The annual finals system debate thread

[Tom Shines]

Any system where the team is relying on the results of others to progress is a problem. At least with the 5 v 8 / 6 v 7 system, you know that you MUST win to stay in the competition.

I also have a problem with the 4 v 5 game, and the fact that if two of 6-7-8 upset the favourites, the loser of that match is eliminated first week, whilst the winner goes straight through to week three. That seems too big a prize on that single match. Imagine if you go bounced out in golden point in that situation.

But as a 50uff$ fan, I guess me talking about semi finals is a complete waste of time...

 

[undertaker]

The bottom line is this week, using the AFL system, would you have preferred to see:

Dragons vs Knights at SFS
Warriors vs Cowboys at Mt Smart
Sea Eagles vs Broncos at SFS
Storm vs Tigers at AAMI

Also, there's no guarantee that the Sea Eagles/Broncos game would've drawn better than last night's game at the SFS. I don't know how the Warriors/Cowboys game would've drawn, given that the World Cup is on over there. Storm/Tigers would've got more than today's game and Dragons/Knights would've got at least 20000 (and may have been the highest drawing game of the week)

What days those games would've been played on, I don't know...

 

[Kid]

Couldn't be bothered reading back , but i don't care what team you go for.......if you finish top 4, it is ridiculous, i say ridiculous to be worried about being eliminated in week 1 of the finals. It's worse these days because it's bloody tough to reach the top 4 given there is a salary cap in place unlike the old days.

 

[the rebel]

I hope they get rid of the McIntyre system at some stage. As a Warriors supporter I am embarrassed the team has another shot this weekend. I have been watching league since 1989 and I believe this round of playoff matches would be worst I have seen.

I do miss the top 5 system and would love it to come back. There were some absolute cracker finals matches in the 90s. If they don't want to bring back a top 5 system, how about a top seven system like 1997.

 

[Kid]

I hope they get rid of the McIntyre system at some stage. As a Warriors supporter I am embarrassed the team has another shot this weekend. I have been watching league since 1989 and I believe this round of playoff matches would be worst I have seen.

I do miss the top 5 system and would love it to come back. There were some absolute cracker finals matches in the 90s. If they don't want to bring back a top 5 system, how about a top seven system like 1997.

Mate i think top 8 is good. It's the mechanics of it that suck. Bottom 4 should be playing off to stay alive, top 4 should be playing off for a rest.

 

[PARRA_FAN]

The bottom line is this week, using the AFL system, would you have preferred to see:

Dragons vs Knights at SFS
Warriors vs Cowboys at Mt Smart
Sea Eagles vs Broncos at SFS
Storm vs Tigers at AAMI

Also, there's no guarantee that the Sea Eagles/Broncos game would've drawn better than last night's game at the SFS. I don't know how the Warriors/Cowboys game would've drawn, given that the World Cup is on over there. Storm/Tigers would've got more than today's game and Dragons/Knights would've got at least 20000 (and may have been the highest drawing game of the week)

What days those games would've been played on, I don't know...

Interesting points, the Dragons/Knights game wouldve drawn a big crowd.

I think the Manly/Brisbane game wouldve drawn more than last nights game, considering it wouldve been Lockyers last game in Sydney.

I still think the Warriors game wouldve got a big crowd, probably close to 20,000. But the crowd wouldnt ve been much different for the Storm game.

See the old ARL system, not AFL system, had two games at SFS, one game in Brisbane and one at Parramatta Stadium.

5 V 8 , Parramatta
6 V 7, SFS
2 V 3, Brisbane
1 V 4, SFS

The ARL wanted to introduce a neutral finals, spread the game around, I cant imagine what sort of crowd wouldve been had 2 v 3 been a non QLD team, so it was just lucky Brisbane played in both 95 and 96 as 2 and 3.

Still having top 4 play each other guarantees another week for them, and the bottom 4 we at least know after the game, the loser is gone.

 

[firechild]

Think of it this way. Melbourne and Manly got to play Newcastle and North Queensland respectively for a week off. Under the ARL/AFL system they would have had to beat Wests and Brisbane respectively. The current system almost guarantees the top 2 sides easy passage to week 3. Sure, Melbourne v Wests and Manly v Brisbane would have made more entertaining games but the top 2 sides do not get rewarded as much. Also, who would care about the other 2 games considering it is highly unlikely the premiers will come from this lot?

 

[Hoofhearted]

Also, who would care about the other 2 games considering it is highly unlikely the premiers will come from this lot?

The 5 v 8 game in the AFL got 90k today, so to answer your question the supporters of the teams in these games care a lot because it is elimination.

I'm a Tigers fan and can say I would have much preferred them to have a free crack at the storm this week, nothing to lose. If we win we go straight to the prelim at home, we lose and get a home final the following week. As it stands, we beat team 5 who happen to be defending premiers, and our reward is to go into an elimination game against team 6 who have just been flogged by 30. Basically teams 3 - 6 are playing a mini round robin at the moment.

 

[ozjet1]

prolly been discussed somewhere but ive been OS so I'll say it now.

what shit post season system gives some sort benefit to a 6th seed loser?

now the warriors and the broncos, the team that beat them and have one 1 extra game as wll as finishing the regular season as a higher seed, are in the same position this week.

can anyone at the NRL say the word 'pathetic'?

problems with the finals formula extend right through it. for a start, wants the point of playing so many regular season games and then qualifying half of them for the premiership deciding stuff?

 

[firechild]

I still think the key in the Macintyre system is that 1 and 2 get a far better advantage than they would in the ARL/AFL system. Really, all the benefits should be going to these 2 teams. Also teams 7 and 8 are really in a tough fight to progress. In the AFL system, team 7 only has to beat the team 1 place in front of them to progress, in the Macintyre system, they have to beat a team 5 places in front. That's how it should be.

 

[El Diablo]

i think that under the McIntyre System the only team that hasn't made the GF is team 7

that may have something to do with the closeness of the competition though

does anyone know if it's similar in the AFL ince they changed to the ARL system?

be also interesting to see what teams made the AFL GF when they used the McIntyre System

 

[Eels Dude]

There's a lot more variables with the NRL too. The NRL is a lot closer competition than the AFL is. Most years in the NRL the difference between 4th and 8th is just 4 competition points (2 wins) whereas as in the AFL there is a distinct difference between the top 4 and those below. This there was a whopping 22 competition point difference (5 wins and a draw) between 4th and 8th.

 

[El Diablo]

There's a lot more variables with the NRL too. The NRL is a lot closer competition than the AFL is. Most years in the NRL the difference between 4th and 8th is just 4 competition points (2 wins) whereas as in the AFL there is a distinct difference between the top 4 and those below. This there was a whopping 22 competition point difference (5 wins and a draw) between 4th and 8th.

best to talk in wins and not points seeing AFL is 4 points for a win

 

[Eels Dude]

best to talk in wins and not points seeing AFL is 4 points for a win

I mentioned the wins in brackets in case you didn't notice.

 

[El Diablo]

just looked and the last time a team outside the top 4 made the AFL GF was in 1999

in that year they still used the McIntyre system

no idea if it's a coincidence or if it's because their comp doesn't seem to be as close

 

[zman]

My problem with the Mc Intyre system is as follows:

if in the case this ever happened,

8 Knights beat Storm 1
7 Cowboys beat Manly 2
6 Warriors beat Broncos 3
5 Dragons beat Tigers 4

this is what would happen,

teams 5 Dragons and 6 Warriors would have the week off with a home final,

teams 3 Broncos and 4 Tigers would be knocked out after the first week, great advantage for making the 4, dont seem fair to me.

2nd week of the finals would like this,

8 Knights v Manly 2
7 Cowboys v Storm 1

Again how is this fair for the bottom 2 to have home finals while the top 2 get disadvantaged after 1 loss?

the NRL are just lucky this hasnt happened but the year it does they will be the laughing stock of world sport.

give me the AFL system any day over the NRL system. much fairer and better organised.

 

[Eels Dude]

My problem with the Mc Intyre system is as follows:

if in the case this ever happened,

8 Knights beat Storm 1
7 Cowboys beat Manly 2
6 Warriors beat Broncos 3
5 Dragons beat Tigers 4

this is what would happen,

teams 5 Dragons and 6 Warriors would have the week off with a home final,

teams 3 Broncos and 4 Tigers would be knocked out after the first week, great advantage for making the 4, dont seem fair to me.

2nd week of the finals would like this,

8 Knights v Manly 2
7 Cowboys v Storm 1

Again how is this fair for the bottom 2 to have home finals while the top 2 get disadvantaged after 1 loss?

the NRL are just lucky this hasnt happened but the year it does they will be the laughing stock of world sport.

give me the AFL system any day over the NRL system. much fairer and better organised.

Fair points. But to be the devil's advocate... if Team 1 is that much better than team 8 then why would they lose to them at home in the first place?

There are no excuses for the Dragons losing to Parra at Kogorah in '09. It was the Dragons match to lose... same with Warriors v Melbourne in '08. Both minor premiers were given the utmost advantage those years but couldn't do anything with it.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

My problem with the Mc Intyre system is as follows:

if in the case this ever happened,

8 Knights beat Storm 1
7 Cowboys beat Manly 2
6 Warriors beat Broncos 3
5 Dragons beat Tigers 4

this is what would happen,

teams 5 Dragons and 6 Warriors would have the week off with a home final,

teams 3 Broncos and 4 Tigers would be knocked out after the first week, great advantage for making the 4, dont seem fair to me.

2nd week of the finals would like this,

8 Knights v Manly 2
7 Cowboys v Storm 1

Again how is this fair for the bottom 2 to have home finals while the top 2 get disadvantaged after 1 loss?

the NRL are just lucky this hasnt happened but the year it does they will be the laughing stock of world sport.

give me the AFL system any day over the NRL system. much fairer and better organised.

In theory you are right, but the chances of this ever happening are virtually zero so it becomes irrelevant.

Under the McIntyre system no team from the top 4 has ever been eliminated in week one, likewise no team from the bottom 4 has ever received a week off.

Until it actually happens (which it won't) i don't see why people complain about it so much.

 

[zman]

In theory you are right, but the chances of this ever happening are virtually zero so it becomes irrelevant.

Under the McIntyre system no team from the top 4 has ever been eliminated in week one, likewise no team from the bottom 4 has ever received a week off.

Until it actually happens (which it won't) i don't see why people complain about it so much.

im complaining because i dont like the system and you cant say it will never happen.

Everyone is saying how close the comp is and they are better off changing it now before it does happen.

no one has answered whether if this did happened would you be happy if one of your teams was in the 4?

 

[big_matt]

Fair points. But to be the devil's advocate... if Team 1 is that much better than team 8 then why would they lose to them at home in the first place?
.

Anyone can lose to anyone in a single game if they have an off day - that's why they do 5 and 7 game series's in the states.

I agree with the other posts saying the current system is unfair. You have:

1) A team like Storm which has won almost all season in a long season
2) A team like the Knights which had had a mediocre season (same losses as wins)

But the outcome of a single game (where a team could be missing players etc) means that Storm could be sent on the road for the playoffs and Knights get a home final.

Doesn't make sense to throw away 6 months of achievement during the season in one game.

My bigger beef though, is that the 7th and 8th teams shouldnt be involved in the playoffs to start with. Why should a team that has had the same amount of losses as wins (or even 1 more loss than wins) during the season be involved at all? The Manly and Storm crowds in week 1 of the playoffs show you exactly how interested the fans are in seeing these games.

The NBA in the states is laughed at because half of all clubs get in the playoffs "It's harder to miss the playoffs than make them", and I think the NRL is in danger of being the same.