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Salary cap its own worst enemy in sorry Inglis saga

Messages
242
Brilliant article too. We follow the cap religiously, and what good has it done. There is a team that's won 6 times in 20 years, there are teams that haven't won in decades or for their entire history. The AFL doesn't follow it's cap as religiously, they allow softening the cap every now and then when it's for the good of their game and has it killed their teams competitiveness? No. Collingwood before their current domination had years of suck, as is the case with most teams.

Carp, when was the last time Richmond, St Kilda, Melbourne or Western Bulldogs won a comp, how about 30 years, 44 years, 46 years and 56 years, how many times has Richmond even made the finals in the last 30 years, to suggest the AFL has an even competition is ridiculous and completely incorrect.

And for the Record…
Last premiership
Richmond (1980)
St Kilda (1966)
Melbourne (1964)
Western Bulldogs (1954)

Richmond have made the finals just 3 times since their last premiership, 1982, 1995 and 2001, Freemantle are yet to play in a Grand Final and Western Bulldogs have not played in a Grand Final since 1961.

Yet another BunniesBoy classic, and by the way Collingwood are not the dominant side, they won the 2010 competition but Geelong had been the clearly dominant side of the AFL for the previous few seasons, and Collingwoods years of suck, they made the finals in 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, how is that years of suck.

BunniesBoy = Absolutely no idea
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
 

lturner

Juniors
Messages
235
NBA has one but it is a "soft" cap full of exceptions/holes and it is just under 60% of revenue. NFL has had one (but might not for much longer) where the cap is approx 60% of the NFL's revenue. AFL is full of holes when it suits, and admissions were made earlier this year about how many 3rd party deals there are (and the lack of close scrutiny).

The common thread to all of those comps is they have no or little competition for their players from other comps/codes. English & French RU are starting to apply caps and are ending up with same difficulties/compaints found in RL.

.....

I'm sorry, but a hard and rigid cap is the most unoriginal idea any sport could burden itself with and expect to grow, and maybe survive.

Sorry, didn't intend to write that much!

Excellent post.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,700
Carp, when was the last time Richmond, St Kilda, Melbourne or Western Bulldogs won a comp, how about 30 years, 44 years, 46 years and 56 years, how many times has Richmond even made the finals in the last 30 years, to suggest the AFL has an even competition is ridiculous and completely incorrect.

And for the Record…
Last premiership
Richmond (1980)
St Kilda (1966)
Melbourne (1964)
Western Bulldogs (1954)

Richmond have made the finals just 3 times since their last premiership, 1982, 1995 and 2001, Freemantle are yet to play in a Grand Final and Western Bulldogs have not played in a Grand Final since 1961.

Yet another BunniesBoy classic, and by the way Collingwood are not the dominant side, they won the 2010 competition but Geelong had been the clearly dominant side of the AFL for the previous few seasons, and Collingwoods years of suck, they made the finals in 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, how is that years of suck.

BunniesBoy = Absolutely no idea
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
AFL isn't the point of this thread but oh well, I'll bite. Geelong's time is over. We're in Collingwood's era.

As for their competitiveness. Souths haven't won in 40 years. Sharks have never won in their 44 year history. If the Magpies and Bears were still here they'd be 60 and 90 years without a premiership. And then you have the broncos with 6 in 20 years.

Some of the AFL's premiership less streaks look bad simply because they have more foundation teams still going.

Point is, just like in the NRL, the AFL will have it's outliers, but generally speaking the competition is competitive. And they manage to have that while still bending the cap occasionally for the sake of the game. As we should.
 

Ziggy the God

First Grade
Messages
5,240
Did the club underwrite or even organise the deal?

Probably not because the NRL was the one that helped organise it.

News (half owner) and Nine (broadcaster) helped the club by keeping him in the game. I am not having a go here, but could you seriously argue that this is an arms length agreement?

In terms of GI, I am still waiting to hear Schubert's explanation as to how he concluded that the deals were done directly with our club, when that is not what each sponsor has said individually. Something is not right somewhere.

When teams like the Broncos have a reported $1m in 3PA's, I know for certain that we do not have anything like that now, and still wouldn't even if the GI deal did get over the line.
 

adamkungl

Immortal
Messages
42,955
Competitive is not the same as 'every team has won a comp recently'.

Again using Cronulla as an example, no one can say they haven't been competitive over the years. It simply hasn't clicked on the right day a few too many times for them.
 

RL1908

Bench
Messages
2,717
The best reason the reform the cap?

So we can all stop freakin' talking about it!

It's killing everyone's enjoyment of RL.

I didn't envisage when I became a RL fan having to learn about accountancy and corporate law.

Let's get back to JUST TALKING ABOUT THE FOOTBALL!!!

There! That's my Christmas Message 2010.

I wish you all, wherever you may be, a very happy Christmas.

Good day.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,782
I have no issue with them keeping him in the game, the last thing I wanted was for him to leave.

What I have an issue is the NRL aiding one club, by helping organise third party deals, whilst not offering the same to others.

You talk about a level playing field, but that helped your club, whilst everyone else got nada.

Here you go:

---------------------------------------------------------------
League's last bid to save Joey

News Ltd and Channel Nine have guaranteed Andrew Johns a career after football if he stays in rugby league - while attempts to construct a similar package in rugby union yesterday faltered......

NRL chief executive David Gallop and News Ltd chief executive John Hartigan yesterday met Fordham at the media empire's Surry Hills offices.


Channel Nine chief executive David Gyngell was unable to attend but briefed Hartigan on what the network could offer Johns. It is understood the components included:
  • Increased and guaranteed work as a commentator for up to 10 years, as well as a regular spot on The Footy Show and other possible lifestyle and variety programs;
  • A higher profile with News Ltd, expanding his current involvement as a columnist.
The NRL has already told the Knights it would approve a new third-party sponsorship arrangement worth $100,000 on top of the $500,000 a season the club is believed to have offered him.

Gallop hoped a media job package outlined today would act as a "sweetener" for Johns.

http://www.clubconnect.com.au/news4092.asp
---------------------------------------------------------------


So Johns and his manager played off the Waratah's against the NRL, and the NRL blinked, and got their media partners to underwrite him for 10 years.

So why not pick the best player at each club and do something similar?

Oh yeah, it is ok if it is done for the Knights.

ziggy, you normally seem like a fairly intelligent bloke, but can't believe your point there...

if you read the figures, john's salary is $600k... with $500k paid by the club thru the salary cap, and the 3PA is $100k, or 17% of his total income..

souffs want GI to be paid $600k, with $410k in 3PA... that's 68% of his income...

can you see why there is a massive difference?

it's not just because they are newcastle and not souths that the johns peice went thru...
 

skeepe

Immortal
Messages
47,382
The best reason the reform the cap?

So we can all stop freakin' talking about it!

It's killing everyone's enjoyment of RL.

It's not killing my enjoyment, not one little bit.

Guess I'm not part of that big "everyone" umbrella you're wielding.
 

Jono1987

Juniors
Messages
1,526
If the salary cap auditor wasn't looking into the motives of Melbourne's 3rd party sponsorships then they'd still have 2 premierships in the cupboard....

The reason why sponsors are quizzed is because clubs have a history of funneling secret cash to 3rd parties to pay their players. This is how the dogs and storm rorted the cap.

The NRL can't just take it at face value whenever a 3rd party wants to throw a truckload at a player. They need to investigate to ensure that first of all the cash is even going to be coming from them and 2nd that there isn't any agreement between 3rd party sponsor and club about the deal.

a 3rd party sponsor for example should not be given a corporate box to any of the teams home games, or have signage displayed in any way.

The absolute only problem with the salary cap right now is that it is too low. A new TV deal with fix that. No need to scrap the system prematurely now and make it open slather

Completely agree. Well said. First and foremost the base salary cap must be raised. To compliment that the 3rd party payments can be gradully increased. That's all 3rd party payments should amount too.

Of course none of this would be a problem if our players weren't asked to play a staggering amount of games for the money they earn. Reduce the number of games per season from 26 to 17 or 18 and therefore increasing payments per match. The difference would be thousands per match. Just another reason (along with the other million reasons) why greatly reducing our regular season should be one of the top priorities of the IC.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,700
Completely agree. Well said. First and foremost the base salary cap must be raised. To compliment that the 3rd party payments can be gradully increased. That's all 3rd party payments should amount too.

Of course none of this would be a problem if our players weren't asked to play a staggering amount of games for the money they earn. Reduce the number of games per season from 26 to 17 or 18 and therefore increasing payments per match. The difference would be thousands per match. Just another reason (along with the other million reasons) why greatly reducing our regular season should be one of the top priorities of the IC.
We reduce the season, we have even less money to pay them with than we do now.
 

RL1908

Bench
Messages
2,717
It's not killing my enjoyment, not one little bit.

Guess I'm not part of that big "everyone" umbrella you're wielding.

You're enjoying the ins and outs of the salary cap? Who gets what, who moves where, what the deal is made up of, what the rules and how they work, why the NRL says its ok or its not?? (Let alone the breaches and the negative coverage that gives the game). How much media space do you reckon the ongoing cap stories and debate sucks away from covering other parts of the game?
 

Ziggy the God

First Grade
Messages
5,240
ziggy, you normally seem like a fairly intelligent bloke, but can't believe your point there...

if you read the figures, john's salary is $600k... with $500k paid by the club thru the salary cap, and the 3PA is $100k, or 17% of his total income..

souffs want GI to be paid $600k, with $410k in 3PA... that's 68% of his income...

can you see why there is a massive difference?

it's not just because they are newcastle and not souths that the johns peice went thru...



You have to look at the deal across 3 years.

Going off what we have seen in the media (if my numbers are out, happy to be corrected):

Year 1: 190k
Year 2: 350k (backended)
Year 3: 350k (backended)

Plus:
Marquee Allowance: 100k pa = 300k
Car allowance = 25k?

All up = ~1.2m
Thus = ~400k pa
The 3PA's = 200k pa

So the 3PA's are 33% of his yearly income.


My point was not comparing the AJ deal directly with the GI deal in monetary terms, it was that the Knights had the aid of the NRL, whilst other clubs did not. Note that I was one of those that wanted him to be kept in our game.

Further, AJ had a deal to be paid for 10 years post his playing career, IF he stayed with the Knights. Work out the present value of that.
 

Ike E Bear

Juniors
Messages
1,998
Fewer games = few televised games = less revenue from television rights.

They do play an awful lot of games, but a reduction in revenue would have to be accompanied by a reduction in remuneration for players.

Getting a better deal for their television rights should be the priority, which then might allow for an affordable reduction of games.
 

big country

Juniors
Messages
1,319
Spot on.

BTW fancy a South supporter complaining about the salary cap. Without the salary cap Souths would have died 20 years ago.

F*ck me!!! - are you serious - we've paid our own way without handouts from Murdoch, etc - we've lived within our means and come last a few times as a result......now that we've turned the corner financially you throw the salary cap BS at us? Faaark me!!
 

skeepe

Immortal
Messages
47,382
You're enjoying the ins and outs of the salary cap? Who gets what, who moves where, what the deal is made up of, what the rules and how they work, why the NRL says its ok or its not?? (Let alone the breaches and the negative coverage that gives the game). How much media space do you reckon the ongoing cap stories and debate sucks away from covering other parts of the game?

Where did I say I was enjoying it?
 

Jono1987

Juniors
Messages
1,526
We reduce the season, we have even less money to pay them with than we do now.

There are numerous way around that. Such as;
# Reducing the number of games per year over a period of time. E.g reduce by two games a season over a four year period. It could be a longer period and probably the more realistic option
# Selling the TV rights in separate blocks.
# Money would be saved from not having to hire stadiums, staff, buses, planes etc for such a long season. Let's not forget during SoO and those many cold, rainy winter nights in July/August where teams are lucky to pull 10/11/12k supporters. The clubs would surely struggle through such periods.
# Other revenue streams like club membership are on the rise.

All these points tie directly back to the irefutable point that we received a terribly undervauled TV deal last time. The next deal with increase substantially on what we have now even if we don't quite acheive our lofty goal of $1 billion. Money for the regular season may initially fall, but SoO and International league will counter-act that. The benefits of reducing the regular season are vast but would take a while to take the desired effect.
 

skeepe

Immortal
Messages
47,382
I didn't say I was enjoying the salary cap discussion, I simply said that I wasn't letting it kill my enjoyment of the game.
 

Galeforce

Bench
Messages
2,602
skeepe and Drake
did you guys read the articles for Gasnier from May and June 2010?

There appears NO analysis reviews Audit of the third party values and none were even identified. The May excerpt where $1.4m is announced by Doust as the value being worked , clearly includes third party deals , yet Gasnier has not even signed and Doust is working them NOT Gasnier.
This is exactly what souths did , yet Souths deal has been scrutinised in detail.
What is the detail on the Gasnier third party and why were they approved and Souths Inglis deal not? thank you for proving the Souths fan point about the inconsistent treatment given to Souths deal versus Saints deal.


cut from Phil Rothfield Sports Editor-at-large

<LI class="source ">From: The Daily Telegraph <LI class="date-and-time last">May 11, 2010 12:00AM

The Dragons desperately want him but can only pay a small amount this season then kick in with serious dollars for 2011 and 2012. Over three seasons he could still earn around the $1.4 million mark with third-party sponsorship support.

Future salary cap changes to benefit Dragons, Gasnier

Chris Barrett, Glenn --- late June 2010




NRL chief executive David Gallop said he was comfortable Mark Gasnier had been placed under the Dragons' salary cap ''at a reasonable figure'' for 2010, after insisting the club review their initial intention to sign the former Test centre for only $50,000 for the rest of the season.
Gallop and Dragons chief executive Peter Doust both declined to comment on exactly what portion of Gasnier's heavily back-ended four-and-a-half year contract was listed under the $4.1 million cap for this year after he officially rejoined the club yesterday. But the Herald understands the figure is approximately $120,000.
Lengthy negotiations between Doust and the NRL were required to get the Gasnier deal over the line and it has been accompanied with scepticism in some quarters about just how a player of such quality could be allowed to be the recipient of such a low fee within the salary cap.
Advertisement: Story continues below
However, Gallop said yesterday the Dragons had been convinced to increase their initial $50,000 half-season valuation significantly.
''We had a bit of argy-bargy about the initial figure that they were looking to put him in at for the remainder of 2010,'' Gallop said.
''They've now got him in the cap at a reasonable figure. We also accepted that it is a fairly unusual situation and clearly to have him back in the game is good as well.''
Doust said the Gasnier contract, which keeps him at the club until the end of 2014, had been struck with an eye to future changes to the salary cap, which include a $100,000 rise in the cap itself, the relaxing of rules regulating third-party payments and a doubling of the $150,000 allowance for marquee players. ''They aren't actually [ratified] in the regulations. But we can be optimistic in 2012, '13 and '14 that &#8230; it will all work come that time,'' Doust said.
''I think we can expect an increase in the playing salary cap, we can also expect increases in allowances for arrangements outside the cap - existing sponsors and third-party sponsors - and there's likely to be an increase in long-term player allowances. Everything that has happened in the cap sense has worked in our favour. We're in a time of changing circumstances with the salary cap. That has obviously had an impact in what we could achieve in the latter years.''
Doust would not elaborate on the total value of Gasnier's deal but said the $1.9m figure reported yesterday was incorrect. He agreed that it had been a ''complicated negotiation process''.
The response from rival NRL clubs yesterday was to urge consistency from the league given the unusual nature of the back-ended deal.
''Rules for one, rules for all,'' Penrith chief executive Mick Leary said. ''If they give the OK on that &#8230; if we get into that situation, or any other club, they should be allowed the same principles.''
 

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