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The shoulder charge debate thread

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,982
Ironically posted by a man who appears to have suffered severe head trauma. What a f**king stupid thing to say. There's no way you believe that.

Interest in rugby league is not waning (if we are to believe it is) because of the shoulder charge and biff being banned. It's the same reason participation and attendance in golf, rugby, cricket or any other sport is down - discretionary spend, time utility, all that stuff.

Only in the rare cases is it 'urrr burrr durr me want hits and injuries urrrrr'


The NRL has lost 30-40% of its marketing footage since banning the shoulder charge. Seriously, go back through the NRL ads from pre-ban and they are absolutely loaded with vision of big hits.

Why was the NRL loading their ads with such footage if no one is actually attracted to the game because of it?

The is no other single play in the game that can raise the profile of the NRL like shoulder charges did. Big hits in league would be played around the world. ESPN would show clips of a big hit without even knowing what our sport was just because of the atttraction of showing 2 massive athletes blow each other up. The 2010 semi-final between the Tigers and Roosters is one of the greatest non-grand final games in league history, and the biggest highlight of that game that still gets replayed to this day is Simon Dwyer flattening Hargraves. That hit alone got its own 2 page spread in the paper the next day surrounded by quotes from league legends describing how awesome it was.

You may say that its stupid to think that big hits bring in crowds, but you might want to explain that to the NRL marketing department and media who lose their mind every time one is put on
 

Tommy Smith

Referee
Messages
21,344
How has this thread lasted 7 pages?

A young man died as a result of a shoulder charge a couple of months ago. Just to repeat that, A YOUNG MAN DIED.

Players today are so much bigger, stronger and more powerful than they ever were. As such the shoulder charge is now way too dangerous.

As proven by the fact that A YOUNG MAN DIED as a direct result of a shoulder charge.

It should be banned forever. Thankfully the NRL agree.
 

morley101

Juniors
Messages
1,018
A young man died from a cricket ball hitting his head from a bouncer... Has the bouncer been banned ?
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,982
How has this thread lasted 7 pages?

A young man died as a result of a shoulder charge a couple of months ago. Just to repeat that, A YOUNG MAN DIED.

Players today are so much bigger, stronger and more powerful than they ever were. As such the shoulder charge is now way too dangerous.

As proven by the fact that A YOUNG MAN DIED as a direct result of a shoulder charge.

It should be banned forever. Thankfully the NRL agree.


Jake Kedzlie (Raudonikis' Grandson) died trying to make a legs tackle in 2013 and copping a knee to the head. We must move to ban all tackling below thigh height immediately.

Don't like it? f**k off, A YOUNG MAN DIED!

F1 driver Jules Bianchi died after being in a medical coma for months from a severe crash. Ban motor racing. A YOUNG MAN DIED!

Philip Hughes was struck in the head by a bouncer and killed instantly, as was another indian cricketer later that same season. Ban short balls, A YOUNG MAN DIED!
 

Bronco18

Juniors
Messages
1,072
The NRL has lost 30-40% of its marketing footage since banning the shoulder charge. Seriously, go back through the NRL ads from pre-ban and they are absolutely loaded with vision of big hits.

Why was the NRL loading their ads with such footage if no one is actually attracted to the game because of it?

The is no other single play in the game that can raise the profile of the NRL like shoulder charges did. Big hits in league would be played around the world. ESPN would show clips of a big hit without even knowing what our sport was just because of the atttraction of showing 2 massive athletes blow each other up. The 2010 semi-final between the Tigers and Roosters is one of the greatest non-grand final games in league history, and the biggest highlight of that game that still gets replayed to this day is Simon Dwyer flattening Hargraves. That hit alone got its own 2 page spread in the paper the next day surrounded by quotes from league legends describing how awesome it was.

You may say that its stupid to think that big hits bring in crowds, but you might want to explain that to the NRL marketing department and media who lose their mind every time one is put on

You are right in that it's a spectacular element of the game, I don't think that should be questioned - when it first was outlawed I really did miss it. I still do to a degree. It isn't necessary for a good game though. There are other spectacular things to watch, a good shoulder charge didn't even happen in most games.

That Simon Dwyer shot wouldn't even be allowed anymore, and it shows how much we've grown up in regards to concussions in just a few years. The game continues to roll on and gets more and more dollars in TV revenue. Fostering a more free flowing style of football is much more important and entertaining IMO than big hits.
 

Bronco18

Juniors
Messages
1,072
On that Steve Matai shot, I think the devil is in policing it... it's much easier and simpler to outlaw a certain style of tackle (i.e. shoulder charge) that has distinctive characteristics than what Matai did.

How would you even classify Matai's hit? How could you possibly go about regulating it... you're not allowed to tackle too hard?

A shoulder charge 9/10 is gonna hit harder and cause more whiplash than a ball and all tackle that wraps up the defender.
 

Tommy Smith

Referee
Messages
21,344
Jake Kedzlie (Raudonikis' Grandson) died trying to make a legs tackle in 2013 and copping a knee to the head. We must move to ban all tackling below thigh height immediately.

Don't like it? f**k off, A YOUNG MAN DIED!

F1 driver Jules Bianchi died after being in a medical coma for months from a severe crash. Ban motor racing. A YOUNG MAN DIED!

Philip Hughes was struck in the head by a bouncer and killed instantly, as was another indian cricketer later that same season. Ban short balls, A YOUNG MAN DIED!
The first and third examples are freak accidents.

The second is a stupid strawman argument.

Shoulder charges are both highly dangerous and easily eliminated from the game. Completely different.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,982
The first and third examples are freak accidents.

The second is a stupid strawman argument.

Shoulder charges are both highly dangerous and easily eliminated from the game. Completely different.

You don't think Ackermans death wasn't a freak accident? Its literally the first ever death by shoulder charge in over 100 years of league. What else could you classify it as?

The death in F1 is completely comparible. The bloke died because of his sport. It was in the wet, and he crashed into a car crane that was recovering another vehicle. There are at least a dozen major f**k ups that led to his death. Why aren't F1 being held responsible and throwing in some nice knee jerk rule changes to avoid that type of accident in future, like forcing a red flag on any race which requires a vehicle to be recovered, or banning racing in the wet? probably because they realise such things would be an unnecessary overreaction
 

Jason Maher

Immortal
Messages
35,982
The first and third examples are freak accidents.

The second is a stupid strawman argument.

Shoulder charges are both highly dangerous and easily eliminated from the game. Completely different.

Even denser than I thought. You struggle with statiscally rare events, don't you?
 

Maximus

Coach
Messages
12,961
But players aren't forced to wear them. Do they sign a waiver freeing the game/bowler of a potential liable?

There is a big difference between the 2 examples. If a batsman wants to wear the safer helmet, they can, and if not they don't have to.

If the shoulder charge is allowed, what happens to the players that don't want it back? Opt out and we say shoulder charges can only be put on certain players? Or those that don't want it just have to retire?

The current administration truly do not care about the fans nor do they understand their fan base. This is a large reason why interest is down and fans are as apathetic as ever

Or maybe they think the health and safety of the players is more important than what the fans want.

Besides all of that, if the players are made aware of the risk, and as a playing group are willing to accept that risk, then why does it need to be banned?

Maybe the playing group as a whole aren't willing to accept that risk?

As I stated earlier, there are a hell of a lot more dangerous professions than rugby league in this world, yet for some reason it is only rugby league which needs to be modified. As yet I've not heard anyone explain why this is.

Yeah you're right, rugby league is the only profession in the world with health and safety rules :roll:

F1 driver Jules Bianchi died after being in a medical coma for months from a severe crash. Ban motor racing. A YOUNG MAN DIED!

This is stupid. Nobody is saying ban rugby league. Like the shoulder charge, there is rules either already introduced, or being considered as a result of Bianchi's death. The Virtual Safety Car for example has already been introduced to standardise the speed. They are considering putting something around recovery vehicles to make them safer. They are researching head protection for in front of the driver.

But no you are right, no other sport in the world brings in rules to make them safer.
 

Danish

Referee
Messages
31,982
Maybe the playing group as a whole aren't willing to accept that risk?


Anecdotal polls of players have universally shown they want it back, although I would be more than happy to give them the vote and final decision on it.

If the players as a majority don't want to accept it, then outlaw it. If they are willing to accept the risk, then bring it back.

Yeah you're right, rugby league is the only profession in the world with health and safety rules :roll:

Of course they aren't, but if other professions were run like rugby league, then they would be banned outright. If the NRL's legal risk from a player dying in league is so great, then it is a wonder how a sport like motor racing exists given how many people die in it every year, let alone professions like underground mining, deep sea fishing, etc.


This is stupid. Nobody is saying ban rugby league. Like the shoulder charge, there is rules either already introduced, or being considered as a result of Bianchi's death. The Virtual Safety Car for example has already been introduced to standardise the speed. They are considering putting something around recovery vehicles to make them safer. They are researching head protection for in front of the driver.

But no you are right, no other sport in the world brings in rules to make them safer.

I can't think of another sport in the world that just bans things outright based on media hysteria. The very sport whose studies the NRL used to justify the ban of the shoulder charge did not even ban it themselves FFS.

Contact sports inherently carry risk of serious injury. There has been no less concussions or serious injury since the introduction of the shoulder charge ban, largely because concussions have always been caused by illegal (stiff arm, shoulders to the head) or accidental (head clash, head in wrong spot making a tackle, etc) contact with the head as opposed to from whiplash by a legal hit.

If you aren't willing to accept the risk of being hurt then you simply can't play a collision sport. If the NRL wants to keep changing the rules to ban things that hurt players the only logical result will be flag football.
 

betcats

Referee
Messages
23,890
There was another tackle of the same force in that same game by Taufua on Walker. The Bulldogs centre absolutely ironed out Ferguson from a hospital pass last friday as well.

If you are going to ask how how often things happen, how about asking how often a shoulder charge has caused serious injury since they banned hits to the head? You could count the amount of concussions from legal, non-head shot shoulder charges on 1 hand and still have a couple free fingers to scratch yourself.

Besides all of that, if the players are made aware of the risk, and as a playing group are willing to accept that risk, then why does it need to be banned? As I stated earlier, there are a hell of a lot more dangerous professions than rugby league in this world, yet for some reason it is only rugby league which needs to be modified. As yet I've not heard anyone explain why this is.

That tafua hit was not on the same level. How do u know how many concussions have been?? Lol cmon. As for your third paragraph ask the nrl's lawyers.

Do u honestly believe no other proffession or industry is not subject to safety regulation changes? REALLY? This is getting silly
 
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Tommy Smith

Referee
Messages
21,344
Even denser than I thought. You struggle with statiscally rare events, don't you?
Day 1 has really gotten to you hasn't it?!

The fact is that league players are considerably bigger and more powerful than ever before. This makes the shoulder charge more dangerous. I wouldn't want a man mountain like Klemmer or Napa getting one wrong and hitting me in the head.

Thankfully we can easily reduce the danger simply by outlawing the shoulder charge. Why is that a bad thing?
 

Snappy

Coach
Messages
11,844
Shoulder charge has been banned for years. It's not coming back. Seriously, get over it.
 

TheDMC

Bench
Messages
3,408
I can see why shoulder charges have been banned but man I am going to miss them.
Such an exciting aspect of the game and we will never see them again...RIP shoulder charge

This is it in a nutshell.

Should they be banned: Probably/yes
Are we going to miss seeing them: Hell yeah.

End.

There is a lot of pathetic arguments in this thread trying to justify why the shoulder charge should not be banned (about as convincing as bronco arguments that their try is best of the year v warriors).

Cracks me up how people think their opinion/preference somehow instantly means fact or at least well reasoned argument.

Actually doesn't crack me up, just makes me think most people are really stoopid.
 

Maximus

Coach
Messages
12,961
Anecdotal polls of players have universally shown they want it back, although I would be more than happy to give them the vote and final decision on it.

If the players as a majority don't want to accept it, then outlaw it. If they are willing to accept the risk, then bring it back.

How many of those polls have been done since a player died as a result of a shoulder charge? I reckon SBW and Smith aren't the only current or former players whose minds have changed as a result

Of course they aren't, but if other professions were run like rugby league, then they would be banned outright. If the NRL's legal risk from a player dying in league is so great, then it is a wonder how a sport like motor racing exists given how many people die in it every year, let alone professions like underground mining, deep sea fishing, etc.

If the way rugby league is run is so bad, why hasn't the entire sport been banned yet? Surely after McKinnon it would have been wound up? And if that didn't do it, surely Ackerman would have been the final straw?

Motor racing has constant changes to regulations to make it safer. Look at F1 and MotoGP for example. There has been the 2 well known deaths (Bianchi and Simoncelli), but apart from that, just 2 other deaths in 20 years (one in MotoGP and one in Moto2). Based on your logic, neither should take safety precautions because of the rarity of deaths in recent times.

I'm no expert in safety regulations in mining and deep sea fishing, but I assume they have long-standing regulations to try to limit the chances of injury and death.

I can't think of another sport in the world that just bans things outright based on media hysteria. The very sport whose studies the NRL used to justify the ban of the shoulder charge did not even ban it themselves FFS.

And? They still introduced a bunch of rules to make the game safer.

Contact sports inherently carry risk of serious injury. There has been no less concussions or serious injury since the introduction of the shoulder charge ban, largely because concussions have always been caused by illegal (stiff arm, shoulders to the head) or accidental (head clash, head in wrong spot making a tackle, etc) contact with the head as opposed to from whiplash by a legal hit.

Where is your proof that there is no less concussions? There is more of a focus on concussions in recent years so you hear about them all of the time. That doesn't mean they haven't been reduced.

If you aren't willing to accept the risk of being hurt then you simply can't play a collision sport. If the NRL wants to keep changing the rules to ban things that hurt players the only logical result will be flag football.

So why are there any rules? If you don't want your head speared into the ground, don't play. If you don't want a swinging arm in the face, don't play. There are rules against spear tackles and high tackles because they are dangerous, not just because they hurt. The shoulder charge is in the same boat. It isn't banned because it hurts. It's banned because it is unsafe, and can do significant damage to the brain.

This "they're going to ban tackling next" garbage is laughable. You sound like the type of person who says "If they allow gay marriage, marrying children will be allowed next"
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
67,878
As far as I'm concerned if the NFL, after the massive litigation and research, didn't ban the shoulder charge then for me there is no legal reason to ban them. So it comes down to player safety/risk and what is deemed acceptable. RL has always worn the "toughest game in the world badge" like a medal, it's what has always attracted me to the game. the current management of the game has decided this element of it is too risky, for no reason other than level of risk it is willing to accept. This is the sad thing for me as someone who has loved the game since the late 70's. It is probably a reflection of the world today but a piece of me mourns the days when we were allowed to decide what risk each of us is willing to take in our lives. RL is dead, long live the 21st century soft version of RL!
 

Maximus

Coach
Messages
12,961
As far as I'm concerned if the NFL, after the massive litigation and research, didn't ban the shoulder charge then for me there is no legal reason to ban them.

The NFL lawsuits were related to the fact that they had information on the effects of concussions on the brain and didn't reveal the information to the players. They settled, so it has never been tested in court.

Maybe you should wait until the result of the Michael Greenfield case before stating conclusively that there is no legal reason to ban them.

So it comes down to player safety/risk and what is deemed acceptable. RL has always worn the "toughest game in the world badge" like a medal, it's what has always attracted me to the game. the current management of the game has decided this element of it is too risky, for no reason other than level of risk it is willing to accept.

Why do you have no problem with high tackles being banned, but not shoulder charges? What about grapples? Crushers? They are all dangerous tackles.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
67,878
The NFL lawsuits were related to the fact that they had information on the effects of concussions on the brain and didn't reveal the information to the players. They settled, so it has never been tested in court.

Maybe you should wait until the result of the Michael Greenfield case before stating conclusively that there is no legal reason to ban them.



Why do you have no problem with high tackles being banned, but not shoulder charges? What about grapples? Crushers? They are all dangerous tackles.

And maybe the nrl should have before banning it?

Because I have no problems with high shoulder charges being illegal, just as I have no problem with high tackles being illegal. A well executed shoulder charge is great to see and I have no problem with it, just as I have no problem with a well executed normal tackle.

There is no evidence a shoulder charge to the body is any more dangerous than a really hard arms tackle to the body such as Matais the other week. Until there, is both should be allowed.
 

Maximus

Coach
Messages
12,961
And maybe the nrl should have before banning it?

Because I have no problems with high shoulder charges being illegal, just as I have no problem with high tackles being illegal. A well executed shoulder charge is great to see and I have no problem with it, just as I have no problem with a well executed normal tackle.

There is no evidence a shoulder charge to the body is any more dangerous than a really hard arms tackle to the body such as Matais the other week. Until there, is both should be allowed.

Well actually there is. As far as I know, nobody has died as a result of a really hard arms tackle to the body.

"Bennett sat on the competition panel that digested evidence showing the average G-force for a shoulder charge was 10.682, compared to 6.056 for a conventional front-on tackle.

The research showed shoulder charges were 76 per cent greater in impact, prompting the NRL to outlaw the tackle in 2013."


http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport...ame-is-to-evolve/story-fniabm4i-1227471646336

There was also something like 20% of shoulder charges result in contact with the head.

Considering the point of impact of most shoulder charges (I guess all except for Sandow's) is on the upper body, that extra force is going to do significantly more damage to the brain than a normal front on tackle.
 
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