The Pearce Problem

[SBD82]

Have you watched games this year, broncos and Dragons are 2 of the form teams of the comp, both games were tight. Both games needed a half to stand up and deliver and on both occasions pearce performed miserably. Same can be said for the close encounters between melbourne, Cronulla and souths this year, all close games were mitch has failed. But when roosters pumped cowboys and tigers he had good games, so maybe if nsw are ever pumping qld we might finally see the real mitchell pearce but considering most origins are tight and you need a half that can stay composed and control the game and make most of limited opportunities it's not very likely we will see the real pearce for the blues

I obviously don't watch Pearce as much as roosters supporters, so I have to submit to your expertise.

Can you point me to a big tight game where Pearce dominated the last ten minutes and controlled the win for his team?

 

[DiegoNT]

Brisbane and St George have both had good starts to the season but that doesn't make them big games. That right is earnt through AT LEAST dominating over a full season if not longer.

It's a perfect example of coming up with a conclusion and then finding reasons to suit your argument later.

You're the local at the pub who thinks he knows it all despite never actually watching that many game. You speak in generalisations and never provide any analysis, you refute stats beause they prove you wrong, you use quotes like 'Player A isn't a big game play', whenever you're proven wrong it's because there was some other extenuating circumstance that just happened to occur.

The perfect example is how you harp on about big games yet deny Pearce any credit for his awesome game against the Cowboys where he single handedly dominated the game. Honestly just think about that for a second and maybe you'll wake up to how much shit you talk.

any game against in form teams at any time of the year is a big game. Of all the close fought games his been in this year, he hasn't performed in any.
I gave credit to his performances against tigers and cowboys, in the right circumstances he is a great player, but those circumstances rarely happen in origin. Its like saying Queensland should pick Chris Sandow because of how he played against souths and manly this year, but in the last 10 minutes of Wednesdays game Sandow would be the last player Queensland would want in that situation.
I've pointed to many close games he has failed in, I'm yet to see anyone point to any big game were he took control. Roosters won a grandfinal of the back of sbw and maloney, in the grand final it was dce who got man of the match. In 13 origins he has failed to do anything, he has one average performance and it's hailed his best origin ever.

 

[DiegoNT]

A lot of people have given reasons on why he shouldn't be there, many examples of past failures

Pearce supporters have 2 lines
1. It wasn't Mitchell's fault we Lost
That is true, its a team game no 1 player can ever take the blame for a lose

2. He didn't play that bad
It's true that he has had a lot worse games for the blues but he was average at best, the fact that it's his best origin ever tells it's own story

So pearce supporters nows the time to say why he should be there
What are his strengths?
What is it that he brings to the team that others can't?
What are the examples of him performing in big games or tight games?

 

[RWB]

any game against in form teams at any time of the year is a big game. Of all the close fought games his been in this year, he hasn't performed in any.
I gave credit to his performances against tigers and cowboys, in the right circumstances he is a great player, but those circumstances rarely happen in origin. Its like saying Queensland should pick Chris Sandow because of how he played against souths and manly this year, but in the last 10 minutes of Wednesdays game Sandow would be the last player Queensland would want in that situation.
I've pointed to many close games he has failed in, I'm yet to see anyone point to any big game were he took control. Roosters won a grandfinal of the back of sbw and maloney, in the grand final it was dce who got man of the match. In 13 origins he has failed to do anything, he has one average performance and it's hailed his best origin ever.

Alright lets do this. I want to see all the excuses and amount of extenuating circumstance bullshit you can come up with. Cause god knows you wont admit your were wrong.

And I wont cherry pick the odd game here and there out of his career so you can argue the legitimacy of whether they were a "big game" or not I'll got to the business end of last year.

Round 25 Vs Melbourne Storm. (Top 4 spot for Melbourne on the line)
Down 12-8 in a grinding game, Pearce pounces on a dropped ball, runs 30m and scores under the posts to put the Roosters ahead. With 10 minutes to go and only 2 points to the good he sees Cronk rush out of the line, puts in a delicate kick behind the line for Guerra and seals a victory for the Roosters.
Both tries: https://youtu.be/eg9SEiQo7Qs?t=1m54s

Round 26 Vs South Sydney Rabbitohs (Winner takes the Minor Premiership)
The Roosters win 22-18.
Mitchell Pearce makes 2 linebreaks, comes up with 3 try assists and the play of the game when he chases down Greg Inglis 20m from the try line after he made a clean break 70m back down the field.
Game Highlights: https://youtu.be/Y5DYa6IjME0

Finals Week 1 Vs Penrith Panthers
The Roosters go down in a narrow one in a game that will be remember by most Roosters fans as one season too many for Mini who gifted the Panthers the win in the dying minutes. But what has been forgotten was that at 12-12 with 7 minutes left to play it was Mitchell Pearce who if not for a Minichiello brain fade sealed the game with a brilliant solo try.
Try: https://youtu.be/Jy0gkm1MxCw?t=3m15s

Finals Week 2 Vs Nth Qld Cowboys
Roosters win a tight one 31-30, Pearce has a solid game including a brilliant solo try. Ends up running over 150m for the game.

We end up getting knocked out by the better team in the Rabbitohs but not before Pearce sets up one more try for the season and scores a brilliant solo try. One of the few good performers for the Roosters.
Solo try: https://youtu.be/Nm7GpwRDk8c?t=27s

Not bad for a bloke who apparently offers us nothing in big games.

 

[DiegoNT]

Alright lets do this. I want to see all the excuses and amount of extenuating circumstance bullshit you can come up with. Cause god knows you wont admit your were wrong.

And I wont cherry pick the odd game here and there out of his career so you can argue the legitimacy of whether they were a "big game" or not I'll got to the business end of last year.

Round 25 Vs Melbourne Storm. (Top 4 spot for Melbourne on the line)
Down 12-8 in a grinding game, Pearce pounces on a dropped ball, runs 30m and scores under the posts to put the Roosters ahead. With 10 minutes to go and only 2 points to the good he sees Cronk rush out of the line, puts in a delicate kick behind the line for Guerra and seals a victory for the Roosters.
Both tries: https://youtu.be/eg9SEiQo7Qs?t=1m54s

Round 26 Vs South Sydney Rabbitohs (Winner takes the Minor Premiership)
The Roosters win 22-18.
Mitchell Pearce makes 2 linebreaks, comes up with 3 try assists and the play of the game when he chases down Greg Inglis 20m from the try line after he made a clean break 70m back down the field.
Game Highlights: https://youtu.be/Y5DYa6IjME0

Finals Week 1 Vs Penrith Panthers
The Roosters go down in a narrow one in a game that will be remember by most Roosters fans as one season too many for Mini who gifted the Panthers the win in the dying minutes. But what has been forgotten was that at 12-12 with 7 minutes left to play it was Mitchell Pearce who if not for a Minichiello brain fade sealed the game with a brilliant solo try.
Try: https://youtu.be/Jy0gkm1MxCw?t=3m15s

Finals Week 2 Vs Nth Qld Cowboys
Roosters win a tight one 31-30, Pearce has a solid game including a brilliant solo try. Ends up running over 150m for the game.

We end up getting knocked out by the better team in the Rabbitohs but not before Pearce sets up one more try for the season and scores a brilliant solo try. One of the few good performers for the Roosters.
Solo try: https://youtu.be/Nm7GpwRDk8c?t=27s

Not bad for a bloke who apparently offers us nothing in big games.

Thank you, in almost 200 nrl games and he 13 origins, that's his 4 biggest clutch game performances for 3 wins

Now what are his strengths and what can he bring to the blues that another player can't?

 

[RWB]

Thank you, in almost 200 nrl games and he 13 origins, that's his 4 biggest clutch game performances for 3 wins

I never said they were his 4 biggest I just gave you 4 consecutive games from the business end of his most recent season after you said he doesn't perform in big games and needs everything to go his way to play well. Trust you to try and worm out after being proven conclusively wrong :lol:

You're too predictable, there's no point rebutting anymore because like I thought there's no concessions with you. The ego is too big and you watch too little football.

And I'm not even arguing that there isn't a case to be made for Pearce not to be in Origin, there is and it's a clear one he's failed in Origin over a long period of time. Plenty of people make the argument well and it's a fair and rationalised one.

It's just that your case sucks and you don't make it well. It deserves to be heard no where else than inside of the 4 walls at your local pub to the drunks who are too inebriated to get up and leave the table you spit your ill-formed, generalised opinions at.

 

[DiegoNT]

I never said they were his 4 biggest I just gave you 4 consecutive games from the business end of his most recent season after you said he doesn't perform in big games and needs everything to go his way to play well. Trust you to try and worm out after being proven conclusively wrong :lol:

You're too predictable, there's no point rebutting anymore because like I thought there's no concessions with you. The ego is too big and you watch too little football.

And I'm not even arguing that there isn't a case to be made for Pearce not to be in Origin, there is and it's a clear one he's failed in Origin over a long period of time. Plenty of people make the argument well and it's a fair and rationalised one.

It's just that your case sucks and you don't make it well. It deserves to be heard no where else than inside of the 4 walls at your local pub to the drunks who are too inebriated to get up and leave the table you spit your ill-formed, generalised opinions at.

Well they are his 4 biggest clutch game performances are they not?
He hasn't played great in a grand final
he hasn't done it in a preliminary (though you are right, he did get off to a great start against the bunnies)
he doesn't have a test match to his name so that's not applicable
he has 13 origin matches with no good performances
I can't remember him playing a big role in a tight finals match outside of last year ( I'm sure some roosters fan will prove me wrong here)
So that run last year seems to be his 4 biggest clutch performances in big games.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, these things are just opinions and I get a huge amount wrong
I thought sbw would be a flop for roosters
I thought broncos would be bottom 4 this year
I thought slater was over the hill in 2012
I thought inglis would prove his a better fullback then slater this year
I'd be happy for pearce to make me look stupid ( well stupider) and have a huge performance for the blues to shut me and the other haters once and for all.

 

[SBD82]

I never said they were his 4 biggest I just gave you 4 consecutive games from the business end of his most recent season after you said he doesn't perform in big games and needs everything to go his way to play well. Trust you to try and worm out after being proven conclusively wrong :lol:

You're too predictable, there's no point rebutting anymore because like I thought there's no concessions with you. The ego is too big and you watch too little football.

And I'm not even arguing that there isn't a case to be made for Pearce not to be in Origin, there is and it's a clear one he's failed in Origin over a long period of time. Plenty of people make the argument well and it's a fair and rationalised one.

It's just that your case sucks and you don't make it well. It deserves to be heard no where else than inside of the 4 walls at your local pub to the drunks who are too inebriated to get up and leave the table you spit your ill-formed, generalised opinions at.

I thought your list was good and I was impressed. I wouldn't have expected his whole career reviewed.

I don't think it's unreasonable for NSW supporters to be hell bent against him though. So many years of crap selections and having to listen to QLDers gloating has been pretty tough to bear

For whatever reason, Pearce just doesn't seem capable of directing an origin side around the park. No matter who his 1, 6 and 9 combo is he just doesn't take control of a game.

 

[roostersrule2]

Well they are his 4 biggest clutch game performances are they not?
He hasn't played great in a grand final
he hasn't done it in a preliminary (though you are right, he did get off to a great start against the bunnies)
he doesn't have a test match to his name so that's not applicable
he has 13 origin matches with no good performances
I can't remember him playing a big role in a tight finals match outside of last year ( I'm sure some roosters fan will prove me wrong here)
So that run last year seems to be his 4 biggest clutch performances in big games.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, these things are just opinions and I get a huge amount wrong
I thought sbw would be a flop for roosters
I thought broncos would be bottom 4 this year
I thought slater was over the hill in 2012
I thought inglis would prove his a better fullback then slater this year
I'd be happy for pearce to make me look stupid ( well stupider) and have a huge performance for the blues to shut me and the other haters once and for all.

You certainly don't need Pearce's help to make you look stupid.

 

[Valheru]

I only watch roosters when it's a big game, finals, vs rabbitohs and this year only the broncos, dragons and sharks games. he has never stamped himself in any of these games. In all these close, vital games he has failed to deliver. And in 13 origins, Wednesdays was his best! Im sure he steers the team around when the stress is off but he has never delivered in a big game.

So you conveniently only watch roosters games when they lose?

You are a moron.

 

[big hit!]

i'd say the problems in Game 1 were:

Hodkinson not finding the sideline on a penalty;

Hodkinson not being in the position to take the FG attempt - this is one of the reasons he was picked was it not?;

those two incidents had a huge bearing on the outcome of the match.

in terms of patterns throughout the match the NSW problems were:

Two or three NSW forwards going missing or lacking any penetration as usual in an Origin match. Where were you Merrin, Cordner, Fifita & Jackson?;

Little penetration from NSW backs early in the tackle count in comparison to the impact of Hodges and Chambers in the role for QLD;

Lazy NSW forwards in the second half not even trying to get their hands on the ball until tackle 4 when they should be getting out from crowding around the ruck;

Daley selecting a kid who's barely played as a middle forward at club level to be the starting Origin middle forward. Had absolutely no impact in the role and won't ever unless he plays at it regularly and excels in the role for his club.

All that BS talk about how much bigger the NSW forwards were in this game but in actual fact, Daley started the game with Farah and Jackson in the middle - two blokes in the high 80s/low 90s for weight vs the QLD middle 4 with just Smith in the 90s. whenever they were on the field together, NSW were seriously undersized with all of the QLD middle & prop forwards over 100kegs. these maroon lard arses actually worked their butt off set after set to take hit ups, unlike those in Blue who jogged back and didn't get set until tackle 4 to take their hit ups. Nice of them to arrive.

 

[DiegoNT]

So you conveniently only watch roosters games when they lose?

You are a moron.

Yea because I look into my crystal ball and only watch the games I know they're going to lose.

I knew before watching the games live that they'd lose tight games to the broncos, rabbitohs, dragons, sharks and melbourne this year

I've also watched the games when roosters smash teams, like against the tigers for example, and there's no denying pearce is great in those kind of games, but they don't really showcase what is needed in origin ( where it's always close and tight in the final minutes)
Cronk and Thurston aren't judged on how they go in games were they smash the opposition, what makes those 2 great is how they can control a game and how they handle the tight moments

 

[Captain Apollo]

i'd say the problems in Game 1 were:

Hodkinson not finding the sideline on a penalty;

Hodkinson not being in the position to take the FG attempt - this is one of the reasons he was picked was it not?;

those two incidents had a huge bearing on the outcome of the match.

in terms of patterns throughout the match the NSW problems were:

Two or three NSW forwards going missing or lacking any penetration as usual in an Origin match. Where were you Merrin, Cordner, Fifita & Jackson?;

Little penetration from NSW backs early in the tackle count in comparison to the impact of Hodges and Chambers in the role for QLD;

Lazy NSW forwards in the second half not even trying to get their hands on the ball until tackle 4 when they should be getting out from crowding around the ruck;

Daley selecting a kid who's barely played as a middle forward at club level to be the starting Origin middle forward. Had absolutely no impact in the role and won't ever unless he plays at it regularly and excels in the role for his club.

All that BS talk about how much bigger the NSW forwards were in this game but in actual fact, Daley started the game with Farah and Jackson in the middle - two blokes in the high 80s/low 90s for weight vs the QLD middle 4 with just Smith in the 90s. whenever they were on the field together, NSW were seriously undersized with all of the QLD middle & prop forwards over 100kegs. these maroon lard arses actually worked their butt off set after set to take hit ups, unlike those in Blue who jogged back and didn't get set until tackle 4 to take their hit ups. Nice of them to arrive.

High 80s to low 90s in weight for Josh Jackson?! He weighs 98 kgs mate - http://www.bulldogs.com.au/team/profiles/josh-jackson.html

As such your weight argument is not really there.

As to the forwards not getting their hands on the ball, you seem to forget the dearth of possession NSW had early in the second half. At one stage NSW had made something like 100 more tackles by the mid-second half. By fulltime that differential was down to 59. Hence part of it was fatigue.

Daley's interchange strategy was poor though. He kept both starting props out there too long, and then brought them both off at virtually the same time. Merrin wasn't used until the second half. Cordner was used to replace Beau Scott and stationed on the right hand side, negating his club formation with Jennings and Tupou whom he usually lines up on the left with.

 

[DiegoNT]

i'd say the problems in Game 1 were:

Hodkinson not finding the sideline on a penalty;

Hodkinson not being in the position to take the FG attempt - this is one of the reasons he was picked was it not?;

those two incidents had a huge bearing on the outcome of the match.

in terms of patterns throughout the match the NSW problems were:

Two or three NSW forwards going missing or lacking any penetration as usual in an Origin match. Where were you Merrin, Cordner, Fifita & Jackson?;

Little penetration from NSW backs early in the tackle count in comparison to the impact of Hodges and Chambers in the role for QLD;

Lazy NSW forwards in the second half not even trying to get their hands on the ball until tackle 4 when they should be getting out from crowding around the ruck;

Daley selecting a kid who's barely played as a middle forward at club level to be the starting Origin middle forward. Had absolutely no impact in the role and won't ever unless he plays at it regularly and excels in the role for his club.

All that BS talk about how much bigger the NSW forwards were in this game but in actual fact, Daley started the game with Farah and Jackson in the middle - two blokes in the high 80s/low 90s for weight vs the QLD middle 4 with just Smith in the 90s. whenever they were on the field together, NSW were seriously undersized with all of the QLD middle & prop forwards over 100kegs. these maroon lard arses actually worked their butt off set after set to take hit ups, unlike those in Blue who jogged back and didn't get set until tackle 4 to take their hit ups. Nice of them to arrive.

Billy slater catches the ball on his 20 with no pressure
He runs over the 30m line and gets a quick play the ball.
Hodges or chambers makes a quick 10-15m from quick play the ball
Ball is back to where the forwards are they've barely had to move
Forwards get a roll on

Kick to dugan on the 20m line, put a lot of pressure on him, he gets tackles on the 20m with a slow play the ball
Tupou and Hopoate make 5m due to slow play the balls (and the fact they aren't the best at hit ups)
Forwards have to make their way back to the 30m line to have their hit ups, usually of slow play the balls.
Kick to slater on the 30m line.
Repeat until Queensland are in our 20
Queensland don't score, get a repeat set, and repeat and repeat until they've scored or at least tired nsw out

Minor variation if blues get some dominance and make their way to Queensland 20m zone.
If no try is scored pick a poor 5th tackle option and relieve Queensland of any pressure they were in

We've had to rely on individual brilliance to jag our wins.
Queensland completely control proceedings for their wins, mainly off a controlled game from cronk, smith and jt

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Just out of interest...if NSW kicks the extra conversion and wins 12-10, does anyone think Pearce's performance would've been picked over to any particular extent?

 

[Valheru]

Yea because I look into my crystal ball and only watch the games I know they're going to lose.

I knew before watching the games live that they'd lose tight games to the broncos, rabbitohs, dragons, sharks and melbourne this year

I've also watched the games when roosters smash teams, like against the tigers for example, and there's no denying pearce is great in those kind of games, but they don't really showcase what is needed in origin ( where it's always close and tight in the final minutes)
Cronk and Thurston aren't judged on how they go in games were they smash the opposition, what makes those 2 great is how they can control a game and how they handle the tight moments

You said you only watch roosters in "big games" and rattled off every loss they had this year including the one against sharks which no one labelled a big game.

How did you rate Pearce's performance in round 1 against the cowboys?

 

[DiegoNT]

You said you only watch roosters in "big games" and rattled off every loss they had this year including the one against sharks which no one labelled a big game.

How did you rate Pearce's performance in round 1 against the cowboys?

Amazing, mitchell at his best, its a shame that almost every origin is a close fought game though

How did you rate Pearce efforts in those close fought games?

 

[DiegoNT]

Just out of interest...if NSW kicks the extra conversion and wins 12-10, does anyone think Pearce's performance would've been picked over to any particular extent?

Too hard to say
Average performance but a loss and he gets criticism
average performance in a win and he probably gets away unscathed

 

[DiegoNT]

Simple question, if blue lose this year and mitchell fails to improve on his game 1 performance do we pick him again in 2016?

We can argue about who played poorly, he's club form, he's ability in big games etc till the end of the world but the simple thing is, how many more chance does he get after showing in 13 origin matches that he's simply not upto it

 

[Craig Johnston]

High 80s to low 90s in weight for Josh Jackson?! He weighs 98 kgs mate - http://www.bulldogs.com.au/team/profiles/josh-jackson.html

As such your weight argument is not really there.

As to the forwards not getting their hands on the ball, you seem to forget the dearth of possession NSW had early in the second half. At one stage NSW had made something like 100 more tackles by the mid-second half. By fulltime that differential was down to 59. Hence part of it was fatigue.

Daley's interchange strategy was poor though. He kept both starting props out there too long, and then brought them both off at virtually the same time. Merrin wasn't used until the second half. Cordner was used to replace Beau Scott and stationed on the right hand side, negating his club formation with Jennings and Tupou whom he usually lines up on the left with.

98kg is still too small at origin level for a middle forward, at that weight, i would expect that they either have an exceptional motor eg gallen or offer exceptional leg speed eg watmough, jackson's problem is he fell short of both