Spread of League in England

[bowes]

Luton? I dunno. Luton Town averaged gates of 7,000 last year in the 5th division. Now, that's either a sign of a town that really gets behind their team, or a sign of a town where other sports are doomed to fail. Their 10,000 stadium isn't in the greatest of shapes either.

Portsmouth/Brighton is something though, only because St Marys in Southampton is too big, whereas Fratton Park and the new Brighton and Hove stadium are both potentially good SL grounds (20,000 and 22,000 respectively). Plus Portsmouth is almost as big as Southampton isn't it?

Portsmouth's soccer club are likely to fold soon. That could allow a good market gap to break, but it may also mean the ground gets taken over by developers or the RL club would have to fund it itself which wouldn't be viable

 

[WireMan]

I did think St Helens was separate from Liverpool - but just not too far. Sort of like Penrith, Cambelltown/Camden, even Wollongong, have a bit of separation space before you get to them - though much to my horror this is getting eaten up now.

I do get mucked up with the whole Lancashire thing - what I had in my mind as Lancashire now seems different to the current reality.
The mind set between Aust and England regarding travel is completely different though. I used to be on a St Helens forum a bit and there was an unholy row about a final against Wigan (pie-eaters I hear!) being played at Bolton. The distance being much too much to contemplate etc. I had a look and it seemed to be around 50-80ks. (You guys can fill me in). I go to all the St George Illawarra home games - both grounds are 50ks from home, the SFS would be 70 odd. Work each day is just over 50ks (eachway).
Would I travel that far to a final? Absolutely.

Re Manchester/Salford: one of my ancestors was supposedly from Manchester, but I note that he was sentenced at Salford Court. I guess that re-inforced my thought that it was like an outer suburb/city. Here, Parramatta, Bankstown etc etc have had City status granted over the years but are still 'Sydney'. This probably also creates a wrong impression in the minds of Sydney-siders when thinking of the English situation.

Salford is an inner city suburb of Manchester. It just happens to be a seperate city (5 mins walk from the city centre).

If saints were due to be the home team i can see there complaints about Bolton as you have to go through Wigan to get there from St Helens. The home team would lose there advantage.

What do you wanna know about Lancashire? Ask away.

 

[RedVee]

Salford is an inner city suburb of Manchester. It just happens to be a seperate city (5 mins walk from the city centre).

If saints were due to be the home team i can see there complaints about Bolton as you have to go through Wigan to get there from St Helens. The home team would lose there advantage.

What do you wanna know about Lancashire? Ask away.

Well, I also thought Manchester and the surrounding areas (even the Liverpool area) were part of Lancashire?
and that Yorkshire basically came right over and bordered onto Lancashire?
I didn't realise that Manchester rated as a county in its own right, or that merseyside existed except as a colloquial term for the area.
I think basing my education on English counties via the world of cricket may have been a youthful mistake! Although I worked with a bloke 20something years ago who I'm sure said he was from Manchester & Lancashire when people asked him if he was from Yorkshire.
I may have to change my nick to 'Deluded Dragon'.

Isn't the home of Lancashire in cricket at Old Trafford? Manchester?

 

[bowes]

In traditional counties yes most of the Manchester and Liverpool areas are Lancashire (some is Cheshire). However, for administrative purposes big cities and towns were ran independent from the county and called county councils, some counties like Yorkshire were run by several county councils (North Riding, West Riding, East Riding, York plus about 10-15 county boroughs).

In 1974 they changed the counties for administrative functions and created Greater Manchester and Merseyside among others, but in something like 1985 or 1986 these 2 counties and the other metropolitan counties got scrapped and things run by individual boroughs (more changes happened in the 90s and last year in various parts of the country). So yes it's Lancashire if you go by tradition, but now Manchester, Salford etc run themselves again and Greater Manchester has been scrapped twice as long as it ever existed but people still refer to it

 

[deluded pom?]

Mancs and Scousers are Lancastrians. Here's another quirk for you RedVee, I believe there's only one rugby league team in Lancashire (as the boundaries are now drawn). Can you guess which one it is? Please let him answer this himself fellow Poms.

 

[WireMan]

In traditional counties yes most of the Manchester and Liverpool areas are Lancashire (some is Cheshire). However, for administrative purposes big cities and towns were ran independent from the county and called county councils, some counties like Yorkshire were run by several county councils (North Riding, West Riding, East Riding, York plus about 10-15 county boroughs).

In 1974 they changed the counties for administrative functions and created Greater Manchester and Merseyside among others, but in something like 1985 or 1986 these 2 counties and the other metropolitan counties got scrapped and things run by individual boroughs (more changes happened in the 90s and last year in various parts of the country). So yes it's Lancashire if you go by tradition, but now Manchester, Salford etc run themselves again and Greater Manchester has been scrapped twice as long as it ever existed but people still refer to it

All good stuff, you see Redvee its real simple... :sarcasm:

The old boundary was the river Mersey. Then it moved to the Manchester ship canal. Anything above that was Lancashire (and the North), anything below is Cheshire (the South). I throw these places in so you can google map (or anyother internet map provider) them if you interested.

Interesting that south of the river the big Rugby team are Sale Sharks rugby union. You gotta love the North-South Divide!

When Gtr Manc and Merseyside were formed, Wigan and St Helens joined these new counties. The Counties touched around Newton-Le-Willows seperating Widnes and Warrington from Lancashire so they both had to join Cheshire.

The split between Lancashire and Yorkshire is easier. Manchester has never, and will never be in Yorkshire. There is a big (for England standards) mountain range between the two counties.

 

[roughyedspud]

come too oldham,the lancs/yorkshire debate is never out of the "letters to the editor" page in the localpaper.....saddleworth,which makes up about 50% of the area of the metropolitian borough of oldham, used to be yorkshire...prior to 1974 the old lancs/yorks boundary was 100yard behind my house..and throughout my formative years at saddleworth secondary school i'm ashamed to say i donned the white rose on my school blazer....

 

[RedVee]

Thanks guys. Clear as mud!

Mancs and Scousers are Lancastrians. Here's another quirk for you RedVee, I believe there's only one rugby league team in Lancashire (as the boundaries are now drawn). Can you guess which one it is? Please let him answer this himself fellow Poms.

Ok - there must be a trick here! I'm assuming that the Crusaders aren't actually in Lancs. . So, are we talking ESL? or might they be in a lower level now? I'm guessing the latter. So, I'm thinking it'd something like Widnes, one of those old teams, maybe not - hmmm - no idea, how about Kieghly Cougars?

All good stuff, you see Redvee its real simple... :sarcasm:

The old boundary was the river Mersey. Then it moved to the Manchester ship canal. Anything above that was Lancashire (and the North), anything below is Cheshire (the South). I throw these places in so you can google map (or anyother internet map provider) them if you interested.

Interesting that south of the river the big Rugby team are Sale Sharks rugby union. You gotta love the North-South Divide!

When Gtr Manc and Merseyside were formed, Wigan and St Helens joined these new counties. The Counties touched around Newton-Le-Willows seperating Widnes and Warrington from Lancashire so they both had to join Cheshire.

The split between Lancashire and Yorkshire is easier. Manchester has never, and will never be in Yorkshire. There is a big (for England standards) mountain range between the two counties.

The Penines? (James Herriot books)

 

[Daveyboy]

They changed the law so non-Kolpaks getting paid for sport have to get a full sports visa not a work/leisure one which is hard to get. Don't think they've ever paid much

Yeah i know about it, but what i said is true they dont have the finances to do it anymore, also there is a big push for local players (which there should be anyway).

I know a couple players who claim to get 200+/week from them. Which im sure compared to up North, whcih i havent tried yet isnt a great deal, but 200 in back pocket on top of work....

I hope JM turns them around, whoever said earlier that they want to be a SL club (Skolars), your way off course, they couldnt pull off even they wanted to, trust me.

The requirements for SL are way beyond them, their stadium doesnt even meet the criteria i believe, they fall short on crowds, cash, junior set up..almost all the cats. Heck there is even a catergory about not having a club within 20 miles of you...i dont know the distance between Quins and Skolars, but it isnt a massive distance.

The Olympic stadium...just not happening, lovely lovely thought, and id buy a ticket every game just to go...and its just down the road from me as well. But we couldnt pull off the money needed to run it, ticket prices would be too high for people. Id love to see it, but lets keep our feet on the ground for now.

As for want move out of London to MK or Oxford Bowes....again a novel idea and in the short term...sure it probably would increase attendence, but your leaving yourself open to a 'shelf' in regard to attendance. If we could just put on a show for London, get them talking about it, we could get 20k to games, maybe more...maybe it has to be more than just the RL...maybe there needs to be entertainment as well..a spectacle of sorts. London has no 'shelf' if i can call it that, especially with the amount of Aussies and kiwis we have here. If we can get to the 10k mark..get some press, metro etc...get people saying 'yeah game was ok (for those not into it of course but atmosphere and everything else was awesome' people would take a punt and have a look. If you crack this London myth...its sorted. Im not sure about Quins...they lack their 'own' identity.

Interesting how this thread has gone on.

 

[parrawentyfan]

From memory, Swansea has always got excellent rugby league crowds
(thinking around 15,000 for the World Cup matches). It also has a good sized stadium. I've wondered why a Welsh team isn't based there (or at least stage a handful of games to test the water.

 

[deluded pom?]

Thanks guys. Clear as mud!



Ok - there must be a trick here! I'm assuming that the Crusaders aren't actually in Lancs. . So, are we talking ESL? or might they be in a lower level now? I'm guessing the latter. So, I'm thinking it'd something like Widnes, one of those old teams, maybe not - hmmm - no idea, how about Kieghly Cougars?

No trick. Crusaders are based in Wales. Definitely NOT Lancashire. Not even England. Wireman has explained that Widnes is in Cheshire. Keighley is in Yorkshire. Yes, it is a lower league team that has just lost ten points for financial irregularities ;-)

 

[deluded pom?]

come too oldham,the lancs/yorkshire debate is never out of the "letters to the editor" page in the localpaper.....saddleworth,which makes up about 50% of the area of the metropolitian borough of oldham, used to be yorkshire....

Thieving Lancastrian gits.

prior to 1974 the old lancs/yorks boundary was 100yard behind my house..and throughout my formative years at saddleworth secondary school i'm delighted to say i donned the white rose on my school blazer ....

God that must have been a proud moment for you 'spud?

 

[RedVee]

No trick. Crusaders are based in Wales. Definitely NOT Lancashire. Not even England. Wireman has explained that Widnes is in Cheshire. Keighley is in Yorkshire. Yes, it is a lower league team that has just lost ten points for financial irregularities ;-)

Blackpool?

come too oldham,the lancs/yorkshire debate is never out of the "letters to the editor" page in the localpaper.....saddleworth,which makes up about 50% of the area of the metropolitian borough of oldham, used to be yorkshire...prior to 1974 the old lancs/yorks boundary was 100yard behind my house..and throughout my formative years at saddleworth secondary school i'm ashamed to say i donned the white rose on my school blazer....

Yep, the bloke I used to work with used to burr up constantly because every Aussie that met him said "So, are you from Yorkshire?".....

 

[deluded pom?]

Blackpool?

That's the one.

Yep, the bloke I used to work with used to burr up constantly because every Aussie that met him said "So, are you from Yorkshire?".....

Yorkshire is obviously more well known than Wankashire :lol: ;-)

 

[bowes]

Blackpool?

Yes, but when they played in Blackpool itself they weren't in Lancashire (in the mid 90s it got taken out), but now they play in the Fylde which is just outside Blackpool and confusingly is in Lancashire. Blackburn with Darwen also got taken out the same sort of time

Cheshire has been scrapped and there's 4 boroughs in its place: Halton (Widnes and Runcorn more or less), Warrington, East Cheshire and West Cheshire & Chester

 

[deluded pom?]

Simples.

 

[bowes]

From memory, Swansea has always got excellent rugby league crowds
(thinking around 15,000 for the World Cup matches). It also has a good sized stadium. I've wondered why a Welsh team isn't based there (or at least stage a handful of games to test the water.

There's actually no amateur club there either, all efforts to establish one have failed.

But South Wales Scorpions play in Neath which is very near Swansea. If they ever try to get into Super League (a fairly long way off yet, though not impossible in the medium term) their current ground is too small so they might then play in Swansea I'd have thought.

I'd like to see them in a licensed expanded Championship from 2012, but whether this happens depends on whether a unified league structure can be achieved so that the excluded semi-pro clubs (I'd have thought definitely London Skolars, Gateshead, Blackpool and Doncaster and probably some others like Swinton depending on the size) would still have somewhere suitable to play

 

[RedVee]

Yes, but when they played in Blackpool itself they weren't in Lancashire (in the mid 90s it got taken out), but now they play in the Fylde which is just outside Blackpool and confusingly is in Lancashire. Blackburn with Darwen also got taken out the same sort of time

Cheshire has been scrapped and there's 4 boroughs in its place: Halton (Widnes and Runcorn more or less), Warrington, East Cheshire and West Cheshire & Chester

Hell. :?

No wonder you guys scrapped the 'War of the Roses' Origin style games - Nobody plays in Lancashire anymore!

 

[deluded pom?]

Have you got your head around it yet RV? ;-)

 

[RedVee]

Ha, I think so.

But I think I prefer a traditional if only ceremonial concept of the counties rather than changing them all the time. That could be achieved at another level for financial and local administration control.
Anyway, while it matters naught what I think - I'll take Lanacashire with a dash of Manchester and Liverpool.