semantics not politics

I seem to always get these responses instead of further discussion

 

[Willow]

I seem to always get these responses

Relax Wicksy. I can't speak for everyone, but deep down I think you're one cool dude.

 

[Drew-Sta]

Considering none of us are privy to the day-to-day management of either the licensed club or the joint-venture operations I find it odd that so many are always jumping on Doust and claiming he is doing a bad job. Yes we have lost players, yes we have failed to bring home the main prize but what would you have done differently given the circumstances he has faced?

Where did you want me to start? And how far back? I'll stick with the JV this time:

* Let David Waite go, allowing one of the most incompetent coached I've ever seen lay claim to the privelage of coaching Saints.
* Rushed a very, very green coach into first grade in 2003 before he, or for that matter the club, was ready for such a change or inexperience.
* Removing ourselves from Kogarah. Twice.
* Allowing the WIN TV corporation to purchase one quarter of our club without consulting the members at any time.
* Allowing MacGregor anywhere near our players for any medical or fitness reason. Period.
* Signing players such as Quinten Pongia, Nathan Long, Colin Best, Hassan Saleh, Solomon Haumono and Simon Woolford whilst allowing good depth 1st graders such as Matt Bickerstaff, Lincoln Withers, Clint Greenshields, Aaron Gorrell, George N'Daira, Ashton Simms, Luke Bailey (Although he was never going to stay), Michael Henderson, Craig Stapelton and the rest go. Although people will argue hindsight is 20-20, I say that a club focussed on football should have no excuses for letting talent go like we have.
* Allowing our Leagues Club to fall into the pitiful financial sink it has become.
* Doing abso-f**king-lutely nothing to reform the Illawarra Leagues club so it stops leaking the hundreds of thousands it is currently doing a year.
* Allowing clubs like the Roosters to buy junior clubs in our own backyard.
* Allowing that disgusting red rag of a jersey onto a footy field bearing the name 'St George'.
* Taking the money and running with the Homebush deal. Including the debacle that is the ANZAC Day clash being moved.
* Blackmailing its own fans by stating that unless they purchase season tickets to Homebush, they'll lose their own seats when (Or should I say 'if') we return to Kogarah.

Your question was 'What more could the have done?' My answer is - A whole f**king lot more, that's for sure.

 

[Wicks]

Relax Wicksy. I can't speak for everyone, but deep down I think you're one cool dude.

Yet you still focus on what doesnt matter and not look at what was written

* Signing players such as Quinten Pongia, Nathan Long, Colin Best, Hassan Saleh, Solomon Haumono and Simon Woolford whilst allowing good depth 1st graders such as Matt Bickerstaff, Lincoln Withers, Clint Greenshields, Aaron Gorrell, George N'Daira, Ashton Simms, Luke Bailey (Although he was never going to stay), Michael Henderson, Craig Stapelton and the rest go. Although people will argue hindsight is 20-20, I say that a club focussed on football should have no excuses for letting talent go like we have.

You know there is a salary cap and that would be less them half a million signed versus in the vicinity of two million for the new contracts the players leaving signed I would also say Best was a good signing for 2005 with the Morris twins given more time

 

[Willow]

Yet you still focus on what doesnt matter and not look at what was written

And you're still miserable, but you don't see me holding that against you.

 

[Drew-Sta]

You know there is a salary cap and that would be less them half a million signed versus in the vicinity of two million for the new contracts the players leaving signed I would also say Best was a good signing for 2005 with the Morris twins given more time

You miss the point. Our turnover of players is ludicrous - We buy players when we could blood youngsters. We let solid players who have been juniors to go in favour of these 'bargain deals'. You miss my entire point and I'm not suggesting we breach the salary cap but our management of both the cap and our player roster is nothing short of pathetic.

E.G. Had we kept Aaron Gorell we would have had a 1st grade hooker in reserves when Woolford was injured.

 

[Godz Illa]

To keep Gorrell we would have had to cut someone else. Gorrell was never the answer at hooker anyway. I would've preferred to give chances to Woolford, Ellis or Caine than retain Gorrell.

 

[RedVDave]

To keep Gorrell we would have had to cut someone else. Gorrell was never the answer at hooker anyway. I would've preferred to give chances to Woolford, Ellis or Caine than retain Gorrell.

I would put both Gorrell & Ndaira ahead of Ellis & Caine! Chase is very good also! But from what I have seen having him at 5/8 is the best option for us

 

[Godz Illa]

Working under the salary cap I think Ellis and Caine were better value than Gorrell. And in my opinion Ndaira is behind all 3 of them - didn't see any first grade with the Roosters last year despite their lack of depth and was discarded by them this year with depth at an even lower ebb (Wing and L'estrange gone).
Forgot about Rangi Chase also, he's definitely in the mix this year.

 

[Wicks]

And you're still miserable, but you don't see me holding that against you.

Im fine but it bears out the red herring that you posted in order to sidetrack the discussion

You miss the point. Our turnover of players is ludicrous - We buy players when we could blood youngsters. We let solid players who have been juniors to go in favour of these 'bargain deals'. You miss my entire point and I'm not suggesting we breach the salary cap but our management of both the cap and our player roster is nothing short of pathetic.

E.G. Had we kept Aaron Gorell we would have had a 1st grade hooker in reserves when Woolford was injured.

I know what you are trying to say but it is wishful thinking in trying to prove a case against them

I hope that is not your best example Gorrell did not want to be anything but the number one hooker and no one in the NRL wanted him in that capacity or could get near the money offered to him from overseas Gorrell also ended up being out the whole year with a knee injury which is his second serious knee injury Woolford is a much better player than Gorrell even with his advancing age

On the others Haumono was during the JV shift from six million Pongia and Long were on play for pay contracts that didnt affect others Saleh was a backup used because of injuries Again minimal effect on other players These players fit in salary positions that others would not accept

Bickerstaff is a good one He came in cheap and played well became too expensive to sign up again and ended up a bust for Canberra Thats four points the club highlighted which all worked out

The youngsters you talk about are blooded but they can they go out of our price range quickly because of the cap and demand from other clubs and overseas Likewise with the solid players especially with the english competition holding between 70 and 100 players in the last six years That in turn puts more pressure on any young players we produce to take offers double and triple what we can offer and they are usually offered starting positions when we can only give them backup roles or the bench at best

Any other more direct comparisons ;-)

 

[Willow]

Im fine but it bears out the red herring that you posted in order to sidetrack the discussion

Good onya wicksy... there's hope for you yet. ;-)

 

[Dave Q]

If I was a Saints fan I'd be very worried about the financial side of things.

Cuts from the leagues club mean the club has to struggle.

The NSW government is slicing up the clubs financial throat.

One would think that the NRL and news would have joined with the clubs and sought a special dispensation for the NRL leagues clubs with regards to the pokies tax because the leagues clubs have special obligations that other clubs dont share including the provision of sporting enjoyment to millions of fans, employment, charities etc.

At the end of the day, government is about redistributing income and resources from some people to others and its seems that the NRL clubs have lucked out.

So the challenge for Saints is to find new revenue streams. Thats difficult with rising interest rates, a bear stock market, skyrocketing fuel prices, a depressed property market and consumer confidence drying up.

In these unsettled financial times, the road home to Kogarah is going to be long and drawn out.

The club needs to examine how other clubs are making money and try to replicate their programs. It needs to employ good people who know how these things work.

A lot of people knock Shane Richardson, but through his contacts and efforts he's brought millions of dollars into clubs that he has worked with. Hes an example anyway.

For the immediate future, its been said but Saints have a pretty fair side without injuries and it is to be hoped that you will not need to call on so many rookies. The good news is that players like Nightingale, Stanley and to a lessor extent, Soward have been unearthed and will have even better 2008's.

Brown didnt have everyone he wanted last year, criticism should be tempered by this stark realisation.

The impact of Soward and Gaz was especially telling later in the year and the outlook is better than "poor"

 

[Southernsaint]

If I was a Saints fan I'd be very worried about the financial side of things.

Cuts from the leagues club mean the club has to struggle.

The NSW government is slicing up the clubs financial throat.

One would think that the NRL and news would have joined with the clubs and sought a special dispensation for the NRL leagues clubs with regards to the pokies tax because the leagues clubs have special obligations that other clubs dont share including the provision of sporting enjoyment to millions of fans, employment, charities etc.

At the end of the day, government is about redistributing income and resources from some people to others and its seems that the NRL clubs have lucked out.

So the challenge for Saints is to find new revenue streams. Thats difficult with rising interest rates, a bear stock market, skyrocketing fuel prices, a depressed property market and consumer confidence drying up.

In these unsettled financial times, the road home to Kogarah is going to be long and drawn out.

The club needs to examine how other clubs are making money and try to replicate their programs. It needs to employ good people who know how these things work.

A lot of people knock Shane Richardson, but through his contacts and efforts he's brought millions of dollars into clubs that he has worked with. Hes an example anyway.

For the immediate future, its been said but Saints have a pretty fair side without injuries and it is to be hoped that you will not need to call on so many rookies. The good news is that players like Nightingale, Stanley and to a lessor extent, Soward have been unearthed and will have even better 2008's.

Brown didnt have everyone he wanted last year, criticism should be tempered by this stark realisation.

The impact of Soward and Gaz was especially telling later in the year and the outlook is better than "poor"

What are some examples of Richardson's fine work?? Other than this Crowe-Holmes a Court false economy that Souths seem to live in, I don't see them doing too much different to the other clubs in the League financially.

 

[Drew-Sta]

Im fine but it bears out the red herring that you posted in order to sidetrack the discussion



I know what you are trying to say but it is wishful thinking in trying to prove a case against them

I hope that is not your best example Gorrell did not want to be anything but the number one hooker and no one in the NRL wanted him in that capacity or could get near the money offered to him from overseas Gorrell also ended up being out the whole year with a knee injury which is his second serious knee injury Woolford is a much better player than Gorrell even with his advancing age

On the others Haumono was during the JV shift from six million Pongia and Long were on play for pay contracts that didnt affect others Saleh was a backup used because of injuries Again minimal effect on other players These players fit in salary positions that others would not accept

Bickerstaff is a good one He came in cheap and played well became too expensive to sign up again and ended up a bust for Canberra Thats four points the club highlighted which all worked out

The youngsters you talk about are blooded but they can they go out of our price range quickly because of the cap and demand from other clubs and overseas Likewise with the solid players especially with the english competition holding between 70 and 100 players in the last six years That in turn puts more pressure on any young players we produce to take offers double and triple what we can offer and they are usually offered starting positions when we can only give them backup roles or the bench at best

Any other more direct comparisons ;-)

'

You're missing my point.

Why sign players like Pongia, Saleh and Long when you can blood a younger player with an experienced squad around him?

Why not pay the extra 50k for a player like Bickerstaff who was giving good service in the squad and added extra experience?

Why did we sign Haumono in the first place?!

Gorrell had been around for years, and was a goal-kicking hooker with good distribution - I believe he was worth keeping. Why didn't we keep a player who had stuck with us for several years? Why didn't we give him a better shot at the no1 hooking position instead of interchanging him?

Our management of players has seen us shed players a year or two early for a few years now. Now, we're left with an inexperienced squad who will have quicker (and less sustainable) price hikes. We'll end up shedding some quality first graders in their early to mid 20's, and be right back at square one with a lack of depth and the requirement to blood juniors before their time.

You follow?

 

[Dave Q]

What are some examples of Richardson's fine work?? Other than this Crowe-Holmes a Court false economy that Souths seem to live in, I don't see them doing too much different to the other clubs in the League financially.

Richo bought "Firepower" on board and a host of other lessor sponsers. He helped secure Virgin blue. Jersey funding is now worth twice what is was.

Theres nothing falsely economic about the massive injection of funds, increased memberships, marquee players, bigger crowds, creation of an international prescence, more of, better and more profitable merchandising etc.

And Souths dont have financial problems or have to worry about grants from a leagues club.

They are doing well.

 

[Wicks]

'

You're missing my point.

Why sign players like Pongia, Saleh and Long when you can blood a younger player with an experienced squad around him?

Why not pay the extra 50k for a player like Bickerstaff who was giving good service in the squad and added extra experience?

Why did we sign Haumono in the first place?!

Gorrell had been around for years, and was a goal-kicking hooker with good distribution - I believe he was worth keeping. Why didn't we keep a player who had stuck with us for several years? Why didn't we give him a better shot at the no1 hooking position instead of interchanging him?

Our management of players has seen us shed players a year or two early for a few years now. Now, we're left with an inexperienced squad who will have quicker (and less sustainable) price hikes. We'll end up shedding some quality first graders in their early to mid 20's, and be right back at square one with a lack of depth and the requirement to blood juniors before their time.

You follow?

Im not missing anything

Those players were extras that the salary cap allows and they didnt stand in the way of anyone Who did they stand in the way of You would name them if you could They are signed because we have the ability under the system in place and likely as other players need time to develop

The club probably thought Bickerstaff was busted and he was You still want to give him an extra fifty thousand knowing that he barely played

Youd have to ask Waite about Haumono but as said it would be lost in the mix with reducing down from six million

Gorrell went for the money rather than the stable footballing situation In defence he gave up too much ground in the middle of the field to start him regularly

Do you follow the salary cap and how every team goes through the same process when you look at a sequence of years The difference in numbers is that we produce more players capable of first grade than anyone

Again if you can come up with some credible one for one examples provide them

 

[Drew-Sta]

Im not missing anything

Those players were extras that the salary cap allows and they didnt stand in the way of anyone Who did they stand in the way of You would name them if you could They are signed because we have the ability under the system in place and likely as other players need time to develop

If we have ability under the system to sign these players, why not spread it amongst one or two juniors and give them a crack at 1st grade?

The club probably thought Bickerstaff was busted and he was You still want to give him an extra fifty thousand knowing that he barely played

He wasn't busted when he was playing with us and had we persisted with him there's no guarantee he'd have come across the scenario where he was injured. It might have been an issue with the Canberra training regime?!

Youd have to ask Waite about Haumono but as said it would be lost in the mix with reducing down from six million

What would be lost? We spent money on a player who ended up giving us nothing. That's what we lost! Don't give me this rubbish that just cause the cap was 6 mil we could lose some of that to players who fell through the cracks!

Gorrell went for the money rather than the stable footballing situation In defence he gave up too much ground in the middle of the field to start him regularly

Gorrell was not weak defensively; He played a similar game to Withers but with less of a hard hit in defence. Plus he had a better kicking game than Withers. Gorrell also left because WE didn't resign him. His move to France was the result of him spending years in the lower grades with little opportunity, then not being resigned.

Do you follow the salary cap and how every team goes through the same process when you look at a sequence of years The difference in numbers is that we produce more players capable of first grade than anyone

f**k that, it's a cop out. Look at the players we've lost during the years and then take a hard long look at Brisbane, Parramatta, Penrith, NQ and even the Roosters who buy talent and warehouse it. We DON'T offer enough incentive for juniors because our infrastructure is shocking, and we ALWAYS leak players we later regret because we DON'T player manage in the right manner. FFS, the club went so far as to blame Craig Young for his player negotiations when I'd venture a guess that Doust and co are trying to cover up their own inefficiencies in the area. I watch teams like the Roosters, Souths, Brisbane and particularly Melbourne and they not only manage their cap effectively, they make us look like 3rd rate establishment.

Again if you can come up with some credible one for one examples provide them

What one for one examples are you talking about, hmm? How's about the loss of players over the years:

* Fitzgibbon (Under a cap you claimed was 6mil worth and we lost a player of this calibre)
* Bailey (Rumoured to have left for personal reasons, however)
* Thompson (Player management at its worst)
* Greenshields
* White
* Kite (We persisted with him for years before we recieved gain, and were screwed over by a huge bid from Manly)
* Stapelton
* Riddell (He went for money)
* Henderson
* Wicks
* Simms
* Houston
* Howell x 2 (Although they were pretty sh*t)
* Gorrell
* Bickerstaff
* Jensen (A player cut from Manly, picked up for nicks, played well and later left due to no extension in a time where injuries plagued our squad)
* Withers (No extension)
* Ennis
* Firman
* Head
* Williams (Loud mouth braggart that will get found out, however)
* Donnelly
* Wilshere
* Kativerata
* Naiqama
* Simmonds (There's a solid player who was punted. Did all he was asked of at winger and knew how to finish off a try)
* Branighan
* Holdsworth (Talented and people knew it - Had we held on to him for a year or two could you imagine a halves pairing of Holdsworth and Soward?! Or Holdsworth and Head?)
* Barrett (One of the primary reasons no doubt that we lost so many players - On waaaaaay to much for the return he gave us)
* Henderson (Another talented front rower we could have used this year)
* Leano (Although his knee's were apparently shot. I still thought he deserved a better shot than he got)
* N'daira

f**k it, i could go on longer but here are the players we've bought. The asterix next to the names are those I feel were worthy additions to the squad, especially at their expected price range:

* Best
* Pongia
* Long
* Ennis *
* Withers *
* Bickerstaff *
* Woolford
* Jensen *
* Scott **********
* Soward *
* Haumono
* Torrens

Can you see the problem here? For what we've shed, we're relying on our youth to plug the wholes. That's all well and good for us to rely on our juniors, but when you lose the talent we have and expect it to be replenished by new talent, it just doesn't happen. Juniors need time to be put into FG, and we're neither giving them that time, nor are we holding on to them down the track.

I would even suggest that they learn essential basics from old heads like Ryles, Poore, Young, Creagh etc, befor emoving on and getting the proper training from better coaching staffs.

 

[Wobbygong]

C'mon Dave Q, the mixos are slowly transitioning from being "the embarrassment of the league" which they've been for the last twenty years, into becomming mildly relevant. Unfortunately they'll miss the eight this year after a admirable effort in making eighth spot last season.

No doubt it's a challenge for all clubs to find alternate revenue streams, and I am sure they are all looking into becoming less reliant on leagues club funds (those that even had a viable leagues club to start with), but with consumer confidence still high, full employment and the market still not showing signs of slowing down there will be additional sponsorships out there. I hear the mixos might even get a three way sponsorship, they better hope they get somehting after the dodgy fuel pill company punted them. Mabye they could seek a sponsorship from Brocky's (god rest his soul) Polariser
device?????

However on the International presence ROTFLAO!!!!!! So the phone chucker throws out a few souths hats to some of his hollywood mates, wow wee!! I notice how regularly they attend matches and the recent "event" in the States what a waste of time and tax payers money, guarantee you go back to Florida in two months time and they'll say South who???? please......................................