I've already stated Hitler was elected..You obviously don't read what I stated, elections can turn up disasters.I've already spelt out the sequence from the Treaty of Versailles,to the Great depression.i could go into the whole scenario,and bore people witless.
Whose eroding democracy in this country?PMs and Treasurers make decisions after they have been elected.Some good decisions some not so.
You are putting words into my mouth.Never stated he got elected on a platform of of executing Jews or dissidents.He had reeducation camps for political opponents well before the "Final solution" came in.
When Govts here eventually rid themselves of opposition and put away political prisoners, then we have a problem.Thugs were used with the brown shirts in street to street running fights.
Missed the point BS.You made the dogmatic statement ,that it was APT to bring in Nazism applicable to ScoMo.Eroding democracy where?
I note the left are the ones who love to tag
You are comparing Post WW1 Germany/Great Depression with an Australian Govt with a strong opposition.They lose another one or two members they are behind the 8 ball. Somtimes this Govt has had to make concessions to Senators to pass legislation.So much for authoritarianism
"After execution camps are set up", that's your interpretation, and not even close to the mark
Where are all these democracies under the Westminster system ,that have fallen into the authoritarian trap.I can think of coups in Fiji.
We have a free press, we also have troops fighting in Afghanistan/Iraq/Syria.We also have terrorism hovering around.Just like in WW2 when our service people are fighting abroad, they should be protected as much a possible.I don't pretend to be an expert ,perhaps the Feds went overboard going to the ABC, but the press is not above the law.Sometimes this free press gets sued for false articles or naming people in error.
Transparent Govt we all want that ,but just about every Govt I know has at one time or another brought in a nasty, or had members who did the wrong thing.Both Liberal and Labor.
Thought we had an Independent judiciary, we also have referendums. ScoMO had no control over Gay Marriage decision.
Sometimes authoritarian countries of the socialist nature eg Eastern Europe become reasonable pillars of democracy.Try getting Venezuela or Cuba to follow suit.Ask yourself why is this so.
Well it perhaps shows that whilst democracies are not the ultimate form of Govt, they do a hell of a better job of getting people involved.
My opinion Trump (who I find objectionable)will probably get back in .His opposition with a Sanders socialist ,and Bloomberg a last minute wealthy Luigi are puerile.Whilst he did't get the popular vote, he got the electoral state numbers.
Hispanic and Black Americans now have higher employment and housing than ever before.Manufacturing is booming as is tradeHe has rebuilt the defence forces that were left run down by an indecisive Obama.
You appear to have ignored my comments and chose to do so to somehow validate the Nazism description.Sorry mate I would not apply that apt tag to any Government that has run this country since WW2.An appalling comparison.
You are the one who is misreading what I am saying.
When I say that we have to worry about protecting democracy before oppositions are banned, you say that I am putting words in your mouth saying that he was elected on a platform of executing Jews.
Clearly I am not saying you said that. I have understood your dismissal of my apt statement.
You are essentially saying that 1) there are complex historical reasons for Nazism
2) Our democracy is strong
3) Therefore the comparison is not apt and is offensive, as we are a long way from Nazism
Neither of your first two points at all counter what I have said, and your third point does not naturally flow from your first two.
As you have said, there are not that many failed democratic states (though there are a number of "semi" democratic states). If we try to analyse why democracies fail, firstly we draw upon a limited number, and secondly, the failed states are pretty vile. This does not invalidate attempts to find why democracies fail though, though I have noted that doing so can be troubling because democracies, even when not strong, are usually a long way from the vile conditions of the few post democratic societies.
So, to directly address your arguments as succinctly as I can:
1) there are complex historical reasons for Nazism.
Yes, there are. I acknowledged some of them. Nevertheless, the point that I have made, that is irrelevant to this argument, is that Germany was a democracy, that through democratic processes (and yes, plenty of others, with help from such august institutions as the church and major business groups) eroded its own democracy to become a disgusting authoritarian country.
You say you acknowledge that it was a democracy, but you don't really agree to this point that democracy can be eroded through processes that are legal in a democracy, as you reiterate that Germany is unique, and besides which...(point 2)
2) Our democracy is much stronger. Which is again a bit of a dodge. You acknowledge Fiji as a Westminster democracy that has failed and still tout our house of review and Westminster system, but even if their were no failed Westminster brand democracies, the point that democracy can devolve through action from democratically elected leaders remains.
The problem with the Nazi label, as I have said, is that it easily offends. You seem caught up with it when you say things like I made a "dogmatic statement", and that you would not apply the "apt tag" (there is no tag), and it is an "appalling comparison". Because of your horror for this horrific regime, you are still leaping to emotional comparisons of the vile things Nazis did in a totalitarian state, which are not at all the things I am saying are "apt".
You are so adamant to make the point that we are nothing like Nazi Germany you have backed down on your earlier distaste for the anti democratic things that have been done recently in Australia (though you hedge on freedom of press).
We are on the same page, you just don't like the comparison.
We both (all) agree that Nazi Germany is a blight on humanity (not hard to agree). We both agree that no democracy currently (and probably even few authoritarian states at the moment) are anything like Nazi Germany in terms of how evil they are (I guess ISIS/ISIL would be up there, and Syria).
We both agree Nazi Germany came from a democratic state, that failed for a variety of complex reasons. We both know that Hitler didn't just gain power, he worked a democratic system (including using terrible violence like the "Night of long Knives", that also had political backing from politicians, the courts and the military despite being technically illegal according to the democratically formed laws) to become a supreme leader above the law.
We also both agree that our governments, even the ones you would find it "appalling" to apply the "apt tag"
to, have been caught out doing things that erode democracy. You have backtracked on that here, but you know spending tax payer money for blatant political purposes is both corrupt, and an erosion of democracy.
The only difference in our positions is how offended you are by any thought that our democracy could collapse. I don't claim it is imminent.
I have said that the extent to which you erode democracy is the extent to which you can be compared to Nazism in terms of political processes, in that it came about from eroded democracy.
If a poorly worded headline is a very minor erosion of democracy (which it is, but very minor), it is not very similar to the well organised propaganda of Goebbels. To call the paper Goebbels like would be unfair. To say that propaganda undermines democracy and allows authoritarian rulers to fool people into giving up democracy, as happened in Nazi Germany, is not unfair. Then it would be apt to remind people that while propaganda starts small and unorganised it has not much effect, it can lead (not by itself, it needs other historical factors) to Nazi like states.
If it were otherwise we would not value free press.
Only because we know that failed democracies can come about and can be terrible, and processes like propaganda, non independent judiciary, police over using powers, no transparency in law etc are tools in creating such states do we value their opposite, democratically affirming processes.
