Should Australia have a challenge cup?

[PaulyTom]

Not sure teams would play there top players .

 

[Meapro Ham]

We used to have it. It was called the Amco cup, played midweek. Eventually it was abandoned probably because it was just too much footy. As it would be if they tried to introduce it now.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

So why wouldn't it work in Australia? You say you can't begin to explain why it won't work. but it seems to work fine in league elsewhere.

Firstly, it is hardly a raging success in England anyway. The final is huge but the rest is pretty pathetic. They struggle to get 10k for semis these days.

And why it's so hard to believe something that "works" in England wouldn't here is bizarre. It's like saying Origin works here so there's no reasons it won't in England (and it's been proven it doesn't).

But here's just a few reasons:
Geography - NSW alone must be four or five times the size of England. You can't send amateur teams all over. The cost would also be a factor for the same reason.
Structure - the game here uses a hierarchical system in which players move between clubs at different levels. Brisbane v Ipswich for example would be a first grade side effectively playing its reserve grade side.
Timing - all comps here are winter comps but the amateur levels start after the NRL so it couldn't run pre-season. It would have to interrupt the NRL which is not going to happen.
Tradition - this is the main reason it exists in England and would not be a factor here.

And that's before you consider the amount of football being played already which is probably the most significant of all.

 

[Pommy]

Firstly, it is hardly a raging success in England anyway. The final is huge but the rest is pretty pathetic. They struggle to get 10k for semis these days.

And why it's so hard to believe something that "works" in England wouldn't here is bizarre. It's like saying Origin works here so there's no reasons it won't in England (and it's been proven it doesn't).

But here's just a few reasons:
Geography - NSW alone must be four or five times the size of England. You can't send amateur teams all over. The cost would also be a factor for the same reason.
Structure - the game here uses a hierarchical system in which players move between clubs at different levels. Brisbane v Ipswich for example would be a first grade side effectively playing its reserve grade side.
Timing - all comps here are winter comps but the amateur levels start after the NRL so it couldn't run pre-season. It would have to interrupt the NRL which is not going to happen.
Tradition - this is the main reason it exists in England and would not be a factor here.

And that's before you consider the amount of football being played already which is probably the most significant of all.

The FAA are sending amateur teams all over aren't they? Next year teams may have to fly to Toronto although I will admit I think the Canadians have to cover the cost.
Structure thats a good point which I had thought of but Im sure they could come up with a solution.
Timing the preliminary rounds could be held in the off season if they are amateur its not like they are going to turn down the chance to play the big boys.

I admit you make good points though.
My point of it works in England (although its England,Wales, France and soon Canada really) is just as simplistic as you saying it wouldn't work.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

The FAA are sending amateur teams all over aren't they? Next year teams may have to fly to Toronto although I will admit I think the Canadians have to cover the cost.
Structure thats a good point which I had thought of but Im sure they could come up with a solution.
Timing the preliminary rounds could be held in the off season if they are amateur its not like they are going to turn down the chance to play the big boys.

I admit you make good points though.
My point of it works in England (although its England,Wales, France and soon Canada really) is just as simplistic as you saying it wouldn't work.

The FFA don't have a straight draw. So it's not like the CC. Teams play locally in the early rounds, then move to a regional stage and so on.
You can't possibly have early rounds in the off-season because of cricket, weather, lack of interest and probably a few other reasons as well. Pre-season footy is already hard to organise for these reasons when it's trials and sevens comps and stuff, never mind a national knockout comp.

The fact is the CRL did have a knockout called the Country Challenge Cup a few years ago. It probably lasted five years at the most before it died a natural death.

 

[Pommy]

The FFA don't have a straight draw. So it's not like the CC. Teams play locally in the early rounds, then move to a regional stage and so on.
You can't possibly have early rounds in the off-season because of cricket, weather, lack of interest and probably a few other reasons as well. Pre-season footy is already hard to organise for these reasons when it's trials and sevens comps and stuff, never mind a national knockout comp.

The fact is the CRL did have a knockout called the Country Challenge Cup a few years ago. It probably lasted five years at the most before it died a natural death.

I wasn't saying it had to be exactly the same as the challenge cup. A regionalised system would obviously be the way to go. Would the CCC have lasted if there was the chance to play bigger teams?

 

[East Coast Tiger]

I wasn't saying it had to be exactly the same as the challenge cup. A regionalised system would obviously be the way to go. Would the CCC have lasted if there was the chance to play bigger teams?

Maybe but it wouldn't have solved a number of the problems that exist. The next level up would be NSW Cup sides. But they aren't really stand alone clubs in most cases, they're NRL reserve grade sides, so I don't see how it could work.

 

[Pommy]

Maybe but it wouldn't have solved a number of the problems that exist. The next level up would be NSW Cup sides. But they aren't really stand alone clubs in most cases, they're NRL reserve grade sides, so I don't see how it could work.

Perhaps NRL contracted players don't play or if a player plays for the reserve grade they can't later play for the 1st grade in the challenge cup. This situation arrises in the FA cup if a player is transferred during the winter window, they become cup tied.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

Perhaps NRL contracted players don't play or if a player plays for the reserve grade they can't later play for the 1st grade in the challenge cup. This situation arrises in the FA cup if a player is transferred during the winter window, they become cup tied.

What happens when Wenty is drawn to play Parra in the round of 16 or something? The structure of the game here is not conducive to this kind of concept. Even the Amco cup was just NSWRL first grade sides against rep teams from Brisbane and the bush, not a club knockout.

 

[Foreign Legion]

Have Nswrl and Qrl clubs with teams from png fiji nz in a knock out comp

 

[Danish]

If you want to involve country and regional sides in a comp against NRL clubs, why not use the 9s concept?

Host 9s tournaments in Brisbane, Sydney, country NSW and country QLD. The winners of each of those tourneys are then added to the NRL 9s at the beginning of the year to play against the big boys. Can easily just add a 5th team to each pool without too much trouble.

The 9s format would allow amateur teams to compete a little easier against the pros too as the game lends itself to luck a lot more

 

[Last Week]

I'm just amazed that ECT is having a discussion without being a negative condescending arse. Well done.

And I agree with him. It won't have the interest that people think it will. Even with only 32 teams involved, that's 31 matches with only the final likely to draw a significant interest.

People are also underestimating the tradition of the Challenge Cup in the UK aswell. The Queen has attended the Challenge Cup final previously.

 

[POPEYE]

Of course Australia should have a 'challenge cup', just call the winners of the JJ Giltinan Shield 'Premiers', recognise and celebrate them as the best team of the year and all the razzmatazz that goes with it. Then pick the best 4 or 5 teams from The Shield and play a cup series. Call it the f**king Toddy Cup or something similar . . .media, supporters and hangers-on would all like two bites of the RL cherry

 

[Perth Red]

Given the games inability to have a sustained idea without changing its mind every few years the "tradition" argument means nothing new will ever happen. You do realise that nothing has tradition when it first starts don't you?

Until the games structure changes to an NRL reserve grade and a second division comp independent of the NRL level it won't work. If it ever does it would be the ideal time to start a knockout cup comp of this type.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Yes I think it would work, but not with the current schedule that the NRL is played under.

If lower grade teams were to be included with NRl sides then doubling pre-season trials as knockout matches could help things a little.

There would still have to be a drastic change to the schedule for it to work though.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

I'm just amazed that ECT is having a discussion without being a negative condescending arse. Well done.

And I agree with him. It won't have the interest that people think it will. Even with only 32 teams involved, that's 31 matches with only the final likely to draw a significant interest.

People are also underestimating the tradition of the Challenge Cup in the UK aswell. The Queen has attended the Challenge Cup final previously.

While there's no doubt the interest wouldn't match UK's Challenge Cup initially, the tradition reason is never a good reason not to do something. Tradition starts somewhere. If the NRL were to introduce a Challenge Cup style comp it wouldn't be created to capture the interest or eyes of people who have been fans for years as much as start a new tradition that future league followers can grow up with.

 

[edabomb]

Round of 16 is played the final week of the trials. Round of 8 is played on Anzac test weekend. Round of 4 is played on Origin Game 1 weekend and the final is played on Origin game 2 or 3 weekend.

NRL season would need to be cut to 24 rounds/22 matches per team. For that reason it will never happen.

 

[Marshall_magic]

It's a good idea but I don't think it'll work. In football you can sit back and defend and try to jag a goal or two on the counter. In League the weight of possession will tell. I don't see CRL teams even getting within 20 of the Knights, coming up against top 4 teams will be a massacre.

Not to mention that the NRL players are the best in the world, the A-League whilst there are some class players, doesn't boast the same riches. Perhaps if they do it with Qld Cup, NSW Cup, a few CRL teams, NZ teams and Pacific Island teams you'd have some luck but I don't see it working out.

 

[Perth Red]

What you see, all be it very very rarely, is that the team that should walk it go in over confident and the minnows get the bounce of the ball and jag a "memorable" win. It happens extremely few times but that is the point and the "dream" of knock out cups.

 

[Marshall_magic]

What you see, all be it very very rarely, is that the team that should walk it go in over confident and the minnows get the bounce of the ball and jag a "memorable" win. It happens extremely few times but that is the point and the "dream" of knock out cups.

I think you would see the minnows get a quick lead, but 80 minutes of Rugby League is a long time, the class of the top players will see them get themselves back into the game and run over the top. To make the comparison to football, if you get the jump on your opposition there, and spring out to an early lead, you can put more men behind the ball and try and hang on.