The Comic Book Film Thread *** SPOILERS ***

[shiznit]

Doesn't mean it's the most intricate and well-told story in the history of film, which it isn't.

They also don't tell one story. Most of the films have nothing to do with each other. It's like saying the entirety of Marvel Comics tell 'one story'.

I think the plan is that over time it will...

Obviously each film has its own narrative but it will all come under the infinity saga... so
It was mostly moving in that infinity stone direction...

But I do get where your coming from... I mean you look at it at face value... Civil War really had nothing to do with the overarching infinity saga... but when you step back and look at the way it was moving... the split between the Avengers caused by Civil War may have given Thanos the opportunity in IW as one could argue that Thanos may not have been able to beat the entire team if they were together in IW.

Looking forward... whatever the future saga is... if they can stitch it together like the Infinity saga it will be pretty spectacular IMO...

 

[shiznit]

Who said it murdered Spider-man? The point is if people want to (on the hyperbolic end) claim that the MCU wont survive without Spider-man then it's fair enough to point out that a recent MCU film, with a female character, which the man babies on the internet lost the plot about, still managed to make a wee bit more or roughly the same as the current premier Marvel hero they're trumpeting.

As to your comment, I think that Marvel have got enough runs on the board to suggest they can switch focus without Spider-man ... otherwise they would have accepted the shitty deal they have previously had with Sony.

I said it murdered Spider-Man...

And I stand by that... over $200M better for what was really the first film in an unknown property vs the sequel to one of the most popular and famous film properties of all time...

BP beat Homecoming by half a billion dollars...

I’m pretty confident that with BP’s big jump in profile the sequel will be even bigger...

 

[Matua]

I said it murdered Spider-Man...

And I stand by that... over $200M better for what was really the first film in an unknown property vs the sequel to one of the most popular and famous film properties of all time...

BP beat Homecoming by half a billion dollars...

I’m pretty confident that with BP’s big jump in profile the sequel will be even bigger...

Ah right, that was my misreading of the reply - I had only mentioned Captain Marvel so thought the poster was responding to Captain Marvel not BP. My bad.

While I don't think BP2 will do bigger business than BP as I think it was a lightning in a bottle moment I agree with your general thesis.

 

[Danish]

I’m not saying it’s Casablanca, but Marvel have managed to build a franchise that spans over 20 films from scratch, in a decade, many of which had little to no broad appeal and they tell one coherent, interesting, entertaining story from beginning to end.

The creation and success of the MCU is one of the greatest achievements in the history of film. You can’t deny that.

I wouldn’t say they tell one story. In fact I’d say a lot of the stories contradict each other, to the point that marvel has released random little snippets of info to explain away plot holes quite regularly.

You can skip like 14 of the 20 films and not be lost on the primary storyline (the 3 previous avengers movies plus Civil War and Ragnorak are the only things needed to understand what’s going on in End Game. Captain Marvel at a stretch). Actually my wife was able to more than keep up with infinity war and end game going in basically cold besides a quick 15 min review by me before we got to the theatre.

The run of MCU movies is the most successful movie franchise. That is certain. They came along at a perfect time in history where social media was able to hyper inflate their value, but are also genuinely entertaining popcorn flicks, even if lacking any weight or stakes.

No one could argue they are great examples of cinema though. They’d be more likely to be used as case studies in marketing and business than in film.

 

[shiznit]

I wouldn’t say they tell one story. In fact I’d say a lot of the stories contradict each other, to the point that marvel has released random little snippets of info to explain away plot holes quite regularly.

You can skip like 14 of the 20 films and not be lost on the primary storyline (the 3 previous avengers movies plus Civil War and Ragnorak are the only things needed to understand what’s going on in End Game. Captain Marvel at a stretch). Actually my wife was able to more than keep up with infinity war and end game going in basically cold besides a quick 15 min review by me before we got to the theatre.

The run of MCU movies is the most successful movie franchise. That is certain. They came along at a perfect time in history where social media was able to hyper inflate their value, but are also genuinely entertaining popcorn flicks, even if lacking any weight or stakes.

No one could argue they are great examples of cinema though. They’d be more likely to be used as case studies in marketing and business than in film.

Disagree...

I get that your trying to play the contrarian in this instance but to be honest you’re just coming off as pompous.

While I certainly agree that the stories certainly have their faults...

There are a number of areas the MCU have set a standard across all of film... and it’s not just marketing and hype as you’ve alluded...

The easiest example I can think of is tonally...

the MCU has set a new standard in the ability to seamlessly switch between tones across films.

They are going to be pushing it even further with it’s move into horror but no other franchise has been able to change tones like they have without it hurting the films or overall franchise.

I think Feige and the crews ability to choose good film makers and the way they allow them to express their individual tone and style across the film is extraordinary...

From Taika Waititi and James Gunn’s quirky comedic style to Ryan Coogler and the Russo’s more grounded and gritty style...

It certainly hasn’t been perfect... ie Edgar Wright and Patty Jenkins walking away from projects... but i don’t know if anyone who has been able to do it better....

 

[Danish]

I honestly don’t see any tonal difference to the movies at all.

All the non-avengers movies follow the same formulaic structure, with the same completely forgettable villains, and the same comedic pop culture references and quips scattered throughout.

Some of them are classics - iron man was f**king awesome (IM2 and 3 stank), Ant Man was loads of fun, and winter soldier is easily the best standalone action movie Marvel has produced - but by the time Age of Ultron rolled round every movie just felt like a 2 hour advertisement for the next 5 movies.

Infinity war and End Game are genuine achievements in managing to tie up what was an insane amount of storylines without taking the easy “and then they all died” way out. you could tell the story was getting crushed under its own weight at times (Black widow and hawk eye trying to fight for the right to sacrifice themselves was stupid as hell), but the fact it had a fitting conclusion was a bloody miracle.

But now, they all just feel very cynical. The MCU is basically now the The Eagles, Guns N Roses, or all those other bands whose essentially lost the original members but still just keep touring with new musicians. They play all the right notes and the replacements are undoubtedly talented, but the music just ain’t the same

 

[Matua]

Danish: You're doing great movie snob and music snob in one post!

No one could argue they are great examples of cinema though.

I'm interested into why you think they're not (I don't really get the marketing and business jibe) and what you consider great examples of cinema as a barometer?

 

[Springs09]

What other tones have they used? They used the same quippy action-comedy tone in every movie, that's one of the major criticisms people have with it.

 

[Springs09]

Danish: You're doing great movie snob and music snob in one post!


I'm interested into why you think they're not (I don't really get the marketing and business jibe) and what you consider great examples of cinema as a barometer?

Because they really aren't great movies. James Bond is probably the closest example - a great achievement in what it's done as a whole and the mark its left on pop culture, but individually the movies aren't all that good.

Winter Soldier is often held up as the best MCU movie and it's at most a solid 8/10 action movie. Compared to landmarks such as Star Wars and Lord of the Rings which were both amazing technical achievements for their time and were great on-screen movies, no MCU movie stands up. Most are generic fare and the Avengers movies were very fun crossovers but nothing more, the stories were mediocre.

 

[Timbo]

Because they really aren't great movies. James Bond is probably the closest example - a great achievement in what it's done as a whole and the mark its left on pop culture, but individually the movies aren't all that good.

Winter Soldier is often held up as the best MCU movie and it's at most a solid 8/10 action movie. Compared to landmarks such as Star Wars and Lord of the Rings which were both amazing technical achievements for their time and were great on-screen movies, no MCU movie stands up. Most are generic fare and the Avengers movies were very fun crossovers but nothing more, the stories were mediocre.

I was trying to think of a franchise that’s come close to the MCU, and Bond really is the only one. With two major differences:

1 - It’s taken fifty years for Bond to make as many films as Marvel has managed in a shade over a decade.

2 - Marvel’s had a couple of misses (IM3, Ed Norton’s Hulk) but they’re mostly successes, and even the bad ones are watchable. There are several straight up bad Bond films (Die Another Day, Spectre, A View to a Kill, Diamonds are Forever) and several other seriously mediocre ones. EoN has hit the bullseye far less frequently than Marvel.

 

[Walt Flanigan]

Who said it murdered Spider-man?

It was in the post that you quoted.

 

[Danish]

Danish: You're doing great movie snob and music snob in one post!


I'm interested into why you think they're not (I don't really get the marketing and business jibe) and what you consider great examples of cinema as a barometer?

Well if we are talking about comic book movies, I’d say Logan and Dark knight are infinitely better movies.

If we are talking big epic sagas, Lord of the Rings craps on it from a great height.

If we are talking kids movies, we’ll then Toy Story has far more cohesive and brilliant story telling that crosses generations.

I don’t know if you want to compare it to just flat out great movies. I couldn’t see any marvel movie in a top 50 of just all time movies if we actually tried to work one out

 

[Springs09]

I was trying to think of a franchise that’s come close to the MCU, and Bond really is the only one. With two major differences:

1 - It’s taken fifty years for Bond to make as many films as Marvel has managed in a shade over a decade.

2 - Marvel’s had a couple of misses (IM3, Ed Norton’s Hulk) but they’re mostly successes, and even the bad ones are watchable. There are several straight up bad Bond films (Die Another Day, Spectre, A View to a Kill, Diamonds are Forever) and several other seriously mediocre ones. EoN has hit the bullseye far less frequently than Marvel.

Japan’s Kaiju movies are the other one, notable in that it did what Marvel has done 50 years ago, take a bunch of individual character movies and cross them over. Of course the quality isn’t anywhere close to Marvel.

Well if we are talking about comic book movies, I’d say Logan and Dark knight are infinitely better movies.

If we are talking big epic sagas, Lord of the Rings craps on it from a great height.

If we are talking kids movies, we’ll then Toy Story has far more cohesive and brilliant story telling that crosses generations.

I don’t know if you want to compare it to just flat out great movies. I couldn’t see any marvel movie in a top 50 of just all time movies if we actually tried to work one out

No MCU movie would make the Top 300 movies of all time.

 

[shiznit]

Japan’s Kaiju movies are the other one, notable in that it did what Marvel has done 50 years ago, take a bunch of individual character movies and cross them over. Of course the quality isn’t anywhere close to Marvel.



No MCU movie would make the Top 300 movies of all time.

Correction... I think you mean in YOUR top 300 movies of all time...

As they say... opinions are like assholes... everyone’s got one... but occasionally it stinks.

 

[Springs09]

Correction... I think you mean in YOUR top 300 movies of all time...

As they say... opinions are like assholes... everyone’s got one... but occasionally it stinks.

No, I mean in the Top 300.

Winter Soldier and Civil War would make my top 300 favourite movies. I’m under no illusions that they’re anywhere near the quality of the best cinema of all time though.

 

[shiznit]

No, I mean in the Top 300.

Winter Soldier and Civil War would make my top 300 favourite movies. I’m under no illusions that they’re anywhere near the quality of the best cinema of all time though.

Your arrogant enough to think you know what the top 300 films of all time are??

Get over yourself...

It’s all based on opinion...

But sure... I’ll humour you and play your game...

I googled the top 300 films of all time and the most credible list I got was a IMDB list from 2011 which predates the majority of the MCU... but contain classics like Ice age... and ice age 2...

So I went and found a more recent list...

The Empire top 100 films of all time.. https://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/best-movies-2/

The MCU had 3 films In that list... Civil War, Avengers 1 & Guardians of the Galaxy 1.

*drops mic*

 

[Matua]

It was in the post that you quoted.

Yeah, I addressed that in post #4003.

 

[Matua]

Well if we are talking about comic book movies, I’d say Logan and Dark knight are infinitely better movies.

If we are talking big epic sagas, Lord of the Rings craps on it from a great height.

If we are talking kids movies, we’ll then Toy Story has far more cohesive and brilliant story telling that crosses generations.

I don’t know if you want to compare it to just flat out great movies. I couldn’t see any marvel movie in a top 50 of just all time movies if we actually tried to work one out

I'm a Kiwi who doesn't like Lord of the Rings and would rather watch any Marvel movies outside of Thor 1&2, The Hulk, Iron Man 2 than those movies.

I think the Dark Knight is overrated but still a fine movie largely due to Ledger's performance (I'm a big Nolan fan but actually prefer Batman Begins to TDK and think the TDK2 is utter bollocks). Logan is good as a noir style film in the same way as The Winter Soldier is good as a 70s thriller. Thor 3 is good in a Taika Waititi style film.

I'm not sure I'd consider any of them in my greatest movies of all time - but even you in an earlier post stated you thought some of them were classics.

It seems like you just don't like their style and that's fair enough. I've never done a top 50 to see whether any of them would make it - but I'm sure that there are people out there who feel about the odd Marvel movie the way I feel about A New Hope and Empire.

 

[Danish]

I'm a Kiwi who doesn't like Lord of the Rings and would rather watch any Marvel movies outside of Thor 1&2, The Hulk, Iron Man 2 than those movies.

I think the Dark Knight is overrated but still a fine movie largely due to Ledger's performance (I'm a big Nolan fan but actually prefer Batman Begins to TDK and think the TDK2 is utter bollocks). Logan is good as a noir style film in the same way as The Winter Soldier is good as a 70s thriller. Thor 3 is good in a Taika Waititi style film.

I'm not sure I'd consider any of them in my greatest movies of all time - but even you in an earlier post stated you thought some of them were classics.

It seems like you just don't like their style and that's fair enough. I've never done a top 50 to see whether any of them would make it - but I'm sure that there are people out there who feel about the odd Marvel movie the way I feel about A New Hope and Empire.

I consider them classics the same way I consider the Goonies or Caddy shack classics. Great examples of what they are, but more an indulgence.

The fanboy obsession over Marvel online though probably slights me against them somewhat. To see all the marvel bros attacking Sony over the Spider-Man thing - despite it very clearly being Disney’s fault - is crap. Especially when all of them were fawning over them only a week ago when Far From Home announced the re-release with a couple mins of extra footage.

Actually, that extra footage tactic is what’s really turned me against marvel. If the lemmings allow that to become a viable tactic (and it looks like they are) then it will effectively ruin going to the movies

 

[Matua]

I consider them classics the same way I consider the Goonies or Caddy shack classics. Great examples of what they are, but more an indulgence.

The fanboy obsession over Marvel online though probably slights me against them somewhat. To see all the marvel bros attacking Sony over the Spider-Man thing - despite it very clearly being Disney’s fault - is crap. Especially when all of them were fawning over them only a week ago when Far From Home announced the re-release with a couple mins of extra footage.

Actually, that extra footage tactic is what’s really turned me against marvel. If the lemmings allow that to become a viable tactic (and it looks like they are) then it will effectively ruin going to the movies

Why care what fanboys think? The anti Captain Marvel stuff online is probably worse than any pro Marvel stuff so who cares what fanboys spout online when judging whether we like a film or not?

I don't think it's Disney's fault, if true I heard they were making 5% on those movies - as much as people rave about Spider-man the franchise was nearly dead after those two with that other English bloke before restarting in the MCU. I think it's benefited Spider-man being in MCU more than the other way round.