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The annual finals system debate thread

Which System ARL 95/96 or McIntyre

  • ARL 95/96 which the AFL use now

    Votes: 93 59.6%
  • McIntyre System

    Votes: 63 40.4%

  • Total voters
    156
Messages
4,980
Think of the finals like to 100m final at the Olympics. Sure, usain bolt is obviously the fastest man in the world, but he still has to perform on the day and at that time. If he doesn't, and some bloke who qualified 6th manages the race of his life and takes out the gold, then there can be no question that he earned it

Unless that man is Ben Johnson or has Brian Waldren as his accountant :D
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
32,016
It's the worlds most watched and lucrative sports league - don't think too many people are finding it boring.


most watched for sure but the NFL has a better TV rights deal, thanks largely to their play off system and the jewel that is the superbowl
 

big_matt

Juniors
Messages
392
most watched for sure but the NFL has a better TV rights deal, thanks largely to their play off system and the jewel that is the superbowl

Not sure about that. Worldwide the premier league has a much bigger deal (foreign tv rights are over £1bn alone) - but i don't know what the per person viewing figures are. Regardless, I don't think you can say the audience finds it boring when it is as watched as that.

The superbowl is a tv phenomenon - but their playoffs have the same issues we have ie poor viewing figures for some of the first round matchups.
 

RHCP

Bench
Messages
4,784
It's more like the marathon. After 42km, it's "Ok, blokes, that was good, but forget it happened. We're now going to have 100m dash to see who really won"
Or the best eight from the marathon run a new race the next week to see who is the best athlete overall.
 
Messages
2,364
Lucky for me I said the same thing a page ago on the 09.09. I like posters like Masoe that no matter how many times theyre wrong, they still post all guns blazing.

What makes you think I was talking to you?

And how can I be wrong when the McIntyre system being good or bad is subjective?

Lulz
 
Messages
2,364
It's the worlds most watched and lucrative sports league - don't think too many people are finding it boring.

Who cares who watches it? Britney Spears is popular, I don't give a shit.

The English Premier League is boring as f**k. Only 2 teams have won it in the last what, 7 years? I think that number extends to about 4 over 15 years

It's a shit competition and 95% of games are between no-hopers who don't even deserve to be in the comp because they're shit

People who watch it obviously like soccer, which is a boring sport with a boring set up on the whole.

2000-01 end table
Manchester
Arsenal
Liverpool
Leeds
Ipswich
Chelsea

2001-02 end table
Arsenal
Liverpool
Manchester
Newcastle
Leeds
Chelsea

2002-03 end table
Manchester
Arsenal
Newcastle
Chelsea
Liverpool
Blackburn

2003-04 end table
Arsenal
Chelsea
MAnchester
Liverpool
Newcastle
Villa

2004-05 end table
Chelsea
Arsenal
Manchester
Everton
Liverpool
Bolton

2005-06 end table
Chelsea
Manchester
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham
Blackburn

2006-07 end table
Manchester
Chelsea
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham
Everton

2007-08 end table
Manchester
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Everton
Villa

2008-09 end table
Manchester
Liverpool
Chelsea
Arsenal
Everton
Villa

2009-10 end table
Chelsea
Manchester
Arsenal
Tottenham
Man City
Villa

2010-11 end table
Manchester
Chelsea
Man City
Arsenal
Spurs
Liverpool

Are you f**king serious? :lol: Soccer fans are just brainwashed into thinking their sport is the be and end all of their life and that that's nothing wrong with their set up. But it's a f**king joke.

Drying paint has more variation and excitement than the EPL.

Finals systems and salary caps are head and shoulders superior to the backwards EPL. The Premier League and soccer is a sport that never evolved because it's never needed to. Why make something better when its the worlds most popular sport even though it's shit and boring?

The irony being that most soccer neanderthals bag other sports and countries that don't play soccer for using a finals system. Saying it's not fair and is shit..... then turn around and boast about Fifa World Cup being the most watched event in the world.... ironically the World Cup uses pools and a finals system similar to say the NFL. Even though soccer fans hate Yanks ey.

f**k the f**king Premier League. Waste competition. Might aswell be a 3 team comp.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
32,016
It's more like the marathon. After 42km, it's "Ok, blokes, that was good, but forget it happened. We're now going to have 100m dash to see who really won"


Considering the marathon is a single race event at the olympics, I'd say the 100m is much more apt.

It requires winning your nationals, qualifying for the team, passing the heats to qualify for the quarters, then getting into the semis, making the final, then FINALLY that last 100m dash to the gold.

Stumble at any point, false start once, miss the start by a fraction.... any little thing can bring it down.

If you would prefer to talk about the marathon though, its still in the end a foot race, and you only need to be in front for that last metre of the 42km. If someone is leading for the first 41km they don't get the gold just because they won most of the race.
 

dollyhands

Juniors
Messages
393
Considering the marathon is a single race event at the olympics, I'd say the 100m is much more apt.

It requires winning your nationals, qualifying for the team, passing the heats to qualify for the quarters, then getting into the semis, making the final, then FINALLY that last 100m dash to the gold.

Stumble at any point, false start once, miss the start by a fraction.... any little thing can bring it down.

If you would prefer to talk about the marathon though, its still in the end a foot race, and you only need to be in front for that last metre of the 42km. If someone is leading for the first 41km they don't get the gold just because they won most of the race.
Maybe like how the warriors got smashed in the first week of the semi's? Yep like the 100m any little hiccup means it's all over...... Oh wait, you can play rubbish for one week as long as you finish 6th and not 1st
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
32,016
Not sure about that. Worldwide the premier league has a much bigger deal (foreign tv rights are over £1bn alone) - but i don't know what the per person viewing figures are. Regardless, I don't think you can say the audience finds it boring when it is as watched as that.

The superbowl is a tv phenomenon - but their playoffs have the same issues we have ie poor viewing figures for some of the first round matchups.


The NFL's domestic tv rights this year are around US$3 billion.... I think they have the EPL covered, especially when you consider their international rights would be worth a fair whack as well.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
32,016
Maybe like how the warriors got smashed in the first week of the semi's? Yep like the 100m any little hiccup means it's all over...... Oh wait, you can play rubbish for one week as long as you finish 6th and not 1st


Are 1st not allowed to lose in week 1?
 

*Paul*

Juniors
Messages
2,151
Considering the marathon is a single race event at the olympics, I'd say the 100m is much more apt.

The 100m heats, semis etc system is indeed a good analogy for the semis - problem is, it misses the issue at hand. Melbourne won the marathon, but in order to collect its medal, it was forced to run a few more laps - but also having to wait until the place getters, some of them distant, were allowed to catch up.
 
Messages
4,801
Who cares who watches it? Britney Spears is popular, I don't give a shit.

The English Premier League is boring as f**k. Only 2 teams have won it in the last what, 7 years? I think that number extends to about 4 over 15 years

It's a shit competition and 95% of games are between no-hopers who don't even deserve to be in the comp because they're shit

People who watch it obviously like soccer, which is a boring sport with a boring set up on the whole.

2000-01 end table
Manchester
Arsenal
Liverpool
Leeds
Ipswich
Chelsea

2001-02 end table
Arsenal
Liverpool
Manchester
Newcastle
Leeds
Chelsea

2002-03 end table
Manchester
Arsenal
Newcastle
Chelsea
Liverpool
Blackburn

2003-04 end table
Arsenal
Chelsea
MAnchester
Liverpool
Newcastle
Villa

2004-05 end table
Chelsea
Arsenal
Manchester
Everton
Liverpool
Bolton

2005-06 end table
Chelsea
Manchester
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham
Blackburn

2006-07 end table
Manchester
Chelsea
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham
Everton

2007-08 end table
Manchester
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Everton
Villa

2008-09 end table
Manchester
Liverpool
Chelsea
Arsenal
Everton
Villa

2009-10 end table
Chelsea
Manchester
Arsenal
Tottenham
Man City
Villa

2010-11 end table
Manchester
Chelsea
Man City
Arsenal
Spurs
Liverpool

Are you f**king serious? :lol: Soccer fans are just brainwashed into thinking their sport is the be and end all of their life and that that's nothing wrong with their set up. But it's a f**king joke.

Drying paint has more variation and excitement than the EPL.

Finals systems and salary caps are head and shoulders superior to the backwards EPL. The Premier League and soccer is a sport that never evolved because it's never needed to. Why make something better when its the worlds most popular sport even though it's shit and boring?

The irony being that most soccer neanderthals bag other sports and countries that don't play soccer for using a finals system. Saying it's not fair and is shit..... then turn around and boast about Fifa World Cup being the most watched event in the world.... ironically the World Cup uses pools and a finals system similar to say the NFL. Even though soccer fans hate Yanks ey.

f**k the f**king Premier League. Waste competition. Might aswell be a 3 team comp.

While I'll say I'm a fan of the EPL and disagree with most of your points, the La Liga has basically been a 2 team playoff for the last few years. Barcelona and Real Madrid are miles ahead of the next best team.
 

Noa

First Grade
Messages
9,029
I think its clear now the Mactintyre system has to go. Yoo cant finish outside the top 4 and still make the GF.

How stupid. We all know that a top 8 system is crucial for 2 reasons:

1) Financial - More games = more money
2) Interest - The more teams that are in with a chance of making the finals towards the end of the regular season, the more interest that stays with the game throughout the season.

By having a top 8 system, it doesn't matter how it is structured, any team from 1-8 can potentially win it.

Sorry Merkin I worded that wrong, I meant you shouldnt be able to lose the first week and still make the GF. I support an 8 team finals
 

big_matt

Juniors
Messages
392
Who cares who watches it? Britney Spears is popular, I don't give a shit.

The English Premier League is boring as f**k. Only 2 teams have won it in the last what, 7 years? I think that number extends to about 4 over 15 years

It's a shit competition and 95% of games are between no-hopers who don't even deserve to be in the comp because they're shit

People who watch it obviously like soccer, which is a boring sport with a boring set up on the whole.

2000-01 end table
Manchester
Arsenal
Liverpool
Leeds
Ipswich
Chelsea

2001-02 end table
Arsenal
Liverpool
Manchester
Newcastle
Leeds
Chelsea

2002-03 end table
Manchester
Arsenal
Newcastle
Chelsea
Liverpool
Blackburn

2003-04 end table
Arsenal
Chelsea
MAnchester
Liverpool
Newcastle
Villa

2004-05 end table
Chelsea
Arsenal
Manchester
Everton
Liverpool
Bolton

2005-06 end table
Chelsea
Manchester
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham
Blackburn

2006-07 end table
Manchester
Chelsea
Liverpool
Arsenal
Tottenham
Everton

2007-08 end table
Manchester
Chelsea
Arsenal
Liverpool
Everton
Villa

2008-09 end table
Manchester
Liverpool
Chelsea
Arsenal
Everton
Villa

2009-10 end table
Chelsea
Manchester
Arsenal
Tottenham
Man City
Villa

2010-11 end table
Manchester
Chelsea
Man City
Arsenal
Spurs
Liverpool

Are you f**king serious? :lol: Soccer fans are just brainwashed into thinking their sport is the be and end all of their life and that that's nothing wrong with their set up. But it's a f**king joke.

Drying paint has more variation and excitement than the EPL.

Finals systems and salary caps are head and shoulders superior to the backwards EPL. The Premier League and soccer is a sport that never evolved because it's never needed to. Why make something better when its the worlds most popular sport even though it's shit and boring?

The irony being that most soccer neanderthals bag other sports and countries that don't play soccer for using a finals system. Saying it's not fair and is shit..... then turn around and boast about Fifa World Cup being the most watched event in the world.... ironically the World Cup uses pools and a finals system similar to say the NFL. Even though soccer fans hate Yanks ey.

f**k the f**king Premier League. Waste competition. Might aswell be a 3 team comp.

Why is it so massively popular in almost every country around the world if it's "a backwards f*cking joke which is boring and sh1t"?

I've never said the english system is 'better' (although I personally prefer it), but you just fly off the handle sending abusive posts to anyone you think is disagreeing with you.

"All soccer fans hate yanks". "Most soccer neaderthals bag other sports". "Soccer has never evolved". Where do you get all this stereotyped nonsense from?

And if the playoff system is so amazing why did no-one turn up for the manly and melb first round games, whilst first past the post sports can pack their stadiums every week?
 

big_matt

Juniors
Messages
392
The NFL's domestic tv rights this year are around US$3 billion.... I think they have the EPL covered, especially when you consider their international rights would be worth a fair whack as well.

It's gonna be close then if thats the US domestic figure. And given they have 5 times the population of England then the domestic contract in England may be more impressive. I'm also not convinced that their big tv contract is because they have playoffs - some of the regular season games (especially thanksgiving and monday night football) rate way higher than some of the playoff games.

Anyway, I think its a cultural thing. People in Australia or America wouldn't accept first past the post and the EPL fans wouldn't accept playoffs to decide the champions. Both systems have their merits.

What I would say is that the NFL playoff system is admired worldwide for being a good balance of not having too few teams in it (like baseball) and not having too many (like the NBA). The NRL allows the same % of teams into the playoffs as the NBA (which is becoming a laughing stock) and I think thats what we need to look at. No way the 7th and 8th place teams should be taking part.

Currently in a 24 game season you only need to win 12 games to get into the playoffs. That encourages mediocrity.
 
Last edited:
Messages
4,980
It's gonna be close then if thats the US domestic figure. And given they have 5 times the population of England then the domestic contract in England may be more impressive. I'm also not convinced that their big tv contract is because they have playoffs - some of the regular season games (especially thanksgiving and monday night football) rate way higher than some of the playoff games.

Anyway, I think its a cultural thing. People in Australia or America wouldn't accept first past the post and the EPL fans wouldn't accept playoffs to decide the champions. Both systems have their merits.

What I would say is that the NFL playoff system is admired worldwide for being a good balance of not having too few teams in it (like baseball) and not having too many (like the NBA). The NRL allows the same % of teams into the playoffs as the NBA (which is becoming a laughing stock) and I think thats what we need to look at. No way the 7th and 8th place teams should be taking part.

Currently in a 24 game season you only need to win 12 games to get into the playoffs. That encourages mediocrity.

I doubt they would either, but they also have the FA cup to get their "elimination" excitement.

Whilst ever we have origin mid-season, and causing disruption to the natural win/loss records of teams, I have no issues with an 8 team final system.
 

ozjet1

Guest
Messages
841
Finals systems and salary caps are head and shoulders superior to the backwards EPL. The Premier League and soccer is a sport that never evolved because it's never needed to. Why make something better when its the worlds most popular sport even though it's shit and boring?

The irony being that most soccer neanderthals bag other sports and countries that don't play soccer for using a finals system. Saying it's not fair and is shit..... then turn around and boast about Fifa World Cup being the most watched event in the world.... ironically the World Cup uses pools and a finals system similar to say the NFL. Even though soccer fans hate Yanks ey.

f**k the f**king Premier League. Waste competition. Might aswell be a 3 team comp.

i dont watch much soccer unless it's an international competition, but i need to correct you on a couple of things.

the one stage double round-robin system is not just an EPL system. It is the league system in most of the major soccer leagues in europe. it's not backwards. it's just one type of model and how the system operates. for it to work, every team needs to play each other the same number of times with an equal home & away advantage. it rewards consistency right through the season and as such, every game is important.

they have other tournaments that utilise the playoff system right through the competition - such as Cup comps - which enables the best team on the day to win and advance.

the reasoning that the NRL or AFL system is unfair is because theyve essentially just poorly evolved from the european league system. in the case of the NRL, the regular season is run on virtually the same premise. It has a 6 month-long 24 games per club round robin tournament which abruptly ends 6 games per club short of a full double round robin, essentially meaning a team will play 9 teams twice and 6 only once. yet, all teams are compared to each other in a single table for qualification to finals purposes. now apart from the financial benefits of more finals, this perception of inequity in the schedule is another reason for promoting half the comp into the finals. but whats the freakin point of scheduling 6 months of qualifying football to determine the deserving finals teams that essentially means squat when half the comp qualifies and a stellar 4 week run ultimately decides the premiership? yes, obviously its all financial, but competition-wise, it's a bit of a joke and the argument is average teams are still qualifying for finals after a long qualifying period and season-long inconsistent teams are having the chance to usurp the consistently good ones on one day. this is bullshit.

if the NRL are going to persist with a finals system to determine the premiers - which it obvioulsy will, it needs to devise and implement a regular season system which determines the good teams more effectively and fairly and so promotes less of them into the finals. instead, everything is catered for financial incentive & product for News Ltd.

the NFL have it right with a short qualifying season to determine post season participants as well as promoting less than half of teams to their finals - 12 of 32. in the case of the MLB (baseball), they have a much longer qualifying season but only promote a quarter of teams - 8 of 30. this may seem few, but after clubs play 162 games to determine those that deserve it, it is right that a select few advance. if they promote more, then what's the point of the 162 games per team to determine how good they are?

and re salary caps in soccer, etc. that is extremely difficult to implement competition-wise because there are several other competitions that might not implement it. If the English FA or premier league do it, their top players will then go to Spain, or Italy and greatly devalue their own league. it also has repercussions on the promotion/relegation system as caps in different divisions will also be different. the whole premise of european league systems is that the local park team can one-day find their way into the major league. what about the financial incentives on offer for winning competitions, and the excess money some clubs will end up sitting on if they cant spend it on players. this is hardly the case in rugby league with only two major leagues in the world on different sides of the globe, and relatively, deals in peanuts.
 

ellskimore

Juniors
Messages
1,924
Why is it so massively popular in almost every country around the world if it's "a backwards f*cking joke which is boring and sh1t"?

I've never said the english system is 'better' (although I personally prefer it), but you just fly off the handle sending abusive posts to anyone you think is disagreeing with you.

"All soccer fans hate yanks". "Most soccer neaderthals bag other sports". "Soccer has never evolved". Where do you get all this stereotyped nonsense from?

And if the playoff system is so amazing why did no-one turn up for the manly and melb first round games, whilst first past the post sports can pack their stadiums every week?

No. You are wrong to disagree with this guy. The English Premier League is a disgrace of a competition because it lacks the very thing that makes a competition a competition....and that is..........duh duh.......COMPETITION!
He very well made this point. No-one turned up to the first week of finals because our sport is not as popular. But if you use any logic you will realise that, as he pointed out, when the same teams win every year...where is the competition?
EPL sucks.
 

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