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Steve Renouf endures racial abuse throughout career at Brisbane

Whip Whitaker

Juniors
Messages
808
Basically loony right thinking that suggests there has been top level and cultural infiltration of (insert group you dont like here) to alter the status quo of what they consider "normal" or that somehow diminishes their privileged position. Be it Islam using refugees to change western values, gays in the media changing marriage and normal sexuality, blacks in BLM making white people feel bad, Jews in Hollywood destroying christian values etc etc. Pick your poison, apply hatred and away you go..........

Check out my post above mate. BUt you don't have to agree.
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
44,953
Check out my post above mate. BUt you don't have to agree.

Yes saw it, and I dont :)
Capitalism is interesting, especially when you consider some of the recorded happiest people in the world are living in poverty or low income. Is it a false measurement we have been sold by those who stand to gain the most? When you measure your success/happiness by the size of your TV you can afford rather than the quality of your relationships, the care and consideration you give to others or how much good you can for the world then capitalism makes perfect sense. But when you look at levels of unhappiness, loneliness, suicide, divorce etc and see they are highest in the most capitalistic countries it does make you wonder if we've been sold a pup?

re the current statue thing, most of these men became rich and powerful and thats why they have a statue. Some of them did terrible things to get that wealth and power. I have no problem with us re-looking at history through a contextual lens of today and deciding if these are the people we should put up as monuments to human history. Human history is full of incredible men and women who have contributed to the betterment of other people and the planet, more statues of those people might be better to celebrate our past and guide our future?
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
10,319
Here's a way of putting it:

Many people don't hate capitalism in a pure sense because we've gained advantage by it, or saw the dangers of international socialism and or communism.

So how do the left come up with a way to make more people turn on the Capitalist Elite and our History? Use other methods/weapons to achieve their means, including identity politics, and campaigns such as Black Lives Matter.

One thing I will say, however, is that Cultural Marxism is so clever, and so greatly designed, that most people, even many on the left, think it is a ridiculous theory invented by Right Wingers, and give enough no careful consideration. Likewise, many on the Right probably haven't given the theory much thought as they are now being seduced and deceived by ideas like Black Lives Matter, and inadvertently shifting to the Left.

Notice how this happens a lot? We are removing statues of everybody in our past because they were slave owners or slave traders or colonial rulers whatever mistake we can attribute them to. It seems the attack is aimed at individuals for having a poor moral record. But it is actually an attack on capitalism, and attempt to re-write a new world order. These attacks also miss valuable context about the good things in history. We want to pretend history was only full of mass genocide, rape, bigotry, colonialism and every other horror imaginable etc. There is a lot of good in history that gets overlooked because we are so cleverly being deceived to only acknowledge the bad, and then hate our ancestors for it.

Wow...you're good. Spot on again.
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
25,520
Yes saw it, and I dont :)
Capitalism is interesting, especially when you consider some of the recorded happiest people in the world are living in poverty or low income. Is it a false measurement we have been sold by those who stand to gain the most? When you measure your success/happiness by the size of your TV you can afford rather than the quality of your relationships, the care and consideration you give to others or how much good you can for the world then capitalism makes perfect sense. But when you look at levels of unhappiness, loneliness, suicide, divorce etc and see they are highest in the most capitalistic countries it does make you wonder if we've been sold a pup?

Because many people do not give a shit as long as their pocket is heavier. This over rides decency and even acknowledging when something is wrong even though it was acceptable 40, 50, 60 or 100 years ago. The rationale that it was the done thing in the day just doesn't cut it. Women not being able to vote in the day was seen as absolutely fine, as was using lead in household paint, using asbestos in making houses. The rationale of it was the done thing in the day just don't cut it in 2020.

I did notice the language whip used, very subtle.

Some of whips comments incited a giggle from me.

"We want to pretend history was only full of mass genocide, rape, bigotry, colonialism and every other horror imaginable"

Who is "we" & who is pretending history is full of genocide, rape, bigotry & colonialism? I am sure all those are party of history, or are we to gloss over it & ignore those facts?
Just because a group of people make mention of those facts, people shouldn't be suckered into the concept of everyone is pretending history is full of these concepts. Heaven forbid our history hold an accurate account of what actually occurred.

"We are removing statues of everybody"
Again who are we? The LU mob, the Liberal Party of Australia, Folk Singers of Tasmania?
No, some people around the world are removing some statues. Of everybody? this is where conservatives get a bit excited with their narrative and tend to guild the lily. Hve the statues of Wally, Don Bradman, Lionel Rose been removed?, surely they is a part of the "removing statues of everybody. Selective choice, the fact remains it is an incorrect premise.

In short, many will agree to disagree & that's fine. Each to their own.
 

Whip Whitaker

Juniors
Messages
808
Yes saw it, and I dont :)
Capitalism is interesting, especially when you consider some of the recorded happiest people in the world are living in poverty or low income. Is it a false measurement we have been sold by those who stand to gain the most? When you measure your success/happiness by the size of your TV you can afford rather than the quality of your relationships, the care and consideration you give to others or how much good you can for the world then capitalism makes perfect sense. But when you look at levels of unhappiness, loneliness, suicide, divorce etc and see they are highest in the most capitalistic countries it does make you wonder if we've been sold a pup?

re the current statue thing, most of these men became rich and powerful and thats why they have a statue. Some of them did terrible things to get that wealth and power. I have no problem with us re-looking at history through a contextual lens of today and deciding if these are the people we should put up as monuments to human history. Human history is full of incredible men and women who have contributed to the betterment of other people and the planet, more statues of those people might be better to celebrate our past and guide our future?


No dramas. Each to their own, in terms of us disagreeing.

Capitalism has its flaws. The post-Communist Russian population have described how their transition to capitalism has been an interesting feeling. Now, their living standards are superior, but they do concede that the feeling of community is less and less (which aligns with many of the fears and insecurities you described about the modern world where people operate independently and sometimes selfishly). Notwithstanding that Russia is still very much a dictatorship (as the oligarchy superseded the communists), but I still believe Russians overall would prefer the imperfections of capitalism to the imperfections of socialism/ communism. Even when Capitalism is imperfect, and the rich exploit the poor, over the long-term, the people come out on top than their socialist neighbours. There is no greater example of this than Singapore under Lee Kuan Yew. He kept unions and the workers under strict controls. But long-term, those people became middle class (whether Lee intended that or not).

I think you may have slightly missed the point I made about those with statues. For example, a little bit of historical knowledge can inform the masses that so and so owned slaves. But a much deeper and sincere look into the life of somebody can show a lot more context, and even positives. It can highlight theirs efforts to free themselves and their country of slavery, even if they originally inherited and owned slaves. It's only a matter of time before we compared Jefferson and Lincoln to Hitler because these points are lost on people who do not get all the facts.

There's a real misconception in the West today that slavery is a Western white person problem when in fact, slavery was a problem for all races and people who were the dominating empire, whether they were Asian, African, Europeans, Arabs, Tukish, Latinos, Pacific Islanders etc (it just happened to be that Europeans and Ottomon Turks were the last known/ remember offenders). We can look at Europeans, especially the USA and UK, with distain because of the past slavery, but without those country, most of the world would still be practising slavery today, as it was people within those countries (both Christians and Humanist atheists who decided this was not morally right nor compatible with what they were supposed to believe). This is something the Left is either unaware or unwilling to put in textbooks because it is either to paint history as white people ruining everybody else's lives and traditions, and that we have to tear up the capitalist fabric of society and be socialists or communists.
 

Whip Whitaker

Juniors
Messages
808
Who is "we" & who is pretending history is full of genocide, rape, bigotry & colonialism? I am sure all those are party of history, or are we to gloss over it & ignore those facts?
Just because a group of people make mention of those facts, people shouldn't be suckered into the concept of everyone is pretending history is full of these concepts. Heaven forbid our history hold an accurate account of what actually occurred.

"We are removing statues of everybody"
Again who are we? The LU mob, the Liberal Party of Australia, Folk Singers of Tasmania?
No, some people around the world are removing some statues. Of everybody? this is where conservatives get a bit excited with their narrative and tend to guild the lily. Hve the statues of Wally, Don Bradman, Lionel Rose been removed?, surely they is a part of the "removing statues of everybody. Selective choice, the fact remains it is an incorrect premise.

In short, many will agree to disagree & that's fine. Each to their own.


It's already happening in Australia. The left is trying to present only a negative view of Australian history. It didn't help that John Howard tried to ignore the negatives and only show the positives. But now, we are going to the other extreme. I'd like Australia to be mature enough to acknowledge the pride and sadness of our history, then get on with life together, and with love and not hatred.

The removing of statues is predominantly a US issue, but the cancer is spreading to Australia. Look at the attempts to remove statues of Captain Cook.
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
25,520
It's already happening in Australia. The left is trying to present only a negative view of Australian history. It didn't help that John Howard tried to ignore the negatives and only show the positives. But now, we are going to the other extreme. I'd like Australia to be mature enough to acknowledge the pride and sadness of our history, then get on with life together, and with love and not hatred.

The removing of statues is predominantly a US issue, but the cancer is spreading to Australia. Look at the attempts to remove statues of Captain Cook.
When acknowledging the the pride and sadness of our history, that is dependant on our leaders not ignoring sections of it. True leadership embraces it warts and all. I agree wholeheartedly, sadly it won't occur until we have political consensus on accepting & embracing all our history, which is more difficult than it sounds. Some PM's on both sides, just will not do this.
 

Quicksilver

Bench
Messages
3,315
No dramas. Each to their own, in terms of us disagreeing.

Capitalism has its flaws. The post-Communist Russian population have described how their transition to capitalism has been an interesting feeling. Now, their living standards are superior, but they do concede that the feeling of community is less and less (which aligns with many of the fears and insecurities you described about the modern world where people operate independently and sometimes selfishly). Notwithstanding that Russia is still very much a dictatorship (as the oligarchy superseded the communists), but I still believe Russians overall would prefer the imperfections of capitalism to the imperfections of socialism/ communism. Even when Capitalism is imperfect, and the rich exploit the poor, over the long-term, the people come out on top than their socialist neighbours. There is no greater example of this than Singapore under Lee Kuan Yew. He kept unions and the workers under strict controls. But long-term, those people became middle class (whether Lee intended that or not).

I think you may have slightly missed the point I made about those with statues. For example, a little bit of historical knowledge can inform the masses that so and so owned slaves. But a much deeper and sincere look into the life of somebody can show a lot more context, and even positives. It can highlight theirs efforts to free themselves and their country of slavery, even if they originally inherited and owned slaves. It's only a matter of time before we compared Jefferson and Lincoln to Hitler because these points are lost on people who do not get all the facts.

There's a real misconception in the West today that slavery is a Western white person problem when in fact, slavery was a problem for all races and people who were the dominating empire, whether they were Asian, African, Europeans, Arabs, Tukish, Latinos, Pacific Islanders etc (it just happened to be that Europeans and Ottomon Turks were the last known/ remember offenders). We can look at Europeans, especially the USA and UK, with distain because of the past slavery, but without those country, most of the world would still be practising slavery today, as it was people within those countries (both Christians and Humanist atheists who decided this was not morally right nor compatible with what they were supposed to believe). This is something the Left is either unaware or unwilling to put in textbooks because it is either to paint history as white people ruining everybody else's lives and traditions, and that we have to tear up the capitalist fabric of society and be socialists or communists.

Slavery isn’t just some “whoopsie” act though. It’s not like they thoughtlessly misspoke or something other minor indiscretion.

They held people against their will and made them (Usually) do hard labour. They were often separated from family. I don’t know if there’s a bigger violation of the notion of freedom.

I can’t imagine people would think much of me if I grabbed a few strangers off the street, chained them up for years and made them work for nothing. Even if I was nice to the people in my office and my own children.
 

Whip Whitaker

Juniors
Messages
808
Slavery isn’t just some “whoopsie” act though. It’s not like they thoughtlessly misspoke or something other minor indiscretion.

They held people against their will and made them (Usually) do hard labour. They were often separated from family. I don’t know if there’s a bigger violation of the notion of freedom.

I can’t imagine people would think much of me if I grabbed a few strangers off the street, chained them up for years and made them work for nothing. Even if I was nice to the people in my office and my own children.

Slavery is truly terrible, but it was very much normal at the time. This doesn't justify it, so please don't assume that is my point. My point is that, it took time for people to see it the way we now see it.

My understanding of history is, just as one group was enslaved, they became the slave masters when they had the power to do so (and we have overstated the role of racism in this, today). What is interesting is the role of religion in slavery. The ruling classes enslaved others as if it was a God given right that they had a right to govern and do whatever they want (think the Romans and Mongols). But later in history, European Christians (alongside European atheists), after practising slavery for centuries, found it abhorrent and not aligning with moral principles. Many, however, feared a post slavery society. Rightly or wrongly, they contemplated if slaves were ready to adjust to normal life and be civilised; will they want revenge; will they overpower us etc. These considerations definitely played a part in European, American and Turkish administrators thoughts when it came to releasing slaves.

People today are slaves as well, but in less obvious ways. The majority of the world is enslaved in debt. If you talk to economists, the answer you will often get is 'that is the way the economic system works,' and basically that is the end of the topic. But I am sure society would be a lot more fair if we were more imaginative with our economic system rather than printing money, and spending before we truly own it. While I advocate the dangers of abandoning capitalism for socialism and communism, likewise, I advocate the dangers of not reforming capitalism.
 
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Whip Whitaker

Juniors
Messages
808
When acknowledging the the pride and sadness of our history, that is dependant on our leaders not ignoring sections of it. True leadership embraces it warts and all. I agree wholeheartedly, sadly it won't occur until we have political consensus on accepting & embracing all our history, which is more difficult than it sounds. Some PM's on both sides, just will not do this.

John Howard upset the left, as well as many in the middle and centre right, for his exaggerated pride about Australia, and pretending it was all a romantic Aussie dream for everybody. I myself was a critic of him for doing so.

But now, with so much negativity about how bad Australia was historically (as well as the British Empire), I kind of half wish I could hear Howard provide the missing other half of the story because the Left is making a horror movie out of our past.
 

Quicksilver

Bench
Messages
3,315
John Howard upset the left, as well as many in the middle and centre right, for his exaggerated pride about Australia, and pretending it was all a romantic Aussie dream for everybody. I myself was a critic of him for doing so.

But now, with so much negativity about how bad Australia was historically (as well as the British Empire), I kind of half wish I could hear Howard provide the missing other half of the story because the Left is making a horror movie out of our past.

Come on. There are literally thousands of places that you can read, hear, see or watch positive accounts of Australian history.

I don’t know where you get this idea that it doesn’t exist.
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
25,520
John Howard upset the left, as well as many in the middle and centre right, for his exaggerated pride about Australia, and pretending it was all a romantic Aussie dream for everybody. I myself was a critic of him for doing so.

But now, with so much negativity about how bad Australia was historically (as well as the British Empire), I kind of half wish I could hear Howard provide the missing other half of the story because the Left is making a horror movie out of our past.

The reality is he was a liar, off the top of my head issues that he was caught out lying about & public outcry ensued. WMD, children overboard, Workchoices, Australian Wheat Board. He made a conscious decision to ignore one half of our history (as you put it). That was his & the LNP’s decision. Therefore it is his & the LNP‘s baggage & they should carry it. That comes with criticism & rightfully so. He tarnished his own legacy, good Ol honest John.

Saying the left is making a horror movie out of our past is dishonest. Should they just shut up because some people don’t like hearing it? You may not like some home truths about our past, it only makes it a horror movie because some actions belong there.
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
25,520
Come on. There are literally thousands of places that you can read, hear, see or watch positive accounts of Australian history.

I don’t know where you get this idea that it doesn’t exist.
The LNP playbook maybe. Blame those opposite & never take responsibility.
 

Whip Whitaker

Juniors
Messages
808
The reality is he was a liar, off the top of my head issues that he was caught out lying about & public outcry ensued. WMD, children overboard, Workchoices, Australian Wheat Board. He made a conscious decision to ignore one half of our history (as you put it). That was his & the LNP’s decision. Therefore it is his & the LNP‘s baggage & they should carry it. That comes with criticism & rightfully so. He tarnished his own legacy, good Ol honest John.

Saying the left is making a horror movie out of our past is dishonest. Should they just shut up because some people don’t like hearing it? You may not like some home truths about our past, it only makes it a horror movie because some actions belong there.

Howard could have handled things a lot better. Especially in Indigenous Affairs. But he was an opportunist of the times (just like he was with Tampa). He saw how Paul Keating was starting to take Indigenous Affairs too far to the left, and Howard knew that was too much and that it didn't sit well with the wider population. He also sought to exploit the fears raised by Pauline Hanson, but a lot more watered down.

As for the left and being silent, I never made such a claim. Its just that the left believes it should be the only story, and the narrative should always be 'those poor suffering Aborigines, and us very bad and evil white people'. I am personally sick of the sympathy. I don't mind me some empathy for the things my family has went through, but spare me the crocodiles tears and symbolism. I want real opportunities, and I want to have a good crack at life like any other Aussie. If Stan Grant says the Australian Dream doesn't apply to Aboriginal people, well, I am going to get mine regardless of what he says. I could blame the British and Aussies for what happened to my ancestors, or I could take advantage of the opportunities that are at my doorstep.
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
44,953
Howard could have handled things a lot better. Especially in Indigenous Affairs. But he was an opportunist of the times (just like he was with Tampa). He saw how Paul Keating was starting to take Indigenous Affairs too far to the left, and Howard knew that was too much and that it didn't sit well with the wider population. He also sought to exploit the fears raised by Pauline Hanson, but a lot more watered down.

As for the left and being silent, I never made such a claim. Its just that the left believes it should be the only story, and the narrative should always be 'those poor suffering Aborigines, and us very bad and evil white people'. I am personally sick of the sympathy. I don't mind me some empathy for the things my family has went through, but spare me the crocodiles tears and symbolism. I want real opportunities, and I want to have a good crack at life like any other Aussie. If Stan Grant says the Australian Dream doesn't apply to Aboriginal people, well, I am going to get mine regardless of what he says. I could blame the British and Aussies for what happened to my ancestors, or I could take advantage of the opportunities that are at my doorstep.

TBF it was pretty sht for most Indigenous Australians under British colonization it would seem! Presenting honest history of what actually happened isnt left wing or perverting history, its telling it as it was. The old days of the victor writing the history are disapearing and its not bad thing. I heard plenty of how the British colonized Australia but heard very little about what happened to the native peoples during that time until recent years. And yes it is barbaric, sad and a blot on Australias history. Better we face it acknowledge it, make amends for it and move on from it than hiding it away to fester like a boil on the backside. Totally agree re the empathy v sympathy. I do think there needs to be a better understanding of equality v equity though. Sometimes you need a leg up to get to where others are.
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
44,953
Left wing logic: I committed the crime, but the last 200 years of history is the reason it happened.

So you're totally ignoring the role of socialisation on human behavior? In my part of the world we saw a classic example of this when Thatcher closed down the British industries and mines. Families who for generations had always worked for a living found themselves on the dole and in public housing estates with no job opportunities, their next generation followed suit and so on and it can still be seen today. Cause and effect.
 

_Johnsy

Referee
Messages
25,520
Left wing logic: I committed the crime, but the last 200 years of history is the reason it happened.
Sounds a bit like Alan Jones, Bolt, Bronwyn Bishop, Bridget McKenzie, Scomo, et al. Unable to take responsibility for their own words or actions, always someone else’s fault. I think you’ve mistaken “the left” for modern society.
 
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