The 2014/15 Off Season Thread

[Noise]

And waving an eels flag is not a 'political or religious' cause. The Melbourne storm are not the australian or foreign government. Your example is dumb and Cant be compared with terrorism or what happend in Martin
Place

 

[bartman]

@ Noise

In my opinion (rather than the Criminal Code) terrorism is a bit more organised than one man with mental health issues acting alone with a poorly thought out "plan".

That seems to be how most people I hang out with think of terrorist threats... it could be just us though?

 

[Noise]

@ Noise

In my opinion (rather than the Criminal Code) terrorism is a bit more organised than one man with mental health issues acting alone with a poorly thought out "plan".

That seems to be how most people I hang out with think of terrorist threats... it could be just us though?

Fair enough. I think the criminal definition is pretty spot on. A terrorist can work alone and they are all obviously crazy/mentally ill.

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

He has been protesting against Australia's pro-US foreign policy for years.

How would you classify an estranged father who has been in one of the more extreme 'Dad's Rights' groups who take hostages to bring attention to what he believes are unjust family court laws etc?

Or the farmer up near Glen Innes, who had been protesting against the EPA for years, then decided to ambush and shoot dead an EPA officer?

 

[hindy111]

Question is Bartman- Was he motivated/influenced by terror organization? You would think so.

 

[bartman]

@Noise
Yeah... Other things that count against it being legitimate terrorism for me (and others I know) are that the guy had nothing really to do with IS (as a religious or political cause) other than declaring himself a member the day before and not even getting the flag right; and that his demands of the government (general as they were) were personal, long-held and pre-existed his involvement with his adopted ideology.

But yeah, it doesn't really matter - his acts were terrible regardless, whether mainly due to mental illness or various definitions of terrorism.

@Hindy
I actually read his website after they'd revealed his identity and before they made the ISP take it down, and I think he was more influenced bythe outcome of his court case/appeal a day or two prior, rather than by the adopted ideology itself - he wasn't part of the organisation as such, IS didn't even know who this raving loony was.

 

[hindy111]

How would you classify an estranged father who has been in one of the more extreme 'Dad's Rights' groups who take hostages to bring attention to what he believes are unjust family court laws etc?

Or the farmer up near Glen Innes, who had been protesting against the EPA for years, then decided to ambush and shoot dead an EPA officer?

Did any of them stop a city? Did they make demands to speak to the government? Did they claim to be part of a terrorist organization?

 

[strider]

hindy111 terrorises this form with his penrith propaganda on a daily basis

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Did any of them stop a city? Did they make demands to speak to the government? Did they claim to be part of a terrorist organization?

Are any of those necessary to be a terrorist?

 

[Noise]

Are any of those necessary to be a terrorist?

According to the Australian government, yes.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

@ Noise

In my opinion (rather than the Criminal Code) terrorism is a bit more organised than one man with mental health issues acting alone with a poorly thought out "plan".

That seems to be how most people I hang out with think of terrorist threats... it could be just us though?

That denies the importance and effectiveness of 'lone wolf' terrorism. AQ has been calling for this kind of thing for ten years. It's too hard for these groups to train and coordinate attackers anywhere other than shit holes like Syria. So they have been trying to radicalise and empower disaffected Western Muslims. Their message is 'Don't bother forming large groups and trying to buy explosives and doing other things that will get you noticed and caught. Grab a mate and a couple of knives and go and stab twenty merkins down at the mall. Don't bother trying to get away, make yourself a martyr instead.'

 

[Poupou Escobar]

How would you classify an estranged father who has been in one of the more extreme 'Dad's Rights' groups who take hostages to bring attention to what he believes are unjust family court laws etc?

Or the farmer up near Glen Innes, who had been protesting against the EPA for years, then decided to ambush and shoot dead an EPA officer?

Both terrorism, for sure. How would you classify it?

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Both terrorism, for sure. How would you classify it?

Yes, I think I'd agree. Plenty wouldn't though.

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

According to the Australian government, yes.

Really?

To restate the quote from Hindy111's post citing one the defn. of an Act of Terrorism currently employed in Aust:

?An act or threat, intended to advance a political, ideological or religious cause by coercing or intimidating an Australian or foreign government or the public. This action must cause serious harm to people or property, create a serious risk to the health and safety to the public, or seriously disrupt trade, critical infrastructure or electronic systems?



Point 1...the final sentence lists a set of conditions, only one of which needs to be satisfied to be consistent with the definition (given that the first condition holds). Hence the word *or* in the list.

There is no requirement that a city is disrupted. There is no requirement that a person is or claims to be member of a 'terrorist group' (we usually decide who a terrorist group is after they do something that we decide is terrorism), and there is no mention of making demands to speak to the government.. These may be things that terrorists do, but they are not a necessary part of being a terrorist.

 

[bartman]

What's the saying... one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? Depends who is doing the defining. For example, our army personnel could also be described by some as terrorists, in relation to some of their activities on foreign soil.

 

[Suitman]

Oh dear.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

The ADF tries to force social or political change through the threat of violence? I suppose you could say that describes some elements of counterinsurgency/stabilisation operations (support your elected government or we'll 'arrest' you) but that sort of thing is far more carrot than stick. We spent f**king millions on schools and roads and shit trying to boost the legitimacy of the (pro-Western) Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan in the eyes of the people of Uruzgan. Everything we did for them had to look like it was coming from the Afghan government.

But you're right in the sense that the initial invasion of Afghanistan was a threat to the Afghan warlords (and everybody else) not to provide safe haven to terrorist organisations. This is why most definitions of terrorism don't include one state overtly threatening another. That's just geopolitics.

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Yeh, I'd have thought that Nelson Mandela is a better example of the "one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist" stuff.

 

[Casper The Ghost]

[youtube]jIukrdRhnpw[/youtube]

 

[Twizzle]

Under the Criminal Code Act an “Act of Terrorism” is defined as the following ..

“An act or threat, intended to advance a political, ideological or religious cause by coercing or intimidating an Australian or foreign government or the public. This action must cause serious harm to people or property, create a serious risk to the health and safety to the public, or seriously disrupt trade, critical infrastructure or electronic systems”

· He acted by taking hostages at gun point
· He was displaying a religious flag (Islamic symbols – Shahada creed)
· He held the hostages to coerce our PM
· He caused serious harm by killing atleast 1 person not to mention the risk he placed the others under
· He disrupted the biggest and busiest City in Australia

So the ADF are terrorists ?

Who'd have thought