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Superthread LXVI: Honouring Whinging Dragons Fans

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BunniesMan

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33,738
I don't see why it's a big deal. As far as I know no doctor in Canberra has bulk billed for years. Even at the ACT govt clinic you pay a "co-payment" of $40!!! Personally I pay $80 to see my GP. No one has marched against ACT Labor over it and it certainly doesn't stop the clinics being packed to the gills.

Ultimately I don't agree with parts of the budget and I do with others. Exactly the way I've felt about every budget since I can remember bothering to take notice. I just don't get the Abbott hate. He's a slimy dude, sure. But no more than anyone else and to be honest. It just seems that people have decided anything he does is evil even if Labor did the same thing. Frankly I think it's concerning. No one "Marched in March" when Labor were driving us into debt (and even if the liberals overstate the debt, I defy anyone here to tell me they would be happy with 350 billion odd in debt), no one made a peep when they spent hundreds of billions on aircraft carriers the Navy don't want or signed an agreement to be part of the development program for the joint strike fighter (but Abbot is "evil" for honouring that agreement to fill the now almost serviceable carriers).....etc etc. Politicians suck. But at the moment I think Australia has an attitude problem.

Firstly there are many doctors who bulk bill. It is not that hard to find. Secondly the gp tax won't change the behaviour of middle class healthy people. But it will smash our poorest and our sickest. $7 may be nothing to you. But for some people it is enough to discourage them from seeing a doctor. A gp visit that could detect the early signs of heart disease, blood pressure, diabetes, cancer or many other things. Things that when detected early have a much higher chance of being treated successfully. Things if unnoticed will hurt the taxpayer a thousand times more down the line when the taxpayer has to pay for an emergency room visit and major surgeries.

Secondly, please understand you have been conned by the debt scare campaign. Our debt levels are among the smallest in the world. And this government has added to our debt, not taken away from it. If it was truly the emergency they said it was they would not be taking part in any wasteful new spending.

The previous government went into relatively tiny debt to save jobs and it succeeded. We have some of the lowest unemployment in the world and we acheived it with much less debt than the rest of the world.

You mention defense spending. Yes it is too high. Yes it is wasteful. Yes it should be cut before health and education are cut. And yes it is a bi-partisan problem.

Labor has got plenty wrong. Labor has been a dysfunctional mess at times. But they were good economic managers (certainly better than Howard in his last term) and on their worst day they were not as economically geniused like this present government is on its best day.
 

afinalsin666

First Grade
Messages
8,163
I am genuinely concerned about what I'm going to do in the future

In 5 months work cover cut me off (because of legislation changes in 2012). After that I lose my job as I'm unable to fulfil the duties. I won't qualify for disability pension despite being hospitalised for anxiety a month ago as well as the injury. Now I won't get paid for 6 months? If I had significant savings it might be a different story. But I don't.

Keep attacking it. Two or more different psych reports, doctors reports and such. I know exactly how much of a merkin it is, you just need to keep hammering away.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,738
I am genuinely concerned about what I'm going to do in the future

In 5 months work cover cut me off (because of legislation changes in 2012). After that I lose my job as I'm unable to fulfil the duties. I won't qualify for disability pension despite being hospitalised for anxiety a month ago as well as the injury. Now I won't get paid for 6 months? If I had significant savings it might be a different story. But I don't.

If worst comes to worst and you are looking at not getting anything for those 6 months as a last resort you could just sign up for some full time study. I know it's far from ideal but that would at least give you Youth Allowance which is better than nothing.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,973
Did you know you shouldn't believe everything you see on the internet

abraham-lincoln-quotes7.jpg
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
103,610
Firstly there are many doctors who bulk bill. It is not that hard to find.

Have you ever even been to Canberra? Don't pretend you know more than someone who lives here. I can think of one "free" clinic in Canberra; the nurse run clinic at Canberra Hospital. Everywhere else is at least $40-$45, which is the standardised GP rate for a short visit in the ACT minus the Medicare rebate.

Secondly the gp tax won't change the behaviour of middle class healthy people. But it will smash our poorest and our sickest. $7 may be nothing to you. But for some people it is enough to discourage them from seeing a doctor. A gp visit that could detect the early signs of heart disease, blood pressure, diabetes, cancer or many other things. Things that when detected early have a much higher chance of being treated successfully. Things if unnoticed will hurt the taxpayer a thousand times more down the line when the taxpayer has to pay for an emergency room visit and major surgeries.

And yet that hasn't happened in Canberra with a $40-$45 minimum payment....imposed by a LABOR Chief Minister, I might add.

Secondly, please understand you have been conned by the debt scare campaign. Our debt levels are among the smallest in the world. And this government has added to our debt, not taken away from it. If it was truly the emergency they said it was they would not be taking part in any wasteful new spending.

Please understand that I am vastly more intelligent than you. I understand completely the Liberals have overstated the debt issue. But answer my question. Is 350 odd BILLION dollars in debt acceptable, regardless of %GDP?

The previous government went into relatively tiny debt to save jobs and it succeeded. We have some of the lowest unemployment in the world and we acheived it with much less debt than the rest of the world.

The previous govt was saved by the mining industry and by over-saturating the public service. The same industry they tried to kill with taxes.

You mention defense spending. Yes it is too high. Yes it is wasteful. Yes it should be cut before health and education are cut. And yes it is a bi-partisan problem.

Labor smashed defence. Education and Health are already much, much higher than defence spending. What's more expensive, putting the wasteful Labor aircraft carriers into service, thus creating jobs, or leaving them to rot in the docks at Garden Island? What do you outfit them with, BM?

Labor has got plenty wrong. Labor has been a dysfunctional mess at times. But they were good economic managers (certainly better than Howard in his last term) and on their worst day they were not as economically geniused like this present government is on its best day.

Simply incorrect.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
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33,738
Simply incorrect.

You complain about Labor's debt when it's as much Howard's as it is theirs. What he did to petrol and taxes cost more than any single budget deficit we've ever had. Meaning, if Labor on their first day in office simply undid everything Howard did in his final term we'd be in surplus right now.

You complain about Labor economic policy but nothing they did is as geniused as spending a short term economic boom on permanent tax cuts (unnecessary in the first place, when our tax base was not out of line with the OECD) instead of one off infrastructure which would have been far more logical, productive and affordable.

Howard's last term: Income tax cuts we couldn't afford, fuel tax cuts we couldn't afford.
Abbott's first budget: economically counter-productive trash policy like cuts to primary healthcare and education.

The absolute worst policies of Hawke, Keating, Rudd and Gillard are not as bad as that set.

P.S. Canberra does have bulk billing problems relative to the rest of the country but nowhere near nonexistant:

The ACT has the lowest bulk billing rate in Australia, with only 48 per cent of GP appointments fully charged to the federal government, compared to a national rate of 81 per cent.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...ulk-billing-20120312-1uwkx.html#ixzz31ePLO8Wj

An example of bulk billing:
http://www.truelocal.com.au/business/ginninderra-medical-and-dental-centre/belconnen

http://health.act.gov.au/c/health?a=sp&pid=1316133581&site=54781&servicecategory=18#results

http://health.act.gov.au/c/health?a=sp&pid=1316133581&site=77552&servicecategory=18#results
 

sensesmaybenumbed

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
29,226
Well, its how it has been in the past (i.e. Churchs paying for chaplains, not governments) so I don't know why they started paying for chaplains now. Chaplains aren't just about teaching religion though. They offer pastoral counselling and secular counselling too for kids who don't have a religious faith.

These people are called 'counselors'. To me, 'Chaplain' has a very specific meaning, that being a religious minister. The government has no business paying for them.

No he's not. He's a devout statesmen first. Don't let him trick you. He claims it because its the demographic he is appealing to.

And the stooges believe it. He's so blatantly manipulative it beggars belief anyone would credit his claims.

raided my citrus grove of all the lemons and limes..

given the price i was able to sell those to the commoners for (they are rather expensive at the moment) it gave me no option but to terminate him.

Personally?! How.... awful.
 

Jason Maher

Immortal
Messages
35,991
Government debt is a burden on future tax payers. Government debt is financed largely by the sale of Treasury bonds. Those bonds need to be repaid at a set date in the future with interest. How are they repaid? Either by the sale of more bonds (kicking the can down the road, something all governments love to do), or out of government revenue, i.e. out of taxpayers' pockets. So either spending is reduced in future every time we go into debt, or taxes are increased. The only alternative is the sale of assets.

More importantly, government spending does not stimulate the economy. If the spending is from tax revenue, then the economy has already been reduced by at least the amount of the spending. All that is achieved under the best case scenario is a shuffling of deck chairs. In reality, the economy actually shrinks due to government spending, since money is siphoned away from the more productive sectors of the economy and redistributed to the less productive. This is even assuming 100% throughput and no waste, which is a hopelessly unrealistic assumption.

If the government spending is deficit spending (debt), then the economy in the future is being reduced by the amount borrowed + interest, for the best case scenario of increasing the economy now by the amount borrowed. Of course the spending is still subject to the same factors of being redirected to less productive sectors of the economy and churn (waste).

Governments (and people who support them) like to talk about creating jobs and stimulating growth, but what they never, ever mention (because it's easy and convenient to ignore and impossible to measure) is the number of jobs either directly destroyed by their intervention or that would have been created had they not intervened, and likewise the economic activity that was directly destroyed by their intervention or would have occurred had they not intervened. These things cannot be measured, as we can't take a trip into an alternative reality to observe them, but they are very real. This is known as Opportunity Cost, and is one the foundational concepts of economics. Any economic analysis that leaves opportunity cost out is at best completely wrong, at worst deliberately deceptive. And most of what passes for economic analysis in a political context does leave it out. Including pretty much all of the whinging about the budget I've observed thus far.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,973
anyone else feel like you've got your left foot in arizona, your right foot in new mexico, your left hand in utah and your right hand in colorado?
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
103,610
You complain about Labor's debt when it's as much Howard's as it is theirs. What he did to petrol and taxes cost more than any single budget deficit we've ever had. Meaning, if Labor on their first day in office simply undid everything Howard did in his final term we'd be in surplus right now.

You complain about Labor economic policy but nothing they did is as geniused as spending a short term economic boom on permanent tax cuts (unnecessary in the first place, when our tax base was not out of line with the OECD) instead of one off infrastructure which would have been far more logical, productive and affordable.

Howard's last term: Income tax cuts we couldn't afford, fuel tax cuts we couldn't afford.
Abbott's first budget: economically counter-productive trash policy like cuts to primary healthcare and education.

The absolute worst policies of Hawke, Keating, Rudd and Gillard are not as bad as that set.

P.S. Canberra does have bulk billing problems relative to the rest of the country but nowhere near nonexistant:



http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act...ulk-billing-20120312-1uwkx.html#ixzz31ePLO8Wj

An example of bulk billing:
http://www.truelocal.com.au/business/ginninderra-medical-and-dental-centre/belconnen

http://health.act.gov.au/c/health?a=sp&pid=1316133581&site=54781&servicecategory=18#results

http://health.act.gov.au/c/health?a=sp&pid=1316133581&site=77552&servicecategory=18#results

Yes. Bulk billing as I described, you smarmy illiterate idiot. You pay the standardised GP fee (which I believe is $76, although clinics seem to charge $70-80 and some very popular GPs charge more) minus the Medicare rebate of about $35. What about that is "free"? It's not bulk billing in the sense you were discussing, is it? Even Gininderra ONLY BULK BILLS SENIORS AND PENSIONERS. Well done, you found some links with some keywords. Have you actually been to any of these places, BM?

So again. If you pay $40-45 in the ACT to see a Doctor and society hasn't collapsed in a screaming heap, why will it when people are forced to pay a measly $7?
 

Ozzy

First Grade
Messages
9,017
I don't see why it's a big deal. As far as I know no doctor in Canberra has bulk billed for years. Even at the ACT govt clinic you pay a "co-payment" of $40!!! Personally I pay $80 to see my GP. No one has marched against ACT Labor over it and it certainly doesn't stop the clinics being packed to the gills.

Ultimately I don't agree with parts of the budget and I do with others. Exactly the way I've felt about every budget since I can remember bothering to take notice. I just don't get the Abbott hate. He's a slimy dude, sure. But no more than anyone else and to be honest. It just seems that people have decided anything he does is evil even if Labor did the same thing. Frankly I think it's concerning. No one "Marched in March" when Labor were driving us into debt (and even if the liberals overstate the debt, I defy anyone here to tell me they would be happy with 350 billion odd in debt), no one made a peep when they spent hundreds of billions on aircraft carriers the Navy don't want or signed an agreement to be part of the development program for the joint strike fighter (but Abbot is "evil" for honouring that agreement to fill the now almost serviceable carriers).....etc etc. Politicians suck. But at the moment I think Australia has an attitude problem.
Bazal when did Australia buy an Aircraft Carrier let alone Carriers? Last one we had was HMAS Melbourne and tha was sold back in the 1980's
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,738
Nobody is saying permanent debt is a good thing. Just that the relatively small debt we had created was necessary to avoid an economic death spiral. If we took the full brunt of the economic crisis the tax base would have collapsed causing even more debt.
 

Didgi

Moderator
Messages
17,260
Facebook is trending 'Australian National Association Football Team'.

I can just see all the fanatics die a little inside.
 

BunniesMan

Immortal
Messages
33,738
Yes. Bulk billing as I described, you smarmy illiterate idiot. You pay the standardised GP fee (which I believe is $76, although clinics seem to charge $70-80 and some very popular GPs charge more) minus the Medicare rebate of about $35. What about that is "free"? It's not bulk billing in the sense you were discussing, is it? Even Gininderra ONLY BULK BILLS SENIORS AND PENSIONERS. Well done, you found some links with some keywords. Have you actually been to any of these places, BM?

So again. If you pay $40-45 in the ACT to see a Doctor and society hasn't collapsed in a screaming heap, why will it when people are forced to pay a measly $7?

Bulk billing is when you pay nothing to see a GP. Those links I sent you advertise bulk billing. Bulk billing is not getting less than half your cost rebated. There are multiple places in Canberra where you can see a GP without cost.

And here is bulk billing in Canberra spelt out for you:

The Benham Street clinic, which was opened this morning by local MLA Joy Burch, brings to six the number of clinics across Canberra owned and operated by the newly named National Health Co-Op, formerly known as the West Belconnen Health Co-Op.

?It is fantastic that we are now able to offer Tuggeranong residents 100 per cent bulk-billed GP services ? no matter the patient?s circumstances they are guaranteed to be bulk-billed,?

http://citynews.com.au/2013/bulk-bill-clinic-opens-in-tuggeranong/

That company alone has 6 clinics. Face it, you're wrong. Bulk billing exists in Canberra. Less than the rest of the country but it exists.
 
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