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Salary cap its own worst enemy in sorry Inglis saga

NAS

Juniors
Messages
367
It's also been stated time and again that Inglis's manager had not seen the deals before they were presented to Inglis by Souths.

The sponsors have denied that they colluded with Souths, and that may be true. The fact of the matter is though that they were presented to Inglis by South Sydney, and were guaranteed to him as part of his salary package. A club guaranteeing third party deals must include said deals in the salary cap.

Pretty straightforward.

But that's exactly the point. The article doesn't rubbish the ruling, rather it rubbishes the rule.........

Who cares how the third party arrangement came into play? Why does it matter, as long as that deal is;

a) a sponsorship of the player and not the club; and
b) is a reasonable remuneration for services rendered outside the player's duties with the club (in other words, it's not FOR him playing for that club).

The Cameron Smith debacle mid last year is a better example of this travesty....the bloke goes on Fox and provides a service, for which he ought be remunerated........

The NRL holds that agreement to be salary cap inclusive........

That is wrong....Melbourne doesn't benefit by Smith going on Fox, and the argument may be that News is colluding because they own both entities, but seriously.........one doesn't necessarily follow the other....despite the possibility otherwise....If the agreement is fair in terms of the work performed, then it ought be exempt......

And that is far easier to work out than a player's notional value......
 

RL1908

Bench
Messages
2,717
Sean, you are usually a good read but that article was garbage.

The best sports league in the world has high profile players and high profile clubs.... and a salary cap.

This sport is full of chicken littles. Every time a fat merkin threatens to leave the code because he might be able to only afford 300,000 cheeseburgers a year everyone runs around like the sky is falling.

The problem with our game isn't the salary cap, it is that our spineless administrators have bowed to the demands of the self interested and created loopholes everywhere that are exploited and hard to police.

Raise the cap, close the loopholes, and stop jumping at shadows.

And while we are at it, we need to stop the kickbacks from clubs demanded by managers. Everyone knows it happens, no one has the cojones to stand up to it.

I appreciate the candour - happy to take it, but I didn't mention salary cap because the few that have one don't apply it with rigour of the one in the NRL.

NBA has one but it is a "soft" cap full of exceptions/holes and it is just under 60% of revenue. NFL has had one (but might not for much longer) where the cap is approx 60% of the NFL's revenue. AFL is full of holes when it suits, and admissions were made earlier this year about how many 3rd party deals there are (and the lack of close scrutiny).

The common thread to all of those comps is they have no or little competition for their players from other comps/codes. English & French RU are starting to apply caps and are ending up with same difficulties/compaints found in RL.

The NRL club grant will soon match the salary cap. So, in effect, who is paying the players?

Before the SL war & tv money the NSWRL contributed very little to club finances - the clubs paid for the players at something like 80% of their income (gate takings and sponsorship/LeaguesClub).

When the NRL grant matches the cap the clubs will have that rate down to zero.

NRL clubs are pulling in $13m-$20m a year to run the club, but soon will pay nothing for players. Sure running a club in 2010 is different to 1980, but it is a myth to believe that the cap has stopped club spending - it hasnt -they are still raising as much as they can, spending it where they see competitive advantage (eg coach, staff, facilities) & finsihing the year off with nothing in the bank or a loss.

Put all of that together, mix it with the reality that RL alone (unlike every other major comp with a cap) has athletes who can and do transfer well to other codes/comps, and that in Aust/NZ RL is not the only game in town for fans, sponors & tv. The cap in its present rigid form is the wrong tool.

Even the application of the cap causes cross-code stories and free plugs for other codes to come up all the time - ARU & AFL get free marketing via the NRL cap. Outside of NSW/QLD they see NRL players freely talk of swapping codes, seeing the world, new challenges...It reinforces the belief that the NRL is a stale comp heading backwards, that not even the star players want to be part of it - and that's the message it sends out in those very same markets that RL seeks to grow the game in! Key decision makers in national and international companies may well form the same assupmtions about RL.

I've never said RL should be a free-for-all in club-land - but it is obvious that applying a hard cap without exception and encouragement, while no one else in RL has their incomes/spending capped, is just wrong - it is wrong to place it all on the players.

And to top that, when was the last time the NRL comp got a buzz from bringing in a player from another code? The NRL comp should aspire to be the best pro rugby comp in the world. Before RU went pro RL didn't get every player it wanted as some were reluctant to give up amateur status. Yet when that barrier came down, and the world has since been flooded with 15 years of pro rugby players, all RL has got is Gareth Thomas in Wales at the backend of his career.

I can't agree with those that say another player will come along, there's more where he came from, if he doesn't like it then leave, the game itself will see us through, we have the greatest game of all, the comp will become a farce without a cap...Do people seriously think that is the sort of thinking that got RL from 1895 to 1994?

Paul Gallen got an award today named in honour of Harry Sunderland - do a search on him and read up - the man was loved and hated here and in the UK - he was a RL adminstrator that tried things - some worked, some failed miserably. But he never stopped aspiring and trying to make RL the best it could be as a professional sport.

I'm sorry, but a hard and rigid cap is the most unoriginal idea any sport could burden itself with and expect to grow, and maybe survive.

Sorry, didn't intend to write that much!
 
Last edited:

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,700
Is this the thread where we continue laughing at 50uffs apologists now that the 'Greg Inglis headed to South Sydney - no players to be shed' http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/showthread.php?t=373056 thread is closed?
This is the thread where intelligent people discuss how the salary cap in its current form, and how the NRL applies it, hurts the game. And where idiots maintain everything is great and there is no need to adapt or change anything ever.
 

Hutty1986

Immortal
Messages
34,034
This is the thread where intelligent people discuss how the salary cap in its current form, and how the NRL applies it, hurts the game. And where idiots maintain everything is great and there is no need to adapt or change anything ever.

:( Why are they so mean to Souths BunniesMan?

They've been ultra consistent for 40 years and are certainties to win the comp next year
 

babyg

Juniors
Messages
1,512
Correct.

What the "What about the Broncos?" Souths fans are forgetting is that the Broncos were also told that some of their third party deals must be counted under the cap, so they obviously made the same mistakes Souths did.

The difference is, the Broncos accepted the decision of the NRL and made it work, so much so that it even got to the point where they had a contract ready for Inglis to sign.

I think it is fair enough to suggest that teams with notable pools of sponsors lining up are a large lure to these clubs. The NRL and the players know that it is . Therefore as the NRL are making subjective calls to include some of these deals in the cap. Otherwise these clubs can sign stars for nothing and the players still get megabucks. This is the crux of the problem and why most people are failing to see logic in the NRLs decisions.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,700
I appreciate the candour - happy to take it, but I didn't mention salary cap because the few that have one don't apply it with rigour of the one in the NRL.

NBA has one but it is a "soft" cap full of exceptions/holes and it is just under 60% of revenue. NFL has had one (but might not for much longer) where the cap is approx 60% of the NFL's revenue. AFL is full of holes when it suits, and admissions were made earlier this year about how many 3rd party deals there are (and the lack of close scrutiny).

The common thread to all of those comps is they have no or little competition for their players from other comps/codes. English & French RU are starting to apply caps and are ending up with same difficulties/compaints found in RL.

The NRL club grant will soon match the salary cap. So, in effect, who is paying the players?

Before the SL war & tv money the NSWRL contributed very little to club finances - the clubs paid for the players at something like 80% of their income (gate takings and sponsorship/LeaguesClub).

When the NRL grant matches the cap the clubs will have that rate down to zero.

NRL clubs are pulling in $13m-$20m a year to run the club, but soon will pay nothing for players. Sure running a club in 2010 is different to 1980, but it is a myth to believe that the cap has stopped club spending - it hasnt -they are still raising as much as they can, spending it where they see competitive advantage (eg coach, staff, facilities) & finsihing the year off with nothing in the bank or a loss.

Put all of that together, mix it with the reality that RL alone (unlike every other major comp with a cap) has athletes who can and do transfer well to other codes/comps, and that in Aust/NZ RL is not the only game in town for fans, sponors & tv. The cap in its present rigid form is the wrong tool.

Even the application of the cap causes cross-code stories and free plugs for other codes to come up all the time - ARU & AFL get free marketing via the NRL cap. Outside of NSW/QLD they see NRL players freely talk of swapping codes, seeing the world, new challenges...It reinforces the belief that the NRL is a stale comp heading backwards, that not even the star players want to be part of it - and that's the message it sends out in those very same markets that RL seeks to grow the game in! Key decision makers in national and international companies may well form the same assupmtions about RL.

I've never said RL should be a free-for-all in club-land - but it is obvious that applying a hard cap without exception and encouragement, while no one else in RL has their incomes/spending capped, is just wrong - it is wrong to place it all on the players.

And to top that, when was the last time the NRL comp got a buzz from bringing in a player from another code? The NRL comp should aspire to be the best pro rugby comp in the world. Before RU went pro RL didn't get every player it wanted as some were reluctant to give up amateur status. Yet when that barrier came down, and the world has since been flooded with 15 years of pro rugby players, all RL has got is Gareth Thomas in Wales at the backend of his career.

I can't agree with those that say another player will come along, there's more where he came from, if he doesn't like it then leave, the game itself will see us through, we have the greatest game of all, the comp will become a farce without a cap...Do people seriously think that is the sort of thinking that got RL from 1895 to 1994?

Paul Gallen got an award today named in honour of Harry Sunderland - do a search on him and read up - the man was loved and hated here and in the UK - he was a RL adminstrator that tried things - some worked, some failed miserably. But he never stopped aspiring and trying to make RL the best it could be as a professional sport.

I'm sorry, but a hard and rigid cap is the most unoriginal idea any sport could burden itself with and expect to grow, and maybe survive.

Sorry, didn't intend to write that much!
Awesome post. I agree with just about every single word.
 

RL1908

Bench
Messages
2,717
But that's exactly the point. The article doesn't rubbish the ruling, rather it rubbishes the rule.........

Who cares how the third party arrangement came into play? Why does it matter, as long as that deal is;

a) a sponsorship of the player and not the club; and
b) is a reasonable remuneration for services rendered outside the player's duties with the club (in other words, it's not FOR him playing for that club).

The Cameron Smith debacle mid last year is a better example of this travesty....the bloke goes on Fox and provides a service, for which he ought be remunerated........

The NRL holds that agreement to be salary cap inclusive........

That is wrong....Melbourne doesn't benefit by Smith going on Fox, and the argument may be that News is colluding because they own both entities, but seriously.........one doesn't necessarily follow the other....despite the possibility otherwise....If the agreement is fair in terms of the work performed, then it ought be exempt......

And that is far easier to work out than a player's notional value......

That's probably not a good example - Smith had added to the deal that the Storm would guarantee to pay him if the Fox deal fell over to practicalities or whatever. That's what the NRL had a problem with. If the Storm didn't go as guarantee to that $50K, maybe Smith would have gone to the Gold Coast per the offer they made that opted against when resigning with the Storm.

So, 3rd parties should in my view be exempt, but not if club backs it up and will pay if it falls over - can't have clubs giving guarantee to pay it even if the player/sponsor fail to do the role as agreed.
 

drake

First Grade
Messages
5,433
This is the thread where intelligent people discuss how the salary cap in its current form, and how the NRL applies it, hurts the game. And where idiots maintain everything is great and there is no need to adapt or change anything ever.
Do you even know what my opinion of the salary cap is? No, because I haven't shared it.

What I have stated is the hypocrisy of a club challenging the salary cap, even though for years they were it's biggest fans before Russell Crowe came along with his Hollywood millions.

Abolition of any sort of playing roster control would be detrimental to the sport. I do not want to see a league where less than half of the clubs can even compete. I seriously doubt that St George Illawarra would suffer in a cap free environment, but the sport would. If your only concern is watching South Sydney win a grand final, I believe Television was invented when they last won one... just get a DVD and watch it over and over again. If you want to watch a competition where there is actual competition across the board, you need a kind of restraint.

The slaray cap as it stands is not the way to go, but I do not want to see a rushed implementation of changes just so Rusties Rabbits can buy Greg Inglis.

And if Mark Gasnier's signing with Saints was causing the same kind of ruckus (which I really fail to see the correlation with), I would be on the side of equity for all clubs.

Mark Gasnier's contract was checked and discussed before any announcement was made, and his contract with St George Illawarra gave them first dibs. An out of form player returning to his junior club from Rugby Union is a long walk from a guy who got paid more than the NRL knew signing with a club in a different state after using bullsh*t to reneg on his last contract and reneg on a handshake deal.
 

Dragon

Coach
Messages
14,922

CLAPPING_GIF_RE_Suggestion-s300x225-49691-580.gif
 

skeepe

Immortal
Messages
47,382
As has already been asked a couple of times, do you have any evidence of this at all because there are 4 stat decs saying that this is entirely wrong.

Schubert found deals submitted as ''arm's length'' third-party agreements were in fact drafted by the club and, in some cases, revised with the sponsor without the involvement of Inglis's manager, Allan Gainey. The contracts were also in place before a playing contract was signed.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...er-sale-looms-20101218-1918z.html?from=smh_sb
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,700
Do you even know what my opinion of the salary cap is? No, because I haven't shared it.
I didn't say I did know it.

The slaray cap as it stands is not the way to go, but I do not want to see a rushed implementation of changes just so Rusties Rabbits can buy Greg Inglis.
So we agree. I don't want it abolished, I don't think many people want that. I said the cap "in it's current form" is a problem. It needs to be changed and made more flexible to help retain our stars.

Also, this isn't just Inglis. His situation is an example of why the system needs to change but he's not the first, and sadly I doubt he'll be the last. The problem was around before Inglis.
 

Galeforce

Bench
Messages
2,602
Drake ,
if you are sure Mark G contracts were all above aboard can you advise.
how much time was Mark Gasniers contract reviewed and checked by the NRL?
How many third party folks were involved and were they interviewed by the NRL . Were the affidavits taken from the third parties ? ( as was the Souths case and then ignored by NRL).
I for one do not recall much lapsed time on Gas's return.
 

skeepe

Immortal
Messages
47,382
Drake ,
if you are sure Mark G contracts were all above aboard can you advise.
how much time was Mark Gasniers contract reviewed and checked by the NRL?
How many third party folks were involved and were they interviewed by the NRL . Were the affidavits taken from the third parties ? ( as was the Souths case and then ignored by NRL).
I for one do not recall much lapsed time on Gas's return.

It was first mooted as a possibility in December 2009.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/nrl/gasnier-may-return-to-dragons/story-e6frfgbo-1225807291459

In early May, it was announced that he would be returning.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/n...g-boost-for-code/story-e6frfgdo-1225864747473

He signed in late June.
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...after-returning-to-dragons-20100628-ze57.html

Short memory, or just a selective one?
 
Last edited:

drake

First Grade
Messages
5,433

Thanks mate, saved me a lot of dredging.
 

NAS

Juniors
Messages
367
That's probably not a good example - Smith had added to the deal that the Storm would guarantee to pay him if the Fox deal fell over to practicalities or whatever. That's what the NRL had a problem with. If the Storm didn't go as guarantee to that $50K, maybe Smith would have gone to the Gold Coast per the offer they made that opted against when resigning with the Storm.

So, 3rd parties should in my view be exempt, but not if club backs it up and will pay if it falls over - can't have clubs giving guarantee to pay it even if the player/sponsor fail to do the role as agreed.

I wasn't aware of that.....

Assuming that the Storm didn't guarantee that deal, it should be an allowable exemption.

I agree with what you say.....Ultimately the rules should exist to ensure in effect that it's not the club paying the player (as in a bulldogs 2002 scenario).

But I believe that all third party deals should be allowed, regardless of whether or not the club introduces the player, whether the payer is a sponsor or an affiliate of the club, provided that the player is performing services of equal remuneration thereof.
 

Ziggy the God

First Grade
Messages
5,240
How is keeping the best player of all time at the club that nurtured him in any way relevant to Souths' quest to sign a mercenary?


I have no issue with them keeping him in the game, the last thing I wanted was for him to leave.

What I have an issue is the NRL aiding one club, by helping organise third party deals, whilst not offering the same to others.

You talk about a level playing field, but that helped your club, whilst everyone else got nada.

Here you go:

---------------------------------------------------------------
League's last bid to save Joey

News Ltd and Channel Nine have guaranteed Andrew Johns a career after football if he stays in rugby league - while attempts to construct a similar package in rugby union yesterday faltered......

NRL chief executive David Gallop and News Ltd chief executive John Hartigan yesterday met Fordham at the media empire's Surry Hills offices.

Channel Nine chief executive David Gyngell was unable to attend but briefed Hartigan on what the network could offer Johns. It is understood the components included:
  • Increased and guaranteed work as a commentator for up to 10 years, as well as a regular spot on The Footy Show and other possible lifestyle and variety programs;
  • A higher profile with News Ltd, expanding his current involvement as a columnist.
The NRL has already told the Knights it would approve a new third-party sponsorship arrangement worth $100,000 on top of the $500,000 a season the club is believed to have offered him.

Gallop hoped a media job package outlined today would act as a "sweetener" for Johns.

http://www.clubconnect.com.au/news4092.asp
---------------------------------------------------------------


So Johns and his manager played off the Waratah's against the NRL, and the NRL blinked, and got their media partners to underwrite him for 10 years.

So why not pick the best player at each club and do something similar?

Oh yeah, it is ok if it is done for the Knights.
 

RL1908

Bench
Messages
2,717
I wasn't aware of that.....

Assuming that the Storm didn't guarantee that deal, it should be an allowable exemption.

Yes - provided the player does reasonable work for the $ amount paid.

I wasn't aware of that.....
But I believe that all third party deals should be allowed, regardless of whether or not the club introduces the player, whether the payer is a sponsor or an affiliate of the club, provided that the player is performing services of equal remuneration thereof.

Only problem is scenario where existing club sponsor shifts money from that and spends similar amount on the player. Could end up with lots of players well paid, but pauper clubs.

There is no perfect answer & people should stop trying to find one, or to shoehorn the current cap into being one.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,974
If the salary cap auditor wasn't looking into the motives of Melbourne's 3rd party sponsorships then they'd still have 2 premierships in the cupboard....

The reason why sponsors are quizzed is because clubs have a history of funneling secret cash to 3rd parties to pay their players. This is how the dogs and storm rorted the cap.

The NRL can't just take it at face value whenever a 3rd party wants to throw a truckload at a player. They need to investigate to ensure that first of all the cash is even going to be coming from them and 2nd that there isn't any agreement between 3rd party sponsor and club about the deal.

a 3rd party sponsor for example should not be given a corporate box to any of the teams home games, or have signage displayed in any way.

The absolute only problem with the salary cap right now is that it is too low. A new TV deal with fix that. No need to scrap the system prematurely now and make it open slather
 

macavity

Referee
Messages
20,505
So Johns and his manager played off the Waratah's against the NRL, and the NRL blinked, and got their media partners to underwrite him for 10 years.

So why not pick the best player at each club and do something similar?

Oh yeah, it is ok if it is done for the Knights.

Did the club underwrite or even organise the deal?
 

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