The annual finals system debate thread

[Eels Dude]

I see what you are saying but it doesn't necessarily work out like this. In the vast majority of seasons only the best clubs are left in the FA Cup near the end of the season, and therefore the people supporting the smaller teams only have avoiding relegation to look forward to (or nothing to look forward to if you are a comfortable mid table team).

Yeah I see what you're saying also but the difference with the EPL is that just the potential that every team has something to play for all year (FA cup, UEFA Cup spots, avoiding relegation) means at least going into every season there is a lot more to play for than just 'first past the post'. In the NRL if we had first past the past and that's it then at the halfway mark of the season, or even a third of the way for the season perhaps, fans would lose interest knowing their team has no chance of achieving anything that given season.

 

[adamkungl]

Nah. That was crap. It promotes mediocrity. What's the point of playing at your absolute best all season?

Newcastle were hardly mediocre.

In answer to your question, to give yourself the best shot in the finals.

 

[kay]

As a Warriors fan, I bagged the system last year when we were bundled out from 5th, I still prefer the AFL system. Yes the Warriors, are lucky to survive in that we were smashed in wk1, and anything could have gone, my argument last year, but I disagree that we would be undeserving if we win, we could have finished in the top4, for 50/50 decisions such as BeauRyan's put down in his matchwinning try (every club could say the same, thus the need for finals). As I found out from other's opinions last year, the idea of the NRL's firstweek is to 'qualify' the top 6 ranked teams, with the top 2 having the added advantage of not being knocked out before the gf qualifier.
Under the AFL system the Warriors would have faced the Cowboys who we beat the week prior. The thing about the regular season is that not everyone plays each other an equal amount of times and theres the farcical nature of teams and byes around rep time. So although Melbourne dominated the season, everyone went into the season knowing that theres a final series to crown the champions, as they showed in resting players against the Roosters.

 

[Noa]

I think its clear now the Mactintyre system has to go. Yoo cant finish outside the top 4 and still make the GF.

 

[Masoe_eats_babies]

McIntyre system is great. We don't want to end up like the English f**king premier league or any other boring soccer League.

Finals >>>>>>>>>

Makes me laugh how people say you can't finish outside the top 4 and still make the GF, why the f**k not?

That's how all the biggest sporting comptitions in the world happen. NFL, FIFA world cup, Rugby World Cup etc

What's the difference between a single group competition team coming from outside the top 4 to win. And a team coming in the top half of their group in a multi-pool competition to win?

No difference. Difference is League has too many sooks who cry when they're outed from the comp.

Go the Warriors. f**k the Storm

 

[Noa]

McIntyre system is great. We don't want to end up like the English f**king premier league or any other boring soccer League.

Finals >>>>>>>>>

Makes me laugh how people say you can't finish outside the top 4 and still make the GF, why the f**k not?

That's how all the biggest sporting comptitions in the world happen. NFL, FIFA world cup, Rugby World Cup etc

What's the difference between a single group competition team coming from outside the top 4 to win. And a team coming in the top half of their group in a multi-pool competition to win?

No difference. Difference is League has too many sooks who cry when they're outed from the comp.

Go the Warriors. f**k the Storm

Lucky for me I said the same thing a page ago on the 09.09. I like posters like Masoe that no matter how many times theyre wrong, they still post all guns blazing.

 

[simostorm]

I am now a supporter of the AFL system. Warriors would have been booted round 1 lol..

 

[meltiger]

No they wouldn't. They would have played the Cowboys in Auckland as opposed to Brisbane in Brisbane.

Should the Warriors get up, after being embarrassed week 1, they will have re grouped and beaten 4th, 1st, 2nd.... All away from home.

Any suggestions they would be unworthy premiers is wide of the mark.

 

[ozjet1]

McIntyre system is great. We don't want to end up like the English f**king premier league or any other boring soccer League.

Finals >>>>>>>>>

Makes me laugh how people say you can't finish outside the top 4 and still make the GF, why the f**k not?

That's how all the biggest sporting comptitions in the world happen. NFL, FIFA world cup, Rugby World Cup etc

What's the difference between a single group competition team coming from outside the top 4 to win. And a team coming in the top half of their group in a multi-pool competition to win?

No difference. Difference is League has too many sooks who cry when they're outed from the comp.

Go the Warriors. f**k the Storm

the examples you gave are different to the NRL situation. for a start, not every team plays each other in those comps.

what's the point of making fans sit through and having teams play 24 games in qualifying rounds if the then half the teams are promoted to finals and giving a lower-seed an opportunity to lose a game in the finals and still win the competition? oh yeah, Fox need the product. get the same result playing 15 qualifying rounds.

 

[Lego_Man]

The benchmark of a great team isnt whether they can flog Cronulla and Souffs by 50 during the regular season.

It's whether they can win the big games, against big opposition, with everything on the line.

And that's why i think a finals series is the best way of separating the wheat from the chaff.

 

[simostorm]

No they wouldn't. They would have played the Cowboys in Auckland as opposed to Brisbane in Brisbane.

Should the Warriors get up, after being embarrassed week 1, they will have re grouped and beaten 4th, 1st, 2nd.... All away from home.

Any suggestions they would be unworthy premiers is wide of the mark.

The way they played week 1.. they woulda got beat.

 

[Lego_Man]

So what is the difference between the Storm getting beaten by 30 points in Round 26 and still being crowned First Fast the Post Premiers, and the Warriors losing by 30, and then beating two excellent teams, and still have to face the (arguably best) team in a Sudden Death game to win the Premiership?

 

[firechild]

I think its clear now the Mactintyre system has to go. Yoo cant finish outside the top 4 and still make the GF.

How stupid. We all know that a top 8 system is crucial for 2 reasons:

1) Financial - More games = more money
2) Interest - The more teams that are in with a chance of making the finals towards the end of the regular season, the more interest that stays with the game throughout the season.

By having a top 8 system, it doesn't matter how it is structured, any team from 1-8 can potentially win it.

 

[ozjet1]

So what is the difference between the Storm getting beaten by 30 points in Round 26 and still being crowned First Fast the Post Premiers, and the Warriors losing by 30, and then beating two excellent teams, and still have to face the (arguably best) team in a Sudden Death game to win the Premiership?

did you think that up while forcing lego bricks up your arse? what are you on about?

 

[The Elephant In The room]

All systems have their failings. If the minor premiers can't make the finals by beating teams 8 & 6, then they simply aren't good enough. (Keep in mind that the AFL minor premiers had to beat teams 4 & 3 to make it to the big dance).

I think the biggest issue with the NRL finals isn't the McIntyre system, but the allocation of home finals in weeks 2, which I think should stay with the highest placed teams at the end of the regular season.

 

[Lego_Man]

There are plenty of complaints that people would make if we implemented the AFL system.

- Teams 1-4 are guaranteed a second life, however they pay the penalty by:

i) Teams 3 and 4 play away from home. OK in AFL where everyone is used to playing everything at the G, not so for the NRL.
ii) The physical nature of NRL - the Top 4 would "smash themselves up against each other", playing harder games from the start. This year i would much rather have finished 5th than 1st if we were playing under the AFL system. Again, not so much a problem for the AFL as it is a less physical game.
iii) Not enough "reward" for 1 and 2 finishing teams given the above.

The only thing the AFL system has going for it is that it COMPLETELY insulates the Top 4 from a Week One exit. But it disadvantages them in other ways. And how many times has 4th or 3rd been knocked out in Week 1 via the McIntyre?

Fact is any Finals System is going to throw up anomalies, and generate complaints from fans of teams who got knocked out by teams they perceive as worse than them. But such is life.

 

[Lego_Man]

did you think that up while forcing lego bricks up your arse? what are you on about?

Let me break it down for you:

- People are saying Warriors dont deserve to be in the Grand Final because they got beaten by 30 a couple of weeks ago.
- People would rather have the FPP because it gives the "Best Premier"
- Melbourne, who would have won under FPP, got flogged by 30 in Round 26.

Clear?

 

[The Elephant In The room]

There are plenty of complaints that people would make if we implemented the AFL system.

- Teams 1-4 are guaranteed a second life, however they pay the penalty by:

i) Teams 3 and 4 play away from home. OK in AFL where everyone is used to playing everything at the G, not so for the NRL.

Lego, I think your first comment hit the nail on the head, people will have a whinge about any system.

I think the sharing of grounds is one of the major reason why the McIntyre system isn't used in the AFL. If they did, this year 1st (Collingwood) would have played 8th (Essendon) in front of a 50/50 crowd because the MCG is the home ground for both. The NRL doesn't have that issue so much at present, although if they continue to insist where teams play finals, it may rear its ugly head at some point.

 

[ozjet1]

All systems have their failings. If the minor premiers can't make the finals by beating teams 8 & 6, then they simply aren't good enough. (Keep in mind that the AFL minor premiers had to beat teams 4 & 3 to make it to the big dance).

I think the biggest issue with the NRL finals isn't the McIntyre system, but the allocation of home finals in weeks 2, which I think should stay with the highest placed teams at the end of the regular season.

the mcintyre final 8 is a crock. the survival of losing teams in wk 1 depends on other results. what a joke. then, seedings earned after 24 qualfying games over 6 months of the year are also void after one week. pathetic.

all of ken mcintyre's systems are shit. they all utilise the double chance. his final 4 and 5 would regularly have teams play each other in a double chance game, then the same teams turn up later in the GF with a different (or a chance of a different) result. all well and good if the prelim & GF were double chance too, but they arent. they're playoffs.

what was needed way back when the finals systems were conceived were playoffs with the top seeds receiving wk 1 byes and all games having the same reward, and not some wannabe mathematician skewing competition with bullshit algorithims and possibilities and chances.

furthermore, the first stage (regular season/qualifying rounds) of the NRL comp needs a complete overhaul. teams play some teams once and others twice yet all are seeded together in a single ladder. the single table is only accurate if all teams play each other the same number of times.

incorporating groupings as they do in american sports is the way to go in scheduling the season and determining seeds for finals. all teams will be compared first and foremost against other teams who have a similar schedule. instead, what we have in OZ is a bastardised european league version. It is a poor way to structure such a season when all teams dont play each other the same number of times and when a 2nd stage finals phase is used to determine the champions.

 

[meltiger]

^ OzJ. Are you suggesting an NFL style playoff system? If so, I'd agree. It's a great middle ground between the two systems.

1/2 still get a reward by having week off + hone final in week 2 BUT the system still rewards winning cut throat finals and punishes those who don't.


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Simo, the Warriors may have been crap week 1 but did you watch the Cowboys 2nd half?