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The annual finals system debate thread

Which System ARL 95/96 or McIntyre

  • ARL 95/96 which the AFL use now

    Votes: 93 59.6%
  • McIntyre System

    Votes: 63 40.4%

  • Total voters
    156

NK Arsenal

Juniors
Messages
1,854
The AFL way is so much better then the mcintyre 8 we currently have.

If we had the AFL top 8 we would have the following teams playing this week:
First Qualifying Final: Storm v Knights (Friday pm)
First Elimination Final: Sea Eagles v Eels (Saturday, 6:30 pm)
Second Elimination Final: Dragons v Raiders (Saturday, 8:30pm)
Second Qualifying Final: Bulldogs v Broncos (Sunday, 4:00 pm)

NB: Times and Dates are the current NRL ones used.
 

*Paul*

Juniors
Messages
2,151
Raoul Duke said:
FOR f**kS SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Are they gonna ask this same goddamn question every f**king finals season?!!!!!!!!!!!
Yep, and no-one ever seems to figure out that it's not supposed to be a fair way of deciding the premiers - top 5 does this, top does 8 that - doesn't matter, it's existence inherently unfair. The methods are merely a device to *simulate* a fair progression, and keep the punters interested. Which actually works out quite well, but it shouldn't be forgotten.
 

bobbis

Juniors
Messages
798
The top 8 system the AFL uses is the extremely similar to the old top 5 system, its just 2 systems of the old top 5 system played from the 2nd week onwards with the 2 winners meeting at the end. The old top 5 system was 2v3,4v5 then in week 2 1v2, 3v4 then week 3 2v3 then finally 1v2, the AFL top 8 system is the same just played as 2 groups of the system without week 1 and then the winners meet at the end.

Its a vastly superior system to the Mc Intyre one which is inherently crap, especially if you apply home ground advanatage to it as the AFL does up until the gf. For starters its just stupid that teams 3 and 4 can be elminated in weeks 1. Next in many instances 4v5 is a completely meaningless game, if all the highest placed teams wins except 6 beats 3 then team 4 gets rewarded with a match against team 3 while team 5 for losing gets matched against team 6. Its just illogical.

I think all finals games up till the gf should be home games too with the exception that sydney teams play in the bigger capacity stadiums. Almost every1 thinks the higher ranked teams should get more reward, therefore home ground advanatage should apply.
 

eels_fan_01

Bench
Messages
3,470
Keep the top 8 and the current system. Even though people have mentioned that 8th normally wins 50% of their games they normally go out first week anyway. Although you may not like the system you cant tell me that the best team hasnt won the grand final under this system, every team thats good enough has won it.
 

Kurt Angle

First Grade
Messages
9,658
Raiders Plight said:
i like that system, except if 1 wins then 4 v 5 becomes meaningless, as they both get a second bite win or lose.

That's why 4v5 always plays on the friday night, and 1v8 plays on the sunday.

The only apparent downside to you lot prefering the AFL system is that 3rd can get knocked out ?

3rd plays 7th, instead of 2nd, and has home ground advantage instead of playing the the 2nd places home ground and has to rely on other results to be eliminated.....if they lose from there, they deserve to get knocked out.

The pther argument about "St. and Eels being knocked out last year" is an absolutely redundant argument, they were knocked out in the final 4, it would of occured under either system, no advantage would of been gained by that system.
 

Dr Crane

Live Update Team
Messages
19,531
If the MacIntyre system is so inflexible re: times - what happens if the Warriors finish 2nd?

Would they have to play at Mt Smart Stadium at 10:30pm NZ Time?
 

Kurt Angle

First Grade
Messages
9,658
Well we can kick the warriors out of the comp and put in a central coast team.

That'll ensure no timezone problems.....
 

bender

Juniors
Messages
2,231
I get sick of this every year. There is no doubt or question. top 5 is the best, top 8 GlennC system is the second best. It is a load of rubbish that the top 8 adds interest, it takes it away. Every year we have ever had it, it is decided two weeks early and even the teams who are still a mathematical chance 2 weeks out have worked out that they are no hope of winning the premiership. All it does is take excitement away from the best teams. This years last 2 weeks (like nearly every other year) whould have been edge of the seat stuff trying to get a top 3 or 5 spot not the hitout for the finals it has become. And nowadays, i have no doubt that a top 5 would sell out at each and every venue (or virtually anyway) as opposed to the top 8 because all the media attention is focussed on one or two games instead of 4 games. Hass put things perfectly.

And by the way, for those who dont realise, the AFL system is as ridiculous as any system. It is very easy to lose one game all season and not make the grand final, while the side that scrapes into 8 with a 50-50 or worse win loss record, goes on to win the whole thing, without ever beating you. Absolutely ridiculous.
 

Dr Crane

Live Update Team
Messages
19,531
Kurt Angle said:
Well we can kick the warriors out of the comp and put in a central coast team.

That'll ensure no timezone problems.....


Well, thats an option. Shall we ressurrect Glebe too? :p



But a more realistic answer is?
 

NK Arsenal

Juniors
Messages
1,854
Now that the finals are upon us, the remaining eight teams will be planning how they can navigate their way through to the Grand Final on the first Sunday of October. Since 1999 clubs have been accustomed to getting there through the finals format known as the McIntyre system. Hopefully this will be the last season of its use. It's time for a change to the final eight system used by the AFL. Interestingly, the system now used by the AFL was originally under the operation of Rugby League back in the mid '90s but for some reason League decided to copy the AFL who were using the McIntyre system only for the other code to later decide it was not for them.

The difference between the systems are as follows:

In the first week of the McIntyre system come the following matchups

Team 4 (Newcastle) v Team 5 (Manly)
Team 3 (Brisbane) v Team 6 (St.George-Illawarra)
Team 2 (Canterbury) v Team 7 (Canberra)
Team 1 (Melbourne) v Team 8 (Parramatta)

The bottom two ranked losers are eliminated after the first weekend. Under this system if all the lower ranked sides defeated their higher ranked opponents, Team 3 (Brisbane) and Team 4 (Newcastle) are the ones to be eliminated in the first week. This goes against the myth that finishing in the top four guarantees a side a second chance.

Compare this with the AFL system that has the following opening weekend match ups.

Team 1 (Melbourne) v Team 4 (Newcastle)
Team 2 (Canterbury) v Team 3 (Brisbane)
Team 5 (Manly) v Team 8 (Parramatta)
Team 6 (St.George-Illawarra) v Team 7 (Canberra)

While Teams 3 and 4 would not host a final in the first week, they nevertheless are playing for the right to have a definite week off and have the benefit of a guaranteed second chance, entitlements which they fully deserve but do not get under the McIntyre system. Only Teams 1 and 2 have the guarantee of two bites at the cherry. Under the AFL system, Teams 1 and 2 still have the benefit of hosting finals in the opening week while the bottom four sides are left to play in the elimination matches.

It has to be said the match ups under the AFL system look more balanced unlike the usual Team 1 v 8 scenario that League has had over the years which usually results in a one sided contest.

The problem I have with the McIntyre system is that it does not reward the top ranked sides (in particular Teams 3 and 4) as much as the AFL system. Supporters of the McIntyre system say the format provides greater reward for the top four teams because in the first week they play lower ranked teams than what they would in the AFL system. Fair enough, but they would get no less benefit under the AFL system. If anything, there is more incentive for the top sides to win under the AFL system. Take for instance this weekend's games. If short priced Melbourne and Canterbury win their matches, both third placed Brisbane and fourth placed Newcastle, win or lose, will play the next weekend regardless of how their matches end up. The same goes for fifth ranked Manly and sixth placed St.George-Illawarra. However under the AFL system, if Brisbane and Newcastle won their matches, they would be guaranteed a week off and progress directly to the Preliminary Finals. Brisbane and Newcastle would be playing for a guaranteed prize. By finishing in the lower half of the eight, the Dragons and Sea Eagles would find themselves in sudden death matches with far greater stakes. As for the top two sides, Melbourne and Canterbury, they would be treated the same under either system, if they won they get a week off, if they lost they would be required to play the following weekend.

Time and time again with the McIntyre system we have had sides eliminated from the finals in the first week (eg Melbourne 2000, Sydney Roosters 2001, St George-Illawarra 2004) not necessarily just for losing their matches, but because another side lost theirs. When a team is eliminated from the finals it should be when the final siren sounds in the match they are participating in, not one from another match.

Overall I think the AFL system is easier to explain to supporters and ensures every game within it is meaningful. The NRL would still retain the same number of matches that it currently has in the McIntyre system so there would be no chance of revenue loss. The finals series is the highlight of the Rugby League club calendar where clubs' entire seasons are on the line. For these reasons it is time the NRL changed the finals system, after all, it did serve us well the last time we had it.

http://www.rleague.com/db/article.php?id=26467

Fantastic article and I agree with it 100%.
 

Gene Krupa

Referee
Messages
20,216
Agree 100%. Teams 3 & 4 don't deserve to be knocked out in the first week. They deserve a second chance no matter if they win or lose. The only incentive to finish 3 or 4 is a home game.
 

griff

Bench
Messages
3,322
I agree, but you have to remember back before we had the McIntyre system, there was a lot of controversy because teams 5 and 6 got a home semi, and teams 3 and 4 didn't. In AFL, home ground advantage isn't as important as many more teams share the same grounds.
 

yobbo84

Coach
Messages
10,795
The AFL system sucks. Finishing 4th is the same as finishing first. The only advantage you get is a home semi.
 

dimitri

First Grade
Messages
7,980
I dont agree!

The afl system gives the top 4 an "artificial second chance" by making them play the best teams in week one

The McIntyre system rewards the top teams by giving them the chance to qualify by taking on the lower teams

I like the mcIntyre system!

The first week creates a huge amount of excitement as the result in all games is vital
 

griff

Bench
Messages
3,322
But the problem with McIntyre is that each game does not have the same thing on the line for both teams. And each team doesn't have their own destiny in their own hands, it also depends on the way other results go.
 

Mr Saab

Referee
Messages
27,762
simon says said:
AGREED.Current system sucks and the AFL have got theirs spot on IMO.

ARL had this "AFL" system in 1995/6 and there were complaints then about it.
No system is perfect....well except for the top 5 system, but thats gone forever
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

Referee
Messages
22,132
i love the mcintyre system, but i feel there should be home state finals system.

The 3rd and 4th Highest ranked winners from the first week should have the opportunity to play the second week's final in their home state/nation(NZ) (provided that the stadium is 40K plus.)

And then the same rule should apply for the 3rd week of finals. With the 1st and second highest ranked winners from the 1st week benefiting. The GF shuold ba played at telstra. Under my proposed system, this is how things would work in this year's finals series (if it is assumed that the higher ranked teams win (winning teams are in bold))

1st Week


Newcastle
V Manly @ EAS.
Broncos V Dragons @ Suncorp.
Dogs V Raiders @ Telstra.
Storm V Parra @ Olympic.

Parra and Raiders knocked out, and Storm and Dogs through to 3rd week.

2nd Week

Newcastle V Dragons @ Aussie.
Broncos V Manly @ Suncorp.

3rd Week

Storm V Knights @ Dome or MCG.
Dogs V Broncos @ Aussie or Telstra.

4th Week

Storm V Dogs @ Telstra


The advantages of this system are numerous, it is often argued that teams place 3-6 in the first week just play each other in the second week usually, because 7 and 8 lose. But under this system, the winners of the first week are all rewarded with home finals either in the second week or the third week. This system will also ensure that QLD blockbusters suck as Titans V Broncos etc. will not be played to half full stadiums in sydney, instead they will be played at the greated RL venue in the world.

I can see no disadv. with this system, but currently it may not be logistically acceptable for the NRL.
 

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