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The defence issue

Messages
3,988
Where to begin?? Worst defence of all Top Eight teams. Worst initial contact of any finals contender.

The old coaching adage is that defence is an attitude thing. We are missing leadership. Would Gal have allowed this? Lewis? Ennis?

Is our ‘leadership group’ (incl. Bomber) too soft? Where’s that BW&B steel?
 
Messages
4,213
Attitude ? . Ok But breaking it down more How much is hit and stick? How much is structure ,? dependant on stable team selection ? how much is trust in your teammate ? how much is individual positioning ? How much is having specialist coaches for all that ? I'm all for striving to win every game , every competition you are in ...Thats the right attitude . But with our young side ,reality I think is, it wont happen immediately, and we probably do need a good signing or two ,and some time for continuity. Dont really think a new head coach kicking arse is the answer .
 
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snout

First Grade
Messages
5,517
Yep. Defence is attitude. Going out determined to keep the line. Communicate with your mate. Count numbers. Slide. Up and in. Go for 80 - blah blah.

But just the art of tackling.
FMD.
Get off the line. Meet them before the advantage line and hurt the ferkers. Head in a safe position and shoulder and muscle - smash them while your mate wraps up the ball.

But our blokes know this stuff.
These are professional fotballers.
Theyve been coached at junior level. Rep. Coming through the grades .
NRL.

So wheres it gone??
And why wont bomber address it??

We do everything wrong.
We dont hit. We have all developed this wait, grab and roll style.
Its the sharon woods technique.
You dont move up. You wait for them to come to you and you hug them and wrestle.
Try and massage them to the ground.
But nobodies put on the ground.
After 5 seconds of this pathetic dance with the ball runner they get an arm free and pop the ball out the back.

I am gobsmacked.
We stood on our line the other nite and let cleary, Loui, Api and edwards play whatever football they wanted to before the line.
We made them look like johns and buderus.

In 2016 our pack wouldve been in their faces letting them know they're 22 year old kids.
Cleary wouldve been crippled like cronk was.
What a friggin joke we are.

And morris.
Ha!
This shows what a coach is made of.
Because THIS is coaching.
My man the Wok - f**k me, what he would make of this. He would rip heads off. "Defence wins rugby league."
God love him.

Raiders went from also rans to practically GF winners last season - bar 2 refereeing howlers- because they got their defensive game right.
They remarked every players game went to another level on the back of it.
Joey johns always tells anyone when youre games off - fix your defence.
Number 1.
Evetything else comes off the back of that.
 
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Ads

First Grade
Messages
5,169
It’s either fix the defence or see you later for me. No way would I re-sign morris if nothing changes.
 

Frenzy.

Post Whore
Messages
51,349
Can't fix age and can't fix lack of experience overnight.

I think defence is attitude is just another commentator cliche that has found it's way into the vernacular to be honest

NO ONE in here knows the attitude of the players until they are in the bubble talking to them. You CAN NOT judge attitude from the beanbag you watch the box on or even being in the crowd. Their attitude is probably fine but their knowledge of defence, techniques in tackling, abilities to count numbers and read plays, their anticipation based on the former, lack of onfield leadership because Graham is almost last man standing after massive losses over 3 years with Prior, Ennis, Lewis, Gallen all falling off the perch. Josh Morris leaving us in the lurch as far as backs leaders. Leutele becoming a Canook. Maloney continuing his trajectory as a mercenary. Probably others. Townsend being out injured for the last month. Moylan chronically injured. Dugan, also left in the lurch in the backs and can only cover one side. Offset that with having blooded 14 rookies in '18, '19 and '20 source http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/seasons/nrl-2018/transfers.html and it's much easier to understand why the defence is remedial at the moment. No point running out cliches, no point demanding instant change. This is a long haul. Eventually they get to where they have to be. It's not this year though so get the fekk over it.

By comparison, look at the table toppers. The Panthers have blooded 17 players in the same period. SEVENTEEN. They have also been fortunate enough to loan a bloke like Hetherington to a club to ensure he gets footy and continues developing. He also has become a leader in the Warriors pack.

I'd also point out that with first contact problems, the team is full of barely NRL hardened rookies and second stringers. Hunt has been the least criticised. Toby has copped it. Talakai has copped it. Wiiliams. Nikora. Big Sexy and Ronnie. Bubba. Even the bloody coach is a rookie. A huge proportion of what we criticise is because players have made fatigue errors on top of being inexperienced. That's a double edged sword. You need to be as fresh as possible for as long as possible to be able to concentrate and be able to learn. You don't learn under fatigue. You survive, best you can. First contact in defence is naturally the opposite of winning the ruck in offence by getting PCMs which are also down. The Sharks ALWAYS used to attack with their defence and defend with their attack. That's where the gritty reputation came from. That's not there this year and probably won't be for another few years

Oh, while I think of it, it's not the refs either. You play to the refs not get the shytes if they are perceived to be against you. That's another experience thing. Blokes in this team don't know the nuances of the refs yet. For all the whinging in here about set restarts and penalties and being looked at the wrong way there is nothing to be gained from the crying because most times, leave out howlers, the refs have been correct. Why, because the players don't know how to avoid those calls.

With fines still hanging over the team, $240,000 wasted on Xerri because he has to paid, a team full of kids, smallish sponsors, COVID bubbles, no home ground, seemingly delay problems in the building of Mecca it's a miracle and a great job that this team is, at the moment, looking at being semi bound.

I for one though won't be one bit surprised or upset if that arse drilling from Friday has done some head damage and we crash out of the 8 in double time. If that doesn't happen we all then know that the inner grit is still in there bubbling away just waiting for the time a million pennies drop and they figure it all out.

3-7 rebuild I'm calling.

Education over.
 
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myrrh ken

First Grade
Messages
9,817
Graham was giving away cheap 6 agains. Needs to lead in defence. We need some enforcers. Talakai is sort of one.
 

snout

First Grade
Messages
5,517
Can't fix age and can't fix lack of experience overnight.

I think defence is attitude is just another commentator cliche that has found it's way into the vernacular to be honest

NO ONE in here knows the attitude of the players until they are in the bubble talking to them. You CAN NOT judge attitude from the beanbag you watch the box on or even being in the crowd. Their attitude is probably fine but their knowledge of defence, techniques in tackling, abilities to count numbers and read plays, their anticipation based on the former, lack of onfield leadership because Graham is almost last man standing after massive losses over 3 years with Prior, Ennis, Lewis, Gallen all falling off the perch. Josh Morris leaving us in the lurch as far as backs leaders. Leutele becoming a Canook. Maloney continuing his trajectory as a mercenary. Probably others. Townsend being out injured for the last month. Moylan chronically injured. Dugan, also left in the lurch in the backs and can only cover one side. Offset that with having blooded 14 rookies in '18, '19 and '20 source http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/seasons/nrl-2018/transfers.html and it's much easier to understand why the defence is remedial at the moment. No point running out cliches, no point demanding instant change. This is a long haul. Eventually they get to where they have to be. It's not this year though so get the fekk over it.

By comparison, look at the table toppers. The Panthers have blooded 17 players in the same period. SEVENTEEN. They have also been fortunate enough to loan a bloke like Hetherington to a club to ensure he gets footy and continues developing. He also has become a leader in the Warriors pack.

I'd also point out that with first contact problems, the team is full of barely NRL hardened rookies and second stringers. Hunt has been the least criticised. Toby has copped it. Talakai has copped it. Wiiliams. Nikora. Big Sexy and Ronnie. Bubba. Even the bloody coach is a rookie. A huge proportion of what we criticise is because players have made fatigue errors on top of being inexperienced. That's a double edged sword. You need to be as fresh as possible for as long as possible to be able to concentrate and be able to learn. You don't learn under fatigue. You survive, best you can. First contact in defence is naturally the opposite of winning the ruck in offence by getting PCMs which are also down. The Sharks ALWAYS used to attack with their defence and defend with their attack. That's where the gritty reputation came from. That's not there this year and probably won't be for another few years

Oh, while I think of it, it's not the refs either. You play to the refs not get the shytes if they are perceived to be against you. That's another experience thing. Blokes in this team don't know the nuances of the refs yet. For all the whinging in here about set restarts and penalties and being looked at the wrong way there is nothing to be gained from the crying because most times, leave out howlers, the refs have been correct. Why, because the players don't know how to avoid those calls.

With fines still hanging over the team, $240,000 wasted on Xerri because he has to paid, a team full of kids, smallish sponsors, COVID bubbles, no home ground, seemingly delay problems in the building of Mecca it's a miracle and a great job that this team is, at the moment, looking at being semi bound.

I for one though won't be one bit surprised or upset if that arse drilling from Friday has done some head damage and we crash out of the 8 in double time. If that doesn't happen we all then know that the inner grit is still in there bubbling away just waiting for the time a million pennies drop and they figure it all out.

3-7 rebuild I'm calling.

Education over.
Step 1. Get off your line. Win the advantage line.
Step 2. Get out of marker and pressure first reciever and cover the dummy half.
Step 3. Wrap up the ball.
Step 4. Hit harder than them.
Step 5. Put ball runner on the ground.

Everything else is the finer technicalities and takes a whole preseason / season to perfect and fine tune.

But the first 5 steps....these bludgers would have..should have..had this drilled into them for the past 15 years.
It aint new to them and it needs to be trained trained and trained every week til the soft lazy farkers get it.

Yep it's attitude and the attitude to get off the line, hit, hurt, get up, get back and go again til the game is won is not there.
Youre paid 6 figures - not too much to expect from a professional athlete.
 
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Frenzy.

Post Whore
Messages
51,349
Graham was giving away cheap 6 agains. Needs to lead in defence. We need some enforcers. Talakai is sort of one.

How do you know he doesn't but they don't know how to follow?

It's like every other learning process. No leader can put silicone chips in people heads and make them do it all right until they have experienced things. Not parent with their kids, not teachers with their students, not professors with their undergrads. NO ONE.

It's not Wade's fault. It is just how it is

People, me included, have to move on from the pathetic blame culture in here. Get over your disappointments in other ways. Kick the cat if you have to. Frustration and disappointment is natural to people who buy into sports teams. In the case of the sharks it is becoming a massive regression back into that stinking losing culture fans perpetrated for decades.

Here's another interesting fact. In 2016, where most want to dwell, the Sharks broke a record in that GF.
Source - https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nr...m/news-story/bea7a3ccc7477ffe898ea4cc8b8cbc5f

Most experienced team EVER to play in a GF. That record won't be broken for another 100 years probably. Chris Heighington (294), Luke Lewis (283), Paul Gallen (278) and Michael Ennis (272) were all 250 game player. Prior over 200. Maloney over 200. Nearly everyone else bar Holmes and Bird were over 100 or 150

In contrast, the forward pack and bench against Penrith on Friday night had only 640 games experience spread over 10 men with Woods having 202 and Wade having 243 of those total games experience. Leave 185 games experience only in the remaining 8 bench players and forwards. Average of a mere 23 games per player.

Comparing what the current team should be doing as per the fans desires to what that team did is nonsense. Unproductive. Illogical. Probably stupid. Time to move on from 2016, get over it, let it go. It's ancient history now and nothing more than a good memory.
 

Frenzy.

Post Whore
Messages
51,349
Step 1. Get off your line. Win the advantage line.
Step 2. Get out of marker and pressure first reciever and cover the dummy half.
Step 3. Wrap up the ball.
Step 4. Hit harder than them.
Step 5. Put ball runner on the ground.

Everything else is the finer technicalities and takes a whole preseason / season to perfect and fine tune.

But the first 5 steps....these bludgers would have..should have..had this drilled into them for the past 15 years.
It aint new to them and it needs to be trained trained and trained every week til the soft lazy farkers get it.

Yep it's attitude and the attitude ti gey off the line, hit, hurt, get up, get back and go again til the game is won is not there.
Youre paid 6 figures - not too much to expect from a professional athlete.

Very simplistic and task orientated POV snout.

It IS new to them. Very new to most of them. Considering I didn't even look at the backs and their level of kindergarten standard experiences. NRL kindergarten that is

You're very disappointed, aren't you? :)
 

txta2

First Grade
Messages
5,178
No communication out wide,players like Moylan and Williams grabbing, the fullback is to small for last line of defense.
 

snout

First Grade
Messages
5,517
Very simplistic and task orientated POV snout.

It IS new to them. Very new to most of them. Considering I didn't even look at the backs and their level of kindergarten standard experiences. NRL kindergarten that is

You're very disappointed, aren't you? :)
More frustrated mate.
I watched the donks v queens game after ours and saw a bum side like saints ripping in defensively with a lot more gusto than our mob did. Even the broncs - they will switch off and leak easy tries - but then switch back to Dr Jeckyl and they look better than us in D.

It was embarrassing how good we made Pennies lokk the other night. There shouldve beeen a collective effort in smashing them khharnts for putting 50 on us. We must owe a few of them money. Embarrassing.

I fear this has come from woods. The way he plays to never get hurt compared to how Gal played with no self preservation. Is he a leader in this way of defending because l dont see any other leaders. Not even wade. I agree with the previous caller.

I fear it also comes from some big headed response to being the highest pointscorers in the comp. Is training all about throwing spirals and perfect swan dives for corner putdowns?
Does this mob think if they score 30 we'll score 31.

Bellamy would blow a gasket after the defensive efforts from us.
Maguire would neck himself.

Id ring gilmeister. Pay him for a weeks session in the sandpit.
We would have blokes crying
 

Frenzy.

Post Whore
Messages
51,349
More frustrated mate.
I watched the donks v queens game after ours and saw a bum side like saints ripping in defensively with a lot more gusto than our mob did. Even the broncs - they will switch off and leak easy tries - but then switch back to Dr Jeckyl and they look better than us in D.

It was embarrassing how good we made Pennies lokk the other night. There shouldve beeen a collective effort in smashing them khharnts for putting 50 on us. We must owe a few of them money. Embarrassing.

I fear this has come from woods. The way he plays to never get hurt compared to how Gal played with no self preservation. Is he a leader in this way of defending because l dont see any other leaders. Not even wade. I agree with the previous caller.

I fear it also comes from some big headed response to being the highest pointscorers in the comp. Is training all about throwing spirals and perfect swan dives for corner putdowns?
Does this mob think if they score 30 we'll score 31.

Bellamy would blow a gasket after the defensive efforts from us.
Maguire would neck himself.


Id ring gilmeister. Pay him for a weeks session in the sandpit.
We would have blokes crying

I dunno. If they had the Sharks side I don't think they would. I'll harp on about this too. It's team of kids. Green kids. Kids who still have soft underbellies. Kids who get tired easy and this leads to other getting fatigued through trying to do 50 1%ers instead of 20 to cover up.

Wasn't gonna look at the backs but there was only a total of 470 games experience in the backs the other night. Take out Dougall and Moyza it's left at 138 games or, an average of 27 per man.

No way Bellamy or Maguire would have conniptions over what's happening with the Sharks side if they were the coach.

The obvious missing link in leadership with the current side is Chad Townsend. People can choose to acknowledge that or not but it's a fact. Anybody, in any walk of life will say that you don't have to be the best worker (player) to be the best leader. It is often what keeps a person in a job.
 

myrrh ken

First Grade
Messages
9,817
How do you know he doesn't but they don't know how to follow?

It's like every other learning process. No leader can put silicone chips in people heads and make them do it all right until they have experienced things. Not parent with their kids, not teachers with their students, not professors with their undergrads. NO ONE.

It's not Wade's fault. It is just how it is

People, me included, have to move on from the pathetic blame culture in here. Get over your disappointments in other ways. Kick the cat if you have to. Frustration and disappointment is natural to people who buy into sports teams. In the case of the sharks it is becoming a massive regression back into that stinking losing culture fans perpetrated for decades.

Here's another interesting fact. In 2016, where most want to dwell, the Sharks broke a record in that GF.
Source - https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nr...m/news-story/bea7a3ccc7477ffe898ea4cc8b8cbc5f

Most experienced team EVER to play in a GF. That record won't be broken for another 100 years probably. Chris Heighington (294), Luke Lewis (283), Paul Gallen (278) and Michael Ennis (272) were all 250 game player. Prior over 200. Maloney over 200. Nearly everyone else bar Holmes and Bird were over 100 or 150

In contrast, the forward pack and bench against Penrith on Friday night had only 640 games experience spread over 10 men with Woods having 202 and Wade having 243 of those total games experience. Leave 185 games experience only in the remaining 8 bench players and forwards. Average of a mere 23 games per player.

Comparing what the current team should be doing as per the fans desires to what that team did is nonsense. Unproductive. Illogical. Probably stupid. Time to move on from 2016, get over it, let it go. It's ancient history now and nothing more than a good memory.

Cos as I said he was giving away cheap 6 agains.
 

Card Shark

Immortal
Messages
32,237
I don’t give a f**k about all the excuses being raised in here....fact is we are playing (defending) without aggression & determination (i.e attitude) & there’s no excuse for that, no matter how good / experienced your players are.
 

Frenzy.

Post Whore
Messages
51,349
I don’t give a f**k about all the excuses being raised in here....fact is we are playing (defending) without aggression & determination (i.e attitude) & there’s no excuse for that, no matter how good / experienced your players are.

Analysed reasons are not excuses. They are reasons. Like doing a root cause analysis. This is happening, or this happened because this happened first -> etc -> etc

Excuses are usually lies. I missed the tackle cause I had a sore hand. Oh how did you get that? I don't remember.
 

bluefox68

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,508
I dunno. If they had the Sharks side I don't think they would. I'll harp on about this too. It's team of kids. Green kids. Kids who still have soft underbellies. Kids who get tired easy and this leads to other getting fatigued through trying to do 50 1%ers instead of 20 to cover up.

Wasn't gonna look at the backs but there was only a total of 470 games experience in the backs the other night. Take out Dougall and Moyza it's left at 138 games or, an average of 27 per man.

No way Bellamy or Maguire would have conniptions over what's happening with the Sharks side if they were the coach.

The obvious missing link in leadership with the current side is Chad Townsend. People can choose to acknowledge that or not but it's a fact. Anybody, in any walk of life will say that you don't have to be the best worker (player) to be the best leader. It is often what keeps a person in a job.
Thanks for being the voice of reason...

I often wonder if we would be as hard on the Braileys, Williams’, etc... if they were our sons running out on the field in their first or second season of first grade!!!
 
Messages
3,988
I dunno. If they had the Sharks side I don't think they would. I'll harp on about this too. It's team of kids. Green kids. Kids who still have soft underbellies. Kids who get tired easy and this leads to other getting fatigued through trying to do 50 1%ers instead of 20 to cover up.

Wasn't gonna look at the backs but there was only a total of 470 games experience in the backs the other night. Take out Dougall and Moyza it's left at 138 games or, an average of 27 per man.

No way Bellamy or Maguire would have conniptions over what's happening with the Sharks side if they were the coach.

The obvious missing link in leadership with the current side is Chad Townsend. People can choose to acknowledge that or not but it's a fact. Anybody, in any walk of life will say that you don't have to be the best worker (player) to be the best leader. It is often what keeps a person in a job.
100%.

Sure, we 'could' be defending better, but it'll come. Give it another 2-3 years.
Development is a great thing, it's why the better, modern game is impossible for one team to dominate for too long a-la Dragqueens 11-year unlimited tackle yawnfest.

The difference between decent teams is fractional. Good teams leverage the smallest advantage, consistently. No way 'round it, experience takes time. #IBWT
 

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