Should Beale replace Bird at right centre?

[Frank Discussion]

no problem at all, you come at with me with a rise and you'll get exactly that in return

and appreciate the informative response back

now my rebuttal

if i'm the opposing coach to a team playing yours, and I tell my forwards to take the ball up either edge, like the old days to open it up for the backs, how will your defensive pattern react to that?

keeping in mind your halves are on either edge and and my big boppers are targeting them? my forwards arent playing through the middle third, they are playing at the edges

and then my team sets for an old school back line movement, half 5/8 and centres all on the same side

i pretty confident you will have to adjust your defensive line to accommodate, with width and depth across the field your forwards are very susceptible to an incorrect defensive read and are unlikely to be able able to match the speed or agility of the players running at them, most likely inside or outside centre

this is my whole point, yes what you say might be correct, now, but that is because the attack has become predictable so you can plan for it accordingly

the play book in league is identical in nearly every club, and limited, you have those who can pull it off like clock work and those who look f**king geniused attempting it

the coach has become too prominent in the modern era of league, guys like langer, cliff lyons, terry lamb etc dont exist anymore because the natural instinct to play what they see is coached out of them in exchange for "structures" which are repeatable, coachable, predicatable and most importantly boring as f**k

in regard to bird, play him at lock on both sides, give him command to rove

defensively bring wade graham into the middle

he likes the front on contact big hits anyhow and he is f**king good at it

That's what edge back rowers are for. Widen your A defenders and jam in. You want your opposition going sideways.

 

[Ads]

I do agree the tactics in league are so incredibly limited. Where is the innovation?

I say this as a bigger soccer fan than league but take a leaf out of their tactical ingenuity and get creative. The games crying out for it.

 

[Birdee_Num_Num]

That's what edge back rowers are for. Widen your A defenders and jam in. You want your opposition going sideways.

your A defenders being those who defend the middle? 8,9,10,13?

for argument sake, you stick to that pattern, you are the bulldogs

your middle men being:

8. Tolman
9. Garvey
10. Graham
13. Eastwood

left edge 12. williams
right edge 11. Jackson

I'm the broncos

We've worked to short side to open up for a back line movement

7. Hunt
6. Milford
3. Reed
4. Roberts
5. Kahu / 2. Oates - depending on which side
1. Boyd

You widen your middle men with those players in motion running multiple options and you will create a whole world of hurt if you ask me

the jam works fine if the offense is flat, add depth to the equation and the defender(s) need to be real sure about who they are committed to and the timing needs to be super precise

you're getting those blokes to move with more width than usual, my take would be you could chuck the hit, stick and wrestle out the window, works in close quarters because all teams bash it through the middle

thats just my opinion

what adjustments will you make to protect your halves considering my pack is running at them all night? surely some protection?

 

[Frank Discussion]

No. Your A defenders are those marking up on the first receiver either side of the ruck. B defenders mark up on 2nd receiver, C on the third and so on. NRL teams don't generally have a guy in the line
Marking the ruck, that's the markers job. So if a shift is on you widen your A defenders who set the spacing in your line. The extra time it takes for the ball to get to the edge should mean (if your line speed is where you want it) the runner has less momentum and therefore makes less metres.

 

[Frank Discussion]

And picking out the halves to run at is Robotic rugby league 101. Every team does it. Those "boring" lead and sweep plays everyone complains about are designed to get a mis match on a weak defender (usually a half) with your strong attacking runners. Run your set to a predetermined space on the field near to one sideline, flair out a multiple option block run play to the other, repeat. It's the antithesis to innovation.

 

[Birdee_Num_Num]

No. Your A defenders are those marking up on the first receiver either side of the ruck. B defenders mark up on 2nd receiver, C on the third and so on. NRL teams don't generally have a guy in the line
Marking the ruck, that's the markers job. So if a shift is on you widen your A defenders who set the spacing in your line. The extra time it takes for the ball to get to the edge should mean (if your line speed is where you want it) the runner has less momentum and therefore makes less metres.

okay thanks for the explanation

I still have my reservations on whether that system would work against a deep back line

the timining and the spacing of your line completely changes, that defensive system works because all teams shift the ball the same way, they run the same plays and the offensive lines are flat, so the defense can preempt whats coming

lead runner, out the back, lead runner, out the back to sweeping fullback, winger

if the offensive line is deep you create more time to comit a defensive player to a shitty read and you create opportunity for hesitation

at pace it is easier to change direction with forward momentum than it is to come back laterally if youve over committed one way or another

Watch nfl routes and watch the commitment to the lines they run and change of direction at speed, you run those to a T and they are almost impossible to stop, you wont get four blokes smothering shit out of players with the wrestle like you do now because if you actually use the full width of your offensive line your defense will naturally have to increase its width also

again just my opinion

 

[Birdee_Num_Num]

And picking out the halves to run at is Robotic rugby league 101. Every team does it. Those "boring" lead and sweep plays everyone complains about are designed to get a mis match on a weak defender (usually a half) with your strong attacking runners. Run your set to a predetermined space on the field near to one sideline, flair out a multiple option block run play to the other, repeat. It's the antithesis to innovation.

thats not what bores me about league, of course you want to gas the halves so they are less effective, its been done since the dawn of time

whats boring is centre a side RL where the second rowers are scoring centres tries and watching centres and wingers work within sometimes an 8 metre corridor because the middle third of the field (which is not an actual third) takes up 80% of the overall field width

add to that one out ruck patterns, kicks to the corner on the 5th

like i said repeatable, predictable, coachable

 

[carcharias]

When Ipswich win the comp maybe then we should start to look at the ad lib/headless chook style.

 

[Birdee_Num_Num]

there is nothing adlib about running a predetermined backline movement

adlib is the capacity to pull out of that movement at a given moment to play the opportunities unfolding infront on you, some players have a better instinct for it than others, you dont know how the defense reacts till your in the moment

Now you see players running their structures with blinkers on

nope got to run the play, coach said so

 

[carcharias]

You mean like chads kick for val against the dragons

Speaking of blinkers
I'd say they ad lib a lot more than they get credit for in the last 12 months .
Sure there is structure but it is changing with players that can play that way.

 

[Birdee_Num_Num]

You mean like chads kick for val against the dragons

Speaking of blinkers
I'd say they ad lib a lot more than they get credit for in the last 12 months .
Sure there is structure but it is changing with players that can play that way.

yes and i agree with you

I think more so out of necessity because we just dont pull off those plays like a brisbane, manly, melbourne

it breaks down and we revert to a quasi unstructured football to get through periods of the game

 

[carcharias]

Melbourne?

nup
robots.
always have been

 

[Birdee_Num_Num]

I was referring to our team

 

[Frank Discussion]

okay thanks for the explanation

I still have my reservations on whether that system would work against a deep back line

the timining and the spacing of your line completely changes, that defensive system works because all teams shift the ball the same way, they run the same plays and the offensive lines are flat, so the defense can preempt whats coming

lead runner, out the back, lead runner, out the back to sweeping fullback, winger

if the offensive line is deep you create more time to comit a defensive player to a shitty read and you create opportunity for hesitation

at pace it is easier to change direction with forward momentum than it is to come back laterally if youve over committed one way or another

Watch nfl routes and watch the commitment to the lines they run and change of direction at speed, you run those to a T and they are almost impossible to stop, you wont get four blokes smothering shit out of players with the wrestle like you do now because if you actually use the full width of your offensive line your defense will naturally have to increase its width also

again just my opinion

It's a fair point you make but just not workable in practice. If you think the 16 NRL coaches have missed something as simple as a "deep backline play" you are just not giving them enough credit.

To say that an organised moden defence is susceptible to a "deep backline play" is like saying a 1996 Camry will win an F1 race.

Deep backline plays are "out" plays; that is they are an attempt to get outside your defender and burn them with speed, and the big weakness is they only target the stronger outside shoulder of the defender. Bigger/Mobile bodies are able to cover these sideline to sideline shifts pretty easy (there is a reason the old saying is you have to go forward before you go sideways).
The reason deep backline plays have evolved into block plays is that a block play is essentially a deep backline play but the inserted short lead runners give extra options in that they run "in" lines that target the defenders weaker inside shoulder, opening up space on the outside.

And if you want to talk about adaptability and "playing what is in front of you" there are few better at it than JT, Milford and.......... BEN BARBA. Watch him chime into a backline play and adjust it according to the space in front of him.

 

[Birdee_Num_Num]

It's a fair point you make but just not workable in practice. If you think the 16 NRL coaches have missed something as simple as a "deep backline play" you are just not giving them enough credit.

To say that an organised moden defence is susceptible to a "deep backline play" is like saying a 1996 Camry will win an F1 race.

Deep backline plays are "out" plays; that is they are an attempt to get outside your defender and burn them with speed, and the big weakness is they only target the stronger outside shoulder of the defender. Bigger/Mobile bodies are able to cover these sideline to sideline shifts pretty easy (there is a reason the old saying is you have to go forward before you go sideways).
The reason deep backline plays have evolved into block plays is that a block play is essentially a deep backline play but the inserted short lead runners give extra options in that they run "in" lines that target the defenders weaker inside shoulder, opening up space on the outside.

And if you want to talk about adaptability and "playing what is in front of you" there are few better at it than JT, Milford and.......... BEN BARBA. Watch him chime into a backline play and adjust it according to the space in front of him.

i dont think its a case of anyone missing anything, it think coaches are too scared to buck the trend / put their balls on the line to try something new for fear of never getting a gig again if it goes pear shaped or for fear of ridicule amongst their peers

love or loathe the guy, bellamy has been the most influencial figure in coaching in the last 10 years for shaping how the game is now played, once upon a time his tactics werent the status quo, not that I agree with every aspect of the tactics he engages, but he is a guy who did buck the trend and tried new things

the game is stuck in a laborious cycle of copy cat tactics, the game is not evolving, first and fore most the game is about entertainment and this grind out a win shit is killing the game, its boring football, thats why fans dont turn up

i went to the all stars game at the start of the year and i can tell you that was the most boring shitty ass game ive ever sat through, i could have easily walked out, the game was played in the spirit of a mid season nrl game, just grind it out, keep on grinding...for what reason? fans what some excitement, it was really disappointing

this is where the coaches reputation is put far above anything else in terms of importance, win at all costs no matter how ugly

anyway im leaving it there mate, appreciate the chat, ive learnt some stuff

still think a deep well structure backline play has got you covered :lol:

 

[bluefox1968]

i

i went to the all stars game at the start of the year and i can tell you that was the most boring ... game ive ever sat through, i could have easily walked out, the game was played in the spirit of a mid season nrl game, just grind it out, keep on grinding...for what reason? fans what some excitement, it was really disappointing

:lol:

Ha - yes, I was there, too. It WAS really disappointing - so many players could've done amazing things, but it just didn't happen!

Barba went close - he was showing signs then of what we're starting to see now, and that was playing at 6...!

 

[2012....Sharks Year]

Faarrkk.....who needs sleeping pills when you have this thread!

 

[shaggs]

When do we get the "should yorston replace capewell after he replaces Beale when he finally replaces bird via replacing leutele at left centre" thread.
That is when the messiah will rise.

 

[2012....Sharks Year]

When do we get the "should yorston replace capewell after he replaces Beale when he finally replaces bird via replacing leutele at left centre" thread.
That is when the messiah will rise.

Lol....but you left out Moroko!!!!!!

 

[Vin Fizz]

Love the info in this thread. Feel thoroughly edumicated now. It's an interesting comparison for this dumb ass. The difference between structure that gets the team into the position on the field in the attacking zone where they can put their plays on versus what I would describe as unstructured play. Sounds like there is no such thing as the latter anymore despite it looking so to the RL uneducted (that'd be me). Sounds like Side Line Eye is back