Sydney's North Shore

[Broncos93]

I don't think the North Shore's junior base is as bad as being made out. Between Chatswood and Hornsby there is a black hole, but the lower North Shore is covered in Willoughby/Lane Cove/Nth Sydney Brothers, and the upper covered with the mentioned Asquith and Berowra.

What bugs me though, working with NRL development, is the difference between the quality provided between Manly juniors and Norths juniors when running clinics. Norths got the token player this year in Matt King, claimed only through the Norths/Souths feeder relationship, whilst Manly get half the team showing up. On top of this they have dozens of handouts and things to take home from sponsors and club merchandise whilst the Norths kids get a kicking tee, a boot bag and a footy (all of which Manly kids also got).

I don't think Manly taking the area is the solution, simply because of the rivalry, but something has to be done. Seeing as though the CCBears bid seems to have been put on the back burner, maybe in the interim (the 10, 15 years until the Bears would have hopefully been readmitted) Souths could take over the area in development and funding as part of the feeder with the Bears NSW Cup side?

I guess that's more a bandaid fix however and doesn't solve the problem that the Bears area is being taken by another club. Whatever the case, I think the North Shore should be on the list of priorities for the NRL to fix, because the current set up is not working. The Norths-Manly A Grade is in shambles at the moment, and it's not going to get better for the North.

 

[juro]

What would the Bears prefer, that the north shore is taken over by another club or another sport?

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Manly should be cultivating the north shore.

A re-branding to the NORTHERN EAGLES would also help.

Add in a thin black and red stripe in the maroon and white, and Bob's yer uncle.

Win-win-win-win...and maybe one more win.

 

[Misanthrope]

I think you'd have greater success allowing almost any other club to 'claim' North Sydney. Bears fans hate Manly and with good reason. It's spitting in the faces of their loyal fans to have the club largely responsible for their death 'represent' them.

Seriously, you'd have better luck running Newcastle or Sydney there.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Put the Roosters to work up there. They have almost no junior boarders and they keep bitching about it.

Plus, they (almost) share a boarder with the bears and theyre closer that any other team (barring Manly)

Really they only other option would be if Balmain came back, but thats not exactly likely, is it.

 

[Warrior@Heart]

I think the best scenario would be if Manly moved to Gosford and the Bears were resurrected to play out of the SFS.

Surely Bluetongue would be more likely to get upgraded with two tenants (Mariners & Sea Eagles) then Brookvale. Plus I don't think The Sea Eagles based in Manly alone is sustainable long term especially if The Bears were resurrected in Central Coast, it would be similar to the Sharks situation of being isolated between St. George & Illawarra.

Manly's small population and uncooperative local government are problems which are only going to become worse over time as other clubs outgrow them, by basing themselves in Gosford they are more likely to attract stadium funding and have a larger junior catchment area.

The Bears resurrected as North Sydney could train at NS Oval similar to Souths training at Redfern but play their home games at The SFS similar to how Souths play theirs at ANZ. Bears fans would be more likely to travel to The SFS than Manly fans would I'd imagine. Following The Rabbitohs blueprint North Sydney could be a very marketable brand without having to build a shiny new stadium or create a club
from scratch.

Also I think the stadium rationalisation vision of NSW is one to be considered therefore the relocation of Manly to Central Coast is better suited to them playing home games at The SFS. I see Dragons playing the majority of their Sydney games at The SFS also. As for Cronulla I'm not sure they will ever have the required solvency to upgrade their stadium to fit the NRL's vision of all clubs averaging crowds of over 20,000 nor will the government provide the funding required.

Of course though there would be a lot of people against this idea but in my opinion is the best way to assure the North is represented and two great clubs were in the best positions to insure longevity in The NRL.

P.S. in regards to too many teams in Sydney this idea is set on the precedent that Cronulla relocate as I also think their current location is not sustainable long term.

 

[reanimate]

I agree Red. When I read these threads I just shake my head. Surely, if we have a low presence in an area like this, we should just be hitting them with growth programs?

If the AFL can grow there, (see above) why can't we?

Agreed, we've been sitting on our hands and letting the AFL infest the area, as well letting the Union clubs have free reign, it's madness.

I don't think the North Shore's junior base is as bad as being made out. Between Chatswood and Hornsby there is a black hole, but the lower North Shore is covered in Willoughby/Lane Cove/Nth Sydney Brothers, and the upper covered with the mentioned Asquith and Berowra.

What bugs me though, working with NRL development, is the difference between the quality provided between Manly juniors and Norths juniors when running clinics. Norths got the token player this year in Matt King, claimed only through the Norths/Souths feeder relationship, whilst Manly get half the team showing up. On top of this they have dozens of handouts and things to take home from sponsors and club merchandise whilst the Norths kids get a kicking tee, a boot bag and a footy (all of which Manly kids also got).

I don't think Manly taking the area is the solution, simply because of the rivalry, but something has to be done. Seeing as though the CCBears bid seems to have been put on the back burner, maybe in the interim (the 10, 15 years until the Bears would have hopefully been readmitted) Souths could take over the area in development and funding as part of the feeder with the Bears NSW Cup side?

I guess that's more a bandaid fix however and doesn't solve the problem that the Bears area is being taken by another club. Whatever the case, I think the North Shore should be on the list of priorities for the NRL to fix, because the current set up is not working. The Norths-Manly A Grade is in shambles at the moment, and it's not going to get better for the North.

Chatswood to Hornsby is a pretty damn big hole, add to that the fact that the Union clubs on the lower North Shore are pretty massive, and you've got barely any presence.

Souths have done bugger all with the area since their Norths partnership, they've had years to develop the area in partnership with Norths and have done nothing. All it's done is allow the Bears to cling onto the North Shore and continue to allow the rot to keep getting worse.

What would the Bears prefer, that the north shore is taken over by another club or another sport?

Exactly.

I think you'd have greater success allowing almost any other club to 'claim' North Sydney. Bears fans hate Manly and with good reason. It's spitting in the faces of their loyal fans to have the club largely responsible for their death 'represent' them.

Seriously, you'd have better luck running Newcastle or Sydney there.

That's why I've been saying you'd have to target young people- there's no point targeting old Bears fans, they won't accept anything other than the Bears. There's a lot of people on the North Shore who don't care about the Bears, especially young people, there's a market there ready to be taken.

Put the Roosters to work up there. They have almost no junior boarders and they keep bitching about it.

Plus, they (almost) share a boarder with the bears and theyre closer that any other team (barring Manly)

Really they only other option would be if Balmain came back, but thats not exactly likely, is it.

That is another option that could work. I do know a couple of Roosters fans on the North Shore, I know a lot more Manly fans from there though, plus North Shore and Manly juniors already play together and the two areas have always been closely linked, which is why I think Manly's a more natural fit.

I think the Roosters having the area is still a better solution than the CC Bears, it's definitely not a bad idea.

I think the best scenario would be if Manly moved to Gosford and the Bears were resurrected to play out of the SFS.

Surely Bluetongue would be more likely to get upgraded with two tenants (Mariners & Sea Eagles) then Brookvale. Plus I don't think The Sea Eagles based in Manly alone is sustainable long term especially if The Bears were resurrected in Central Coast, it would be similar to the Sharks situation of being isolated between St. George & Illawarra.

Manly's small population and uncooperative local government are problems which are only going to become worse over time as other clubs outgrow them, by basing themselves in Gosford they are more likely to attract stadium funding and have a larger junior catchment area.

The Bears resurrected as North Sydney could train at NS Oval similar to Souths training at Redfern but play their home games at The SFS similar to how Souths play theirs at ANZ. Bears fans would be more likely to travel to The SFS than Manly fans would I'd imagine. Following The Rabbitohs blueprint North Sydney could be a very marketable brand without having to build a shiny new stadium or create a club
from scratch.

Also I think the stadium rationalisation vision of NSW is one to be considered therefore the relocation of Manly to Central Coast is better suited to them playing home games at The SFS. I see Dragons playing the majority of their Sydney games at The SFS also. As for Cronulla I'm not sure they will ever have the required solvency to upgrade their stadium to fit the NRL's vision of all clubs averaging crowds of over 20,000 nor will the government provide the funding required.

Of course though there would be a lot of people against this idea but in my opinion is the best way to assure the North is represented and two great clubs were in the best positions to insure longevity in The NRL.

P.S. in regards to too many teams in Sydney this idea is set on the precedent that Cronulla relocate as I also think their current location is not sustainable long term.

A new (old) licence being granted in Sydney is incredibly, incredibly unlikely unless the licence was to be given to a new joint venture. I don't think, barring relocation, that any of the current Sydney clubs will be going anywhere, so a Bears revival based in North Sydney would be incredibly unlikely.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

That is another option that could work. I do know a couple of Roosters fans on the North Shore, I know a lot more Manly fans from there though, plus North Shore and Manly juniors already play together and the two areas have always been closely linked, which is why I think Manly's a more natural fit.

I think the Roosters having the area is still a better solution than the CC Bears, it's definitely not a bad idea.

Personally, i just like the roosters option as it means Manly can/should work in the Central Coast areas, where i imagine there would be less resistance.

Having said that, i think bears fans probably exaggerate the general hatred towards Manly. Obviously the diehards would still hold some animosity but i dont imagine it would be spread much further than them.

 

[docbrown]

Bears won't want to be anywhere other than nsw as they know they will have very little, if any, say on the running of the NRL club in another state.

Better for them to have a Bears brand in the NRL and having no say on running the NRL club then having no club in the NRL at all.

The Bears organisation could still run the second tier operations in North Sydney & Central Coast even if the NRL club was based in Brisbane, Adelaide or New Zealand.

I mean I know others talk about PNG & Central Queensland which frankly are long term proposals at best and I know you've talked about Adelaide being a prospect but frankly I would suggest that the Central Coast Bears would bring more to the game than the Adelaide "Whatevers".

That said if the NRL elects to neglect the Central Coast permanently and invest in South Australia instead, then the Adelaide Bears organisation with grassroots in North Sydney & Central Coast is likely to be a stronger club then the Adelaide Whatevers... so you can bad mouth the Bears organisation as much as you want but at the end of the day it's about ensuring that expansion clubs are the strongest they possibly can be.

And why wouldn't Manly cut it, given 20 years to work with the area and the full support of the NRL?

Because marketing comes back to engagement. Any NRL team pouring in money could carve out a niche on the Central Coast & North Shore - think of what Souths have done over in Perth. But that's a niche, not primary market dominance. To Manly their attitude has been to focus on the Northern Beaches market. Will that change? Like I said that's their choice but I doubt they'll abandon their existing base. If they continue to treat the Central Coast & North Shore as an afterthought or as a secondary/fringe market, then they will only ever achieve fringe market results. Hence why they won't cut it.

There's only one organisation prepared to engage the Central Coast & North Shore as their core market and that's the Bears. All other alternatives will yield secondary results.

Ultimately and as I've said before the best result for the game on the North Shore would be both the Bears & Sea Eagles making investments in the area.

Note that I agree that the CC should get a team down the track, but not while Sydney has 9 teams, and not the CC Bears, if they were to hang onto the North Shore.

I think you're more worried about Manly's future than anything else. Like I said, the North Shore isn't going to be Manly's saviour, they need to do more than that. That's not to say though that they should be axed or relocated either. They've got a strong enough brand to survive, they just have to sell themselves better.

And again I wouldn't deny the Central Coast region representation because of what's happening in a different city. I do agree though that if we do want to seriously look at teams in Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane, New Zealand and Central Coast and for that period keep a 20 team competition then a merger of 2 of the smaller Sydney teams should be considered. From a net loss/gain perspective if something has to happen, a merger has several advantages over relocation.

And how well has this worked for Cronulla? That idea isn't going to work for every club.

It work as much as the level of resources and engagement dictates.

A re-branding to the NORTHERN EAGLES would also help.

Burn it with fire and fast.

 

[reanimate]

Personally, i just like the roosters option as it means Manly can/should work in the Central Coast areas, where i imagine there would be less resistance.

Having said that, i think bears fans probably exaggerate the general hatred towards Manly. Obviously the diehards would still hold some animosity but i dont imagine it would be spread much further than them.

Yeah, outside of hardcore Bears fans and their circles, the hatred towards Manly has faded significantly and Manly support has grown instead.

Because marketing comes back to engagement. Any NRL team pouring in money could carve out a niche on the Central Coast & North Shore - think of what Souths have done over in Perth. But that's a niche, not primary market dominance. To Manly their attitude has been to focus on the Northern Beaches market. Will that change? Like I said that's their choice but I doubt they'll abandon their existing base. If they continue to treat the Central Coast & North Shore as an afterthought or as a secondary/fringe market, then they will only ever achieve fringe market results. Hence why they won't cut it.

If we were told to broaden our focus and had the support of the NRL, we would. We've tried, and still do, but Manly has to look after the Beaches first and foremost when we have a limited budget and no support from the NRL to engage the North Shore (instead we get resistance from a club who still technically has the area). If Manly were told that the North Shore was also ours to develop, then you'd get what Broncos93 described- a large number of our players at North Shore clinics, many more signings and fan days etc.

However, even if the North Shore were just a secondary market to Manly, like you're saying, that's still a far better position for casual RL fans on the North Shore than for the area to be a secondary market for a Central Coast team. I've asked the question before, but what's going to be more appealing to most people on the North Shore after work on a Friday/Monday night- a 20-45 minute bus trip to the Northern Beaches, or ~2 hour train trip to the Central Coast?
I think with the proximity of the two regions, you'd get less people seeing themselves as being part of a 'secondary market' with Manly than you would with the Central Coast, and again with the proximity, it'd be very easy for Manly to make regular trips to development activities and to engage fans.

There's only one organisation prepared to engage the Central Coast & North Shore as their core market and that's the Bears. All other alternatives will yield secondary results.

This has been my point all along- how are the Bears going to engage the North Shore? How is the North Shore going to be their core market when they're based on the CC? Just because they're called the Bears and Florimo and co. say so?

That the return of the Bears as the CC Bears = RL strength on the North Shore seems to be a massive assumption that I've never seen backed up by any sort of reasoning other than 'But, Bears!'.

I think you're more worried about Manly's future than anything else. Like I said, the North Shore isn't going to be Manly's saviour, they need to do more than that. That's not to say though that they should be axed or relocated either. They've got a strong enough brand to survive, they just have to sell themselves better.

I'm somewhat worried about Manly's future. Not hugely, I think we'll be fine either way, barring a massive hit (e.g. Brookvale redevelopment gets completely pulled, huge boardroom war etc.). I'm more worried about the state of RL on the North Shore- I think it's a hugely important area that's been completely overlooked thanks to the hysteria surrounding the 'battle for the West'. We don't want the North Shore being an AFL/Union stronghold. The area is home to a lot of influential people and influential businesses, RL needs a more constant presence there, not an in-town-once-a-year homage to a team that holds little significance to those in younger generations.

And again I wouldn't deny the Central Coast region representation because of what's happening in a different city. I do agree though that if we do want to seriously look at teams in Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane, New Zealand and Central Coast and for that period keep a 20 team competition then a merger of 2 of the smaller Sydney teams should be considered. From a net loss/gain perspective if something has to happen, a merger has several advantages over relocation.

I think the CC is better off building up a bid team that is completely their own. Build up a team with grassroots support like the Wyong Roos (and get them to rename themselves so they don't clash with our national side) and prep them for the NRL in 10-15 years time when the CC has grown significantly and can support a standalone team.

I think the Bears would be better off as an interstate South Melbourne Swans type team- they get to proclaim themselves as proudly representing their new area (which, in the Swans case, is a load of shit- where'd they first tour their latest trophy? What initials are on the back of their singlets?), whilst retaining their rusted on supporters who refuse to follow the teams who have adopted and taken over their old area. Plus, they're that far away that they can't interfere with the goings on in their old city.

Burn it with fire and fast.

Agreed.

 

[mightybears]

Tell the Bears to f**k off. All clubs need to attract new members. Who gives a flying f**k what Florimo thinks

.

Polite and classy.

 

[ag6858]

The manly/gosford discussion really depends to where on the North Shore you actually live. Yeah, if you live around Lindfield/Roseville/Chatswood, of course you'd rather go to Brookvale; but I live in Normanhurst, and I wouldn't even consider going to Brookvale by public transport, when I can easily catch the express train to Gosford from Hornsby station. I'd say anyone living north or west of Turramurra would feel the same way too.
By the way, I'd say Manly's influence on the North Shore is overstated. I go to a public high school in the area, and in my year, it's about 50% Souths, 25% Manly, 25% others.

 

[reanimate]

The manly/gosford discussion really depends to where on the North Shore you actually live. Yeah, if you live around Lindfield/Roseville/Chatswood, of course you'd rather go to Brookvale; but I live in Normanhurst, and I wouldn't even consider going to Brookvale by public transport, when I can easily catch the express train to Gosford from Hornsby station. I'd say anyone living north or west of Turramurra would feel the same way too.
By the way, I'd say Manly's influence on the North Shore is overstated. I go to a public high school in the area, and in my year, it's about 50% Souths, 25% Manly, 25% others.

Lindfield/Roseville/Chatswood etc. and Willoughby/North Sydney/Neutral Bay/Mosman etc. is a fair chunk of the North Shore, all of which can get to Brookvale easily. It's also where a huge amount of people work, which is an important factor when it comes to Friday/Monday night games. Who's going to want to get on a train and travel ~2 hours from those areas to Gosford after a day at work? Who would actually make it, if they had to stay back at work a little later?
Wahroonga, Turramurra etc aren't that bad off when it comes to Brookvale though- public transport isn't as good as the areas mentioned before, but they're a stone's throw from Mona Vale Rd which can get you to Brookvale quite quickly by car.

I think Manly's influence depends on where you are on the North Shore. As an example, Mosman/Cremorne/Neutral Bay- there's always a lot of open Manly supporters to be found, just check out the pubs on game day, or around the time of big games, the Cremorne Orpheum has put up 'Go Manly!' signs for Manly's recent grand final appearances, I know a fair few people from the area who are Manly supporters, or who have kids that are Manly supporters and so on. The areas which have teams playing in the MW/NS A-Grade also have a lot of Manly support. I don't spend a lot of time around Normanhurst so you could be right there.

 

[BuffaloRules]

11 years ago…

Did anyone have the Western Bears ?

 

[Matt_CBY]

Wish my previous account wasn’t banned. I could quote myself showing myself calling for Bears relocating to WA. Got so much hate from fans of a new WA team and the Bears fans on here at the time. Everybody is getting together now though and everything is happy.

 

[MugaB]

Wish my previous account wasn’t banned. I could quote myself showing myself calling for Bears relocating to WA. Got so much hate from fans of a new WA team and the Bears fans on here at the time. Everybody is getting together now though and everything is happy.

You can still find the quote tho... what's your old avatar name? I can search it real quick...
Very easy... for example type in "Logan" then press search,
Easy to see the latest Wolverine pics hahaha

 

[BuffaloRules]

Bears won't want to be anywhere other than nsw as they know they will have very little, if any, say on the running of the NRL club in another state.

Prophetic words indeed