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The 2012/13 Off Season Thread

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bartman

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Why should the majority be allowed to castigate someone for their political views? Democracy must be more than two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
But there's only one Jones (wolf)? Unless you're counting Hadley as the second? The roles aren't as black and white as you'd like to think, but wolves and lambs are all allowed to have their say.... So a problem with two way free speech? Each to their own.

Mate, I get paid to look at the rest of the world. If you think I'm uninformed you've got another think coming.
Join the club, but it's not what you're paid for that makes you informed or not, but what you do with that information that counts.

For every right wing internet mob you can find I'll find you ten on the left. You're a f**king liar if you're trying to claim both sides of politics are exactly-the-same-but-different.
Why define it as right and left wings? They are your (subjective) labels you're trying to pass across as fact. My point was the current backlash against Jones should not be simplistically described as being left (again, your subjective label) or right. It's about something else. And so was the backlash against Kyle Sandilands, and so was the backlash against Catherine Deveny etc etc.

Peoples' political leanings can be reliably predicted by their demographic indicators.
I think by "reliably predicted" you might mean "simplistically generalised"? Again, it's what (subjective) factors you introduce to the raw demographic statistics that you obtain that can bring your conclusions into trouble.

I suppose next you'll want to claim that people of all political persuasions listen in equal numbers to talk-back radio. :roll:
You're the one making all the nonsense claims on the back of some statistics here Pou. The only thing I'm claiming is that life (or any issue on here) is not as simple as you like to pretend, and offering the suggestion that you might like to start labelling your opinions as subjective opinions rather than pretending your opinions are facts?
 

Joshuatheeel

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I don't care about Alan's political view is , it is the way he uses his power/bullying tactics along with lies to express his views. This morning he was claiming Australia's un bid was costing $3billion as we have been giving aid to certain countries or his speech at Canberra last year at the protest convey where he was claiming 100's of trucks were being stopped at the boarder to prevent the protest (which was not true).

Listen to his show if someone disagrees with his view he bully's them or refuses to listen to their point of view.
 

Poupou Escobar

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Where did I claim life is simple? The human experience is so diversely complex that it can only be quantified by statistics.

The paranoid call that 'generalisation' and claim it is meaningless, but you ask anyone in marketing whether or not they can predict human behaviour and they'll all tell you the same thing.

It is easier to predict what a million people will do than it is to predict what one person will do.

This fact underpins human societies. It is so reliably true that people owe their jobs to it. The key is that the more people in the sample, the more reliable the sample size. This applies to any statistical analysis.
 

TheParraboy

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I don't care about Alan's political view is , it is the way he uses his power/bullying tactics along with lies to express his views. This morning he was claiming Australia's un bid was costing $3billion as we have been giving aid to certain countries or his speech at Canberra last year at the protest convey where he was claiming 100's of trucks were being stopped at the boarder to prevent the protest (which was not true).

Listen to his show if someone disagrees with his view he bully's them or refuses to listen to their point of view.

this
 

bartman

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Where did I claim life is simple? The human experience is so diversely complex that it can only be quantified by statistics.
Pretty much in the second sentence of that quote.

The paranoid call that 'generalisation' and claim it is meaningless, but you ask anyone in marketing whether or not they can predict human behaviour and they'll all tell you the same thing.
I wouldn't piss on anyone in marketing if they were on fire, let alone ask the grubs any questions.

It is easier to predict what a million people will do than it is to predict what one person will do.
None of that waffle about predictions has anything to do with making up conclusions/facts about motives behind past behaviour from the quantified statistics. The quantities in the statistics themselves are fine for what they are, it's the analysis that is subjective and contains traps for the overzealous.

This fact underpins human societies. It is so reliably true that people owe their jobs to it. The key is that the more people in the sample, the more reliable the sample size. This applies to any statistical analysis.
Maybe so, but the comment above about the difference between predicting the future and explaining the past and passing off guesses as facts still applies.
 

Poupou Escobar

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Pretty much in the second sentence of that quote.

Which quote?

I wouldn't piss on anyone in marketing if they were on fire, let alone ask the grubs any questions.

Sounds like a generalisation. :roll:

None of that waffle about predictions has anything to do with making up conclusions/facts about motives behind past behaviour from the quantified statistics. The quantities in the statistics themselves are fine for what they are, it's the analysis that is subjective and contains traps for the overzealous.

Maybe so, but the comment above about the difference between predicting the future and explaining the past and passing off guesses as facts still applies.

Did I mention there is another profession that owes its existence to interpreting facts? Clearly there are reliable inferences to combinations of data.

If this wasn't the case there would be no professional analysts.

You obviously think you live in a world where everything can still remain hidden (like peoples' motives ;-)). This is not the case, and the people most afraid of this are the ones who shriek loudest against generalisations and, dare I say it, statistics. :lol:
 

bartman

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Which quote?
Um, the one I quoted in my reply, the non-bold second sentence answered your own question in the first sentence.

Sounds like a generalisation. :roll:
But at least I'm owning it as an opinion, rather than pretending to all and sundry that it's an established fact.

Did I mention there is another profession that owes its existence to interpreting facts? Clearly there are reliable inferences to combinations of data.

If this wasn't the case there would be no professional analysts.
I think you did mention something... but none of that refutes the claim that any analysis (even of objective data) is subjective by nature.

You obviously think you live in a world where everything can still remain hidden (like peoples' motives ;-)). This is not the case, and the people most afraid of this are the ones who shriek loudest against generalisations and, dare I say it, statistics. :lol:
Hardly, I love statistics and thinking about underlying motives. I just don't pretend that statistics somehow subjectively prove any hidden things about past behaviour like motives, because I acknowledge that any non-numerical analysis will add the bias of the analyst. Hence through an appreciation of statistics I make sure that I don't make nonsense claims about unrelated matters off the back of good statistics - without presenting them as opinion rather than fact.
 

Poupou Escobar

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Um, the one I quoted in my reply, the non-bold second sentence answered your own question in the first sentence.

It has nothing to do with it.


But at least I'm owning it as an opinion, rather than pretending to all and sundry that it's an established fact.

So you don't have a problem with generalisation when you do it?

I think you did mention something... but none of that refutes the claim that any analysis (even of objective data) is subjective by nature.

Everything is subjective. That doesn't make everything equally as valid.

Hardly, I love statistics and thinking about underlying motives. I just don't pretend that statistics somehow subjectively prove any hidden things about past behaviour like motives, because I acknowledge that any non-numerical analysis will add the bias of the analyst. Hence through an appreciation of statistics I make sure that I don't make nonsense claims about unrelated matters off the back of good statistics - without presenting them as opinion rather than fact.

If it is quantifiable by statistics, then a reliable analysis can be made.

And if you don't like the assessment you can call it a guess, put your hands back over years and shout "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA...."

You wouldn't be the first. ;-)
 

bartman

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It has nothing to do with it.
Your claim that life is so diversely complex that it can only be quantified by statistics, is simplistic imo.

So you don't have a problem with generalisation when you do it?
When I am presenting one as my opinion rather than pretending a generalisation as objective fact, then no.

Everything is subjective. That doesn't make everything equally as valid.
So your analysis of statistics is subjective now? Glad to hear the admission...

If it is quantifiable by statistics, then a reliable analysis can be made.
But the analysis is not free from bias or subjectivity, like you seemed to be arguing.

And if you don't like the assessment you can call it a guess, put your hands back over years and shout "LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA...."

You wouldn't be the first. ;-)
And finishing with the Alan Jones-style approach to "facts", just to illustrate my above point about bias and subjectivity of analysis. Pull him off the BBQ, he's done!
 

Poupou Escobar

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Your claim that life is so diversely complex that it can only be quantified by statistics, is simplistic imo.

Only in the sense that any sentence is simplistic. You should thank me for using language you can understand.

When I am presenting one as my opinion rather than pretending a generalisation as objective fact, then no.

Any statement we make is an opinion. Even the things we think are facts.

Do you really want to argue semantics?

So your analysis of statistics is subjective now? Glad to hear the admission...

Why should I admit anything? If you weren't so insecure you would take it as a given.

But the analysis is not free from bias or subjectivity, like you seemed to be arguing.

I reckon I 'seem to be' saying a lot of things from your point of view.

That will remain your problem.

And finishing with the Alan Jones-style approach to "facts", just to illustrate my above point about bias and subjectivity of analysis. Pull him off the BBQ, he's done!

How about your Alan Jones-style dismissal of an opposing viewpoint! You get ten out of ten for wankerism.
 

Gronk

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This is the article that got him sacked.

#like

Kingdom crumbling as Jones loses fear factor



David Penberthy

Monday, October 01, 2012 (5:52pm)


THE motto by which Alan Jones lives his life is unravelling. The qualities he trades on - blind loyalty, fear and commercial power - no longer function.


Towards the end of his life he is flailing about like some deposed Eastern European dictator, demanding respect and fairness when he has displayed little, claiming victimhood when he has engaged in an act of victimisation which even by his standards sets an abysmal new low.
I have had a few private dinners over the years with the Sydney broadcaster. It is a rite of passage when you edit a newspaper in Sydney, as I did, to pay homage to the man and bask dutifully in his perceived greatness.
I?ve been on his show several times and 2GB hundreds of times. I?ve been to his apartment in the ?Toaster? building, where his servant prepared chicken and celery sandwiches with the crusts cut off, and served Irish Breakfast Tea in the finest Wedgewood china.
Jones? mantra in his personal dealings is ?pick and stick?. It is both a promise and a demand of unwavering loyalty, by which those in his circle pledge to stick by each other through controversy and scandal. Jones is an inveterate letter writer and will put pen to paper to upbraid those he perceives as disloyal or disrespectful. He would probably regard a column such as this as fitting that category. So be it.
His comments about Julia Gillard?s late father were a disgrace. His subsequent apology was pathetic. Anyone with a pinch of decency should now be prepared to man up, as Jones laughably declared at the start of Sunday?s press conference, and tell Jones where he can stick his pick and stick.
In order to understand Jones you first have to recognise that he is defined by a deep-seated siege mentality, where life is regarded as a permanent ideological war and those around him are drawn up on the lists he assembles in his mind of friends and foes. The contradiction of Jones, who has no real personal life at all, is that when he is not broadcasting he busies himself with generous acts for put-upon individuals and families, doing unpaid charity work, writing letters to ministers on behalf of people who are illiterate or uneducated.
This kindly work fuels his sense of indignation when he is at the centre of scandal.
What he has never been able to recognise is that the kindly nature of his private work is often eclipsed by the sometimes desperately unkind or unpleasant nature of his public conduct.
At every controversial juncture in his career Jones has acted as if he is the victim of a conspiracy.
In his public life Jones instinctively regards any attack on him not as the result of his own wrongdoing, but the small-minded hatefulness of his persecutors.
This was the case with the cash-for-comment episode, a dictionary definition scandal, in which Jones and 2GB were paid large sums of money by the Australian Banking Association to go easy on the major banks. It is hard to imagine a greater betrayal of the people who live on what Jones and his former stablemate John Laws liked to call ?Struggle Street? than parroting praise for the banks to a working-class and pensioner audience.
Yet Jones never grasped the moral bankruptcy of his conduct, regarding his pursuit by ACMA as an appalling example of the tall poppy syndrome.
This typical sense of persecution underscored Sunday?s press conference, at which Jones breezed over his apology to launch a fresh attack on the government of Ju-Liar, as he likes to call her.
Laughably, he took aim at News Limited for having the audacity to report his speech - as if it is the media?s job to ignore one of the most powerful people in Australia make the most appalling remarks in front of our next generation of political leaders and current members of the parliament.
As a result of the Gillard remarks, Jones has found himself with few friends. Many of those who are in the pick-and-stick club, who in the past would habitually declare that their friend had been fitted up or taken out of context, have unequivocally declared his comments a disgrace.
Jones has historically cowed politicians into appearing on his show. While Jones is Australia?s archest conservative he does not as a matter of course go after all Labor MPs. Some, such as Bob Carr when he was NSW premier, managed to get an often favourable run by paying homage to Jones and stroking his ego.
Conversely, others were bludgeoned into appearing after sustained on-air attacks, only to relent for an interview where the shellacking was even worse.
It has now dawned on politicians of the centre and the left that they should no longer worry about their Jones strategy. It has taken a long time for this penny to drop. The reality has always been that Jones? audience does not comprise many swinging voters. He is preaching to the angry and the converted, many of whom keep listening to 2GB because they are too frail to get off the sofa to change the dial.
As the Kyle Sandilands sagas have demonstrated, the only currency which radio networks understand is the advertising dollar, and it is here where the ramifications from his remarks could be most acute.
Six big advertisers have confirmed they will not advertise on his show, some have said they will boycott the entire network, and more will surely follow.
Jones, who is fond of talking of himself in the third person, lashed out at the Twitter campaign for an advertising boycott, and talked about how horrible it was (and it is) that some have wished his cancer to return.
?This is the best way to neutralise and silence Alan Jones. They use this as an excuse to silence Alan Jones,? he said.
It?s almost as bad as saying a woman?s father died of shame over their daughter. This is karma writ large. Alan Jones is getting everything he deserves.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailyteleg...kingdom_crumbling_as_jones_loses_fear_factor/
 

bartman

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Ouch, that's one almighty serve for Alan!

Only in the sense that any sentence is simplistic.
I don't agree.
Any statement we make is an opinion. Even the things we think are facts.

Do you really want to argue semantics?
No, I agree with what you've said there.
Why should I admit anything? If you weren't so insecure you would take it as a given.
I do take it as a given. But after the style of statements you usually trade in on here, It's just amusing to watch you squirm.
I reckon I 'seem to be' saying a lot of things from your point of view.

That will remain your problem.
Hardly a problem for me. It was your nonsense argument after all.
How about your Alan Jones-style dismissal of an opposing viewpoint! You get ten out of ten for wankerism.
So out of the two of us I'm the one that dismisses other viewpoints? Ok then...

Enjoy your night Poupou.
 

Eelementary

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I find shock jockeys to be very interesting people. The common consensus seems to be that they are unintelligent and egocentric - and yet they are able to have such large followings that they garner public support from all corners of their respective fields. It is a paradox, of sorts - do shock jocks have such inordinate amounts of charisma that they can talk their way out of just about anything? Are people so simple-minded in the modern world that a seemingly-witless shock jock can generate support without batting the proverbial eyelid? Is it both? I'm not sure, but what I am pretty sure of is this: shock jockeys, for all their appalling, apparent stupidity and lack of humanity, are smarter than your average bear. Being able to manipulate people in such a way is quite remarkable, in my opinion.
 

Kornstar

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I find shock jockeys to be very interesting people. The common consensus seems to be that they are unintelligent and egocentric - and yet they are able to have such large followings that they garner public support from all corners of their respective fields. It is a paradox, of sorts - do shock jocks have such inordinate amounts of charisma that they can talk their way out of just about anything? Are people so simple-minded in the modern world that a seemingly-witless shock jock can generate support without batting the proverbial eyelid? Is it both? I'm not sure, but what I am pretty sure of is this: shock jockeys, for all their appalling, apparent stupidity and lack of humanity, are smarter than your average bear. Being able to manipulate people in such a way is quite remarkable, in my opinion.

Same can be said for pop acts such as Gaga and One Direction.......

Gaga writes a song that sounds almost exactly the same as a Madonna song, yet all the sheeple bought the single blindly........

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said people are simple!

I listen to AM radio all the time and if I can't get the BSB in the morning for whatever reason I will listen to AJ, mainly for the laugh. He is a rude old man who knows his audience, Laws is no different. They are supremely egotistical who do not like to be challenged and love nothing more than to feel superior.......
 

Eelementary

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Same can be said for pop acts such as Gaga and One Direction.......

Gaga writes a song that sounds almost exactly the same as a Madonna song, yet all the sheeple bought the single blindly........

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said people are simple!

I listen to AM radio all the time and if I can't get the BSB in the morning for whatever reason I will listen to AJ, mainly for the laugh. He is a rude old man who knows his audience, Laws is no different. They are supremely egotistical who do not like to be challenged and love nothing more than to feel superior.......

I do think in many ways people are simple - perhaps due to laziness or sheer availability, many people find rather simple, unimaginative music to be a fit for them.

But some of these shock jocks have openly intelligent people eating out of the palms of their hands - many a reference is made to Kyle Sandilands, for instance. Now, because his os the station I listen to at work, I can listen to him prattle on with Jackie O every morning. But what surprises me is that, whilst he isn't the most articulate or 'bright' of people, by the way he talks and even in his jokes to callers I can see that the man has some semblance of intelligence. And whether he is loved or hated, he has some sort of charisma, too.

It puzzles me why people continue to bite and fall for shock jocks' stances over issues and comments - their entire objective is to divide the population and outrage many whilst provoking certain discussions. And they do it to a tee, because journalists then go to their blogs and columns and write about them. One wouldn't feed an internet troll (provided one's clever enough to see through it, of course!) - why would one feed these people's egos by making them the spotlight of our attention?

In the immortal words of Lisa Simpson and Paul Anka, "Just don't look!"
 

Kornstar

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I do think in many ways people are simple - perhaps due to laziness or sheer availability, many people find rather simple, unimaginative music to be a fit for them.

But some of these shock jocks have openly intelligent people eating out of the palms of their hands - many a reference is made to Kyle Sandilands, for instance. Now, because his os the station I listen to at work, I can listen to him prattle on with Jackie O every morning. But what surprises me is that, whilst he isn't the most articulate or 'bright' of people, by the way he talks and even in his jokes to callers I can see that the man has some semblance of intelligence. And whether he is loved or hated, he has some sort of charisma, too.

It puzzles me why people continue to bite and fall for shock jocks' stances over issues and comments - their entire objective is to divide the population and outrage many whilst provoking certain discussions. And they do it to a tee, because journalists then go to their blogs and columns and write about them. One wouldn't feed an internet troll (provided one's clever enough to see through it, of course!) - why would one feed these people's egos by making them the spotlight of our attention?

In the immortal words of Lisa Simpson and Paul Anka, "Just don't look!"

I think even smart people will relate to these people because they agree with what they say on several of their agendas.......

I'm not saying some aren't intelligent but Jones, Laws & Hadley are ordinary blokes you would meet at a pub with strong opinions......I cringe at some of the things they say.

Poupou seems a lot like Sandilands to me actually. Intelligent but the need to belittle people and feel superior will get people off side.
 
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