Spread of League in England

[Old Darlin]

liverpool have had rugby league sides in the past - manchester has had up to three teams at one time (broughton, salford, swinton) - so most of the points re- those cities are redundant -

 

[WireMan]

Same here. Such a small country that England, hard to imagine 52 million people living in the size of one of our states. Any suburb in Sydney could be its own little town in England!

Yup, and by default your little town would be better than the hicksville other towns (and vice versa).

I thought Salford/St Helens were part of the Manchester/Liverpool urban areas? Because Penrith would be exactly like that with Sydney, just part of the greater urban area of Sydney. Even if by English standards its it own place outside of the city centre. Like with Manchester, the population is something like 400,000, yet its urban area is 2.5 mill or something. Sydney would have a population of couple of hundred thousand with an urban area of 5 mil.

They are. Salford is in greater Manchester (like Wigan) and St Helens is in Merseyside. However they were only put there when the boundaries were changed for government admin reasons. They are all seperate Lancashire towns and cities really.

The people from these places don't want to be swallowed up by the big two cities so become very defensive over place names and boundaries. Salford is actually a city in its own right and is older than Manchester! Warrington went one step further and became part of the Cheshire poncy set to keep its independance. Not like those two sell out places to the North (Wigan/Saints)!

It does make sense though. It's much easier when our entire country is basically made up of large urban areas. It would be like if Englands entire population lived in London, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, and Newcastle urban areas exclusively. I think its fascinating the entire country is populated. I imagine it would be really fun driving around England, and every 20 minutes coming across a new town in whichever direction you went, unlike the time my family drove from Melbourne to Sydney - a 10 hour journey of nothing but barren landscape.

It would be fascinating for you in all honesty. Not only do you come across a new town but the accents completely change, attitudes change and the scenery changes.

 

[Daveyboy]

The dream would be the Scorpions in South Wales, a second team in London and a second team in France. Out of them IMO a second London team is least likely. The others have potential. It would create a real rivalry in the countries. I think a swap of either Wakey or Cas for Widnes is on the cards. Anything else then would be an expansion in the true sense of the word.

Out of interest, what plots of land you thinking? Current grounds? Loftus Road? Sellhurst park? Olympic Stadium? I don't know much about the geography of London so they are guesses. For all i know they are harder to get ot than the Stoop!!

I don't agree about Scotland. I think Cunbria is more likely. Scotland can't get crowds for Union or even Football outside of the old firm.

Interesting what you say about Manc and Scouseland. It would be nice to have teams in those areas but i doubt it will happen. Football is just to big. Its fun to throw ideas out there though!!

Yes i agree on the Scorpions...i know a few of them too after coaching the Steelers for a season. It can work, but Union is such a way fo life. I know the RFL guys who have been working over there and they say they have never been in a tougher situation trying to grow League.

A second team is France is a definite, will happen. There is good money in Union over there and no reason why we couldnt have a slice of that action.

Scotland, yeah i agree with you..dont see it, not for now, but i do see it in the future. They played in the World Cup (if i can call it that) and with a few 'magic weekends' up there, we could see Edinburgh in about 5 years.

A second team in London can happen, as for the plots of land, i cant discuss sorry! I dont know who is reading this and who may try snap it up before people i know that are trying. But there are a couple plots, one even with a stand on it that hasnt been used in some time. Considering the side of London that the Quins are, there is scope for one somewhere on the other side of town.

 

[deluded pom?]

To confuse things even more, Manchester United don't play in Manchester but in Trafford. They also stole the Red Devils nickname from Salford ;-) Oh, and Warrington is now populated by overspill Scousers. ;-)

 

[WireMan]

To confuse things even more, Manchester United don't play in Manchester but in Trafford. They also stole the Red Devils nickname from Salford ;-) Oh, and Warrington is now populated by overspill Scousers. ;-)

I'm not going to bite at that one!!!

I would say (becasue it furthers the point about seperate identities) its half full of overspill scousers, and half full of overspill mancs! That makes United vs Liverpool matches a lot of fun in the town centre. Also explains why proper Warringtonians are/were so determined not to to join either Gtr Manc or Merseyside (despite being on the side of the Mersey!!)
Same in every other town in the area. Those two cities are like two shadows stretching over the land in the best Lord of the rings fashion!!

As for the Red Devils your right, Sir Matt heard Salford being called that and "borrowed" the nickname.

 

[WireMan]

Yes i agree on the Scorpions...i know a few of them too after coaching the Steelers for a season. It can work, but Union is such a way fo life. I know the RFL guys who have been working over there and they say they have never been in a tougher situation trying to grow League.

A second team is France is a definite, will happen. There is good money in Union over there and no reason why we couldnt have a slice of that action.

Scotland, yeah i agree with you..dont see it, not for now, but i do see it in the future. They played in the World Cup (if i can call it that) and with a few 'magic weekends' up there, we could see Edinburgh in about 5 years.

A second team in London can happen, as for the plots of land, i cant discuss sorry! I dont know who is reading this and who may try snap it up before people i know that are trying. But there are a couple plots, one even with a stand on it that hasnt been used in some time. Considering the side of London that the Quins are, there is scope for one somewhere on the other side of town.

Ok, I won't press for details. The only reason i said a second London team is unlikely is that the current one isn't doing that well. If someone can develop a ground for league they may as well move the current mob in there, change the name etc. but keep the players and backroom staff currently there. Might be easier.

 

[Teddyboy]

Same here. Such a small country that England, hard to imagine 52 million people living in the size of one of our states. Any suburb in Sydney could be its own little town in England!



I thought Salford/St Helens were part of the Manchester/Liverpool urban areas? Because Penrith would be exactly like that with Sydney, just part of the greater urban area of Sydney. Even if by English standards its it own place outside of the city centre. Like with Manchester, the population is something like 400,000, yet its urban area is 2.5 mill or something. Sydney would have a population of couple of hundred thousand with an urban area of 5 mil.

It does make sense though. It's much easier when our entire country is basically made up of large urban areas. It would be like if Englands entire population lived in London, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, and Newcastle urban areas exclusively. I think its fascinating the entire country is populated. I imagine it would be really fun driving around England, and every 20 minutes coming across a new town in whichever direction you went, unlike the time my family drove from Melbourne to Sydney - a 10 hour journey of nothing but barren landscape.

Yeah i found from Sydney to the Gold Coast barren landscape apart from Newcastle.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Any chance Skolars or Storm could move into the Olympic stadium after the games in 2012?

It's being reduced to 25k or something isn't it?

 

[VictoryFC]

Any chance Skolars or Storm could move into the Olympic stadium after the games in 2012?

It's being reduced to 25k or something isn't it?

Depends. If West Ham doesn't move in, then 25,000 will more than likely be the capacity. If West Ham does move in, it will probably be around 55,000. On Monday though, Westfield, who will have a shopping centre at the entrance of the site, said that they have started working with West Ham FC and Newham city council on their bid, which has been seen as a major boost to WH (source: Guardian).

 

[bowes]

Any chance Skolars or Storm could move into the Olympic stadium after the games in 2012?

It's being reduced to 25k or something isn't it?

Do you have any idea how small those clubs are? Think putting an A grade side in a 25000 capacity stadium I guess. Plus Storm are nowhere near the Olympic stadium whatsoever so would kill the point of them as a South London side, the part of London you're in is hugely divisive.

 

[bowes]

Is it? Outside of England playing every now and then, how popular is cricket really? I've been reading about the "crown jewels" being protected by FTA, and it constantly seems like journos are saying that cricket internationals being on pay-tv would cripple the game over there. Without a club game as a foundation, sports are vulnerable to being irrelevant/relevant on and off depending on success. Out of curiosity how many people really care about Lancashire cricket or whatever? Its a bit like state cricket here; its fairly irrelevant.

Thats the plus League and Union in comparison to sports like golf, tennis, cricket etc.

As a participation sport it's very popular, a lot of people watch test matches on television but county is tiny. Having said that rugby league is pretty much non-existant in Liverpool and Manchester (the cities not the urban areas), aside from one amateur club in each, plus the juniors in Liverpool, and few people would go watch the SL sides unless they're from those towns (very few people watch Salford full stop), so it would be a lot lower than 3rd, RU is bigger for example.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

Do you have any idea how small those clubs are? Think putting an A grade side in a 25000 capacity stadium I guess. Plus Storm are nowhere near the Olympic stadium whatsoever so would kill the point of them as a South London side, the part of London you're in is hugely divisive.

It's got nothing to do with how big or small they are, it's about building for the future and if the stadium is there and a London based club want to climb up the divisions and make something of themselves, why shouldn't they?

And what about Quins going there?

For gods sake you come across as a downer on RL at times.

Depends. If West Ham doesn't move in, then 25,000 will more than likely be the capacity. If West Ham does move in, it will probably be around 55,000. On Monday though, Westfield, who will have a shopping centre at the entrance of the site, said that they have started working with West Ham FC and Newham city council on their bid, which has been seen as a major boost to WH (source: Guardian).

Cheers for the info without the doom and gloom like others seemed to be filled with.

No offence bowes, but cheer up mate, for the game to go forward, teams and clubs need to move forward and us as fans need to move forward with them.

 

[deluded pom?]

Ok, I won't press for details. The only reason i said a second London team is unlikely is that the current one isn't doing that well. If someone can develop a ground for league they may as well move the current mob in there, change the name etc. but keep the players and backroom staff currently there. Might be easier.

Wouldn't the logical step to be to have a rugby league only stadium with two teams playing out of it? Preferably two SLE teams. But that's one for the future.

 

[Teddyboy]

Do you have any idea how small those clubs are? Think putting an A grade side in a 25000 capacity stadium I guess. Plus Storm are nowhere near the Olympic stadium whatsoever so would kill the point of them as a South London side, the part of London you're in is hugely divisive.

Yeah it's a sh*thole alright and the Skolars get crowds of around 300.

 

[bowes]

It's got nothing to do with how big or small they are, it's about building for the future and if the stadium is there and a London based club want to climb up the divisions and make something of themselves, why shouldn't they?

And what about Quins going there?

For gods sake you come across as a downer on RL at times.




Cheers for the info without the doom and gloom like others seemed to be filled with.

No offence bowes, but cheer up mate, for the game to go forward, teams and clubs need to move forward and us as fans need to move forward with them.

FFS Skolars get 300 crowds, win 1 game a year at 3rd tier and play in a 1000 capacity stadium. Where on Earth would they get the money for a 25000 stadium's rent and why would they need it? You'd have to be a lunatic or grossly ignorant to think I'm being negative in this assessment of them not needing a 25000 capacity stadium. There'd building for the future and there's pure insanity in the greatest level. If they really wanted to invest in the future they'd be best off slowly building up where they are rather than bankrupting themselves horrifically by spending several times their turnover on stadium rent alone (turnover maybe £200,000-300,000 tops). What other club in a million years would rent a state with a capacity ONE HUNDRED TIMES their average crowds.

I can see some kind of logic in Quins but I think the London market is pretty saturated with soccer, all RU clubs bar Harlequins have had to leave or drop down the divisions. Even then 25000 is far too much for what they need.

Best to move Harlequins to somewhere like Oxford or Milton Keynes where crowds would double (still not particularly large but viable) and the rent would be much lower but there'd still be a pathway for London juniors and the Skolars could be what South Wales Scorpions are to the Crusaders.

No sport bar soccer and Harlequins RU gets crowds in London, basketball's failed 4 times and ice hockey twice to quote 2 other sports played professionally in the UK (which outside the north are bigger than RL in the case of basketball and comparable in the case of ice hockey, obviously RL wins hand down when you include the north)

London Skolars is a bad brand as London has no collective identity (very parochial plus it takes 2 hours to get from side to side, just down the road for an Aussie, but somewhere a Londoner wouldn't travel) so they should emphasise their local area more (whether Haringey or North London is up for debate) and get a better brand than Skolars which dates back to them being a graduates club hardly appealing for a pro club. Long term best to invest in various local clubs for different bits of London to provide pathways for development (most junior development is South or East, or outside London in Hertfordshire) at an intermediate level rather than trying and failing to attract players to one 'London' club (that soccer doesn't have). Short term best to focus on a good league for amateur sides outside the north and carry on investing in juniors.

 

[bowes]

Wouldn't the logical step to be to have a rugby league only stadium with two teams playing out of it? Preferably two SLE teams. But that's one for the future.

Best to invest in teams in different bits of London, 2 clubs in one stadium is pointless in somewhere like London, works better in cities with a more central identity like Sydney (and even then doesn't seem to be universally popular)

 

[Daveyboy]

I went for an interview to be on the Skolars coaching staff. I didnt get it and maybe in a way im happy i didnt. The club is in serious trouble, they use to bring in and play aussies but now cant afford them, but in return they are now developing more home grown talent. Funny story, i sat down with the coach for my interview and he explained what they got etc...the field is short, the '10m' mark each side halfway is actually only 5-6m...making it easier to kick a 40/20...this is what i brought up..asked him how many they kicked last season....none and he didnt even looked bothered by it. Thats when i started to seem less interested in the interview. JM is their new coach now, he is ok but they are fighting a bad rep in RL circles...tough times. They do get overflow Quins lads though.

They have played so porrly and come last for so many years even the local talent go and plays for other teams. Some of their local juniors come play for us and we are an hour and half away, pretty sad really.

Quins are doing better of course. What i dont like is the fact that if i stopped someone on the street and asked them if they knew who the Quins are...they would tell the Union team. They need their own identity.

Olympic stadium.....novel idea and would to say it is possible, but not at he moment. RL is growing and getting a bigger part of the market, i know this first handd, but we couldnt fill the olympic stadium. In order for RL to get a good grip it must be done through the juniors and schools. Start influcing the next generations.

 

[RedVee]

I did think St Helens was separate from Liverpool - but just not too far. Sort of like Penrith, Cambelltown/Camden, even Wollongong, have a bit of separation space before you get to them - though much to my horror this is getting eaten up now.

I do get mucked up with the whole Lancashire thing - what I had in my mind as Lancashire now seems different to the current reality.
The mind set between Aust and England regarding travel is completely different though. I used to be on a St Helens forum a bit and there was an unholy row about a final against Wigan (pie-eaters I hear!) being played at Bolton. The distance being much too much to contemplate etc. I had a look and it seemed to be around 50-80ks. (You guys can fill me in). I go to all the St George Illawarra home games - both grounds are 50ks from home, the SFS would be 70 odd. Work each day is just over 50ks (eachway).
Would I travel that far to a final? Absolutely.

Re Manchester/Salford: one of my ancestors was supposedly from Manchester, but I note that he was sentenced at Salford Court. I guess that re-inforced my thought that it was like an outer suburb/city. Here, Parramatta, Bankstown etc etc have had City status granted over the years but are still 'Sydney'. This probably also creates a wrong impression in the minds of Sydney-siders when thinking of the English situation.

 

[ParraEelsNRL]

FFS Skolars get 300 crowds, win 1 game a year at 3rd tier and play in a 1000 capacity stadium. Where on Earth would they get the money for a 25000 stadium's rent and why would they need it? You'd have to be a lunatic or grossly ignorant to think I'm being negative in this assessment of them not needing a 25000 capacity stadium. There'd building for the future and there's pure insanity in the greatest level. If they really wanted to invest in the future they'd be best off slowly building up where they are rather than bankrupting themselves horrifically by spending several times their turnover on stadium rent alone (turnover maybe £200,000-300,000 tops). What other club in a million years would rent a state with a capacity ONE HUNDRED TIMES their average crowds.

Did I say move them in straight away?

No I bloody well didn't, right!

And what is wrong with them or any other London based club building up over the years until they feel they can move into a bigger ground?

Give yourself a triple. :x

I can see some kind of logic in Quins but I think the London market is pretty saturated with soccer, all RU clubs bar Harlequins have had to leave or drop down the divisions. Even then 25000 is far too much for what they need.

So just give up eh?

I mean, it's no use to have any team in any country to to get bigger,better tell spinner in America to give up as only established teams with a 100 years support deserve to play in the big time even if their 100 years worth of support is sh*t.

Best to move Harlequins to somewhere like Oxford or Milton Keynes where crowds would double (still not particularly large but viable) and the rent would be much lower but there'd still be a pathway for London juniors and the Skolars could be what South Wales Scorpions are to the Crusaders.

That's why I said Skolars, Storm or some other London based club :roll:

No sport bar soccer and Harlequins RU gets crowds in London, basketball's failed 4 times and ice hockey twice to quote 2 other sports played professionally in the UK (which outside the north are bigger than RL in the case of basketball and comparable in the case of ice hockey, obviously RL wins hand down when you include the north)

I don't care what other sports are around and I think it's about time many in our own game started doing the same thing.

It's ok for all these other sports to move into our heartlands, yet if RL decides to even attempt moving out of its box, the sh*t hits the fan for some reason.

We have a bloody great game, how about people back it just for once.

London Skolars is a bad brand as London has no collective identity (very parochial plus it takes 2 hours to get from side to side, just down the road for an Aussie, but somewhere a Londoner wouldn't travel) so they should emphasise their local area more (whether Haringey or North London is up for debate) and get a better brand than Skolars which dates back to them being a graduates club hardly appealing for a pro club. Long term best to invest in various local clubs for different bits of London to provide pathways for development (most junior development is South or East, or outside London in Hertfordshire) at an intermediate level rather than trying and failing to attract players to one 'London' club (that soccer doesn't have). Short term best to focus on a good league for amateur sides outside the north and carry on investing in juniors.

As I said, any london based team, it doesn't have to be one that is playing now, it could be another that comes along in the future.

As you said above, the team wins one game a year and still get 3/400 a match, well how about getting that right and start winning?

I'm sure a few seasons of winning footy will see the crowds grow by a few hundred.

By 2012/13 they could be averaging 800 if they are smart and everyone knows that a winning team will bring in more fans. You keep the team competitive over the next decade and god knows where the support will be, it could be sh*t still, yet it could blow you away.

Every team has a right to want to better themselves, it's just a pity RL in England and Australia is filled with flatcappers.

 

[VictoryFC]

I agree with ParraEels; it's ok to be realistic about what the sporting landscape is like in England, but to outright reject any forward thinking is a tad bizarre.

If West Ham doesn't move in, why wouldn't they want extra match days at the venue, especially if it continues on as an athletics venue. The rent would be tailored to what a RL can afford, that much is obvious.

We have a new 31,000, $250mil stadium in Melbourne, for League, soccer and a union team who at this point in time are all likely to kick off their first season in the stadium well below capacity. But the potential for growth is there.

That is one noticeable difference between England and Australia, in that sports clubs over there seem to have to justify the size of their stadium. If they're not filling it out, they don't deserve it! We have massive stadiums that are less than half capacity most of the time. Over there clubs are a laughing stock if they are 2-3000 below capacity (from my experience mingling with soccer fans).

From what I understand there are a lot of interested parties: Skolars in their bid to be a SL club, 2 union teams, 2 soccer teams, and a cricket team. So no shortage of takers. I imagine though that if the Olympic committee or whoever are interested in keeping that track, and reducing capacity to 25,000 that Skolars and Leyton Orient would be right up there, even if it means moving Skolars from North London, especially because Wasps/Saracens would be foolish to move. Skolars would have nothing to lose. But yes, England's insistence on filling capacities might quash any aspirations.