Thoughts on society.....

[imported_Mystery_Man]

"Maybe you haven't heard, but Christians believe he did show himself. Here's a hint - what do we celebrate in 2 days?"

Yes, but that was meant to have happened over 2000 years ago. People only know about that through the bible and the beliefs of Christians.

"Christians who believe in the Bible's authenticity say it was written by men who were inspired by God in what they wrote. The Bible itself says this too. Now, there are all degrees of more liberal Christians who don't fully believe that."

I know that is what Christians believe, but I'm not interested in that. What I was asking is why should people (non-Christians) believe that the bible was written by men inspired by God? To me, that comes back to faith, and I see no reason to have faith in that just because somebody says that these men were inspired, or because it was written in a book. I also see no reason why, taking the Christian point of view, these men could not have been flawed and were making it all up.

"The short answer is that Christians believe that Christ really was God in human form, and that those other religions came from men, not God."

Once again you've answered the question from the Christian point of view, but I'm looking for objective answers. My question was why should non-Christians believe the Christian point of view ahead of those of other religions, when the people who have that point of view are, according to that very point of view, inherently flawed and are capable of lies, deceit, poor judgement, being wrongetc.

In the end, all the answers that you have provided come back to your faith. I'm not criticising you for that, but what I was asking was why should a person (non-Christian), who has not been exposed to God/Jesus, believe that the people who wrote the bible, and the people who hold Christian beliefs, are right.

In the end, I don't believe that anyone can provide satisfactory answers to these questions. To believe in the authenticity of the bible, the beliefs of Christians, and the very existance of God all requires a leap of faith. I and, I assume, many other aethiests, are not prepared to take that leap of faith when there appears to be, in our opinion, no good or logical reason to do so.

 

[imported_Brook]

Moffo no i don't consider myself Catholic.

When i said 'not exactly' I ment that in the sense that i AM baptised and went through all of the different rites. In my own beliefs i swing somewhere between agnostic and very liberal Christian.

In my heart i think i do believe in god, what i don't believe in is all the rules and 'structure' of the church, the only rule I think is important is 'do unto others' and if you can even try to keep to that the rest is unimportant. Sadly I find that is the one most often ignored by some religious types (and I'm not talking about anyone here but more the fred niles of this world)

 

[Willow]

Canadian Steve: "You can twist it that way if you like... You can make fun of that if you like"
With respect Steve, I'm only asking the question. Although I might occasionally stir the pot a bit, I can assure I'm not making fun of your faith.
I don't have a problem with you having a god and your faith is your choice.

Having said that, wee have to agrre to disagree on statement: "if everyone chose to follow God'sdirectives according the commandments, they are surely disregarding their own free will," - imo, the threat of being damn if we do not follow the ten commandments is a little antiquated and actually compels people to follow God's law and if they don't, they are made to feel guilty.


Leisotto: "Willow - No intention to offend, but you seem quite adamant in your beliefs. The way that i look at it is that your arguing something that cannot be resolved."

No offence taken and congrats again on a fine start up thread.

I know there is no chance that this can be resolved but in all honesty, I am only asking questions and others are very adamant in their answers... or at least they are adamant is addressing the questions they choose to answer.

In any case, I don't think there is anything wrong with people having faith if thats what they truly want.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Tend to agree Brook, a lot of people have their priorities wrong in the church. But its not confined to that establishment, i think you only have to see a politician at work to see where there priorities lie. Very liberal Christian? lol, id like to join that category if possible please

"or at least they are adamant is addressing the questions they choose to answer. "

lol, come on mate. Write down 5 questions here and i promise to answer each of them individually. Its christmas, and im in the spirit of giving

Moffo

 

[CanadianSteve]

In the end, all the answers that you have provided come back to your faith. I'm not criticising you for that, but what I was asking was why should a person (non-Christian), who has not been exposed to God/Jesus, believe that the people who wrote the bible, and the people who hold Christian beliefs, are right.

The non-Christian you describe would have to do some investigating into the Bible, Christian beliefs, etc., then decide for themselves. That's what I did, after growing up with very little exposure to church. Some Christians would also say you have to come to a point in your life where you're ready to listen to God, and that God brings you to that point, or "calls" you. There are lots of stories of people who bottomed out, for example with drugs or alcohol, before turning to God to turn their life around. With me it was nothing so dramatic, but I felt there was something missing in my life.

I know some here will say religion is a crutch in those cases, but I don't see it that way.

In the end, I don't believe that anyone can provide satisfactory answers to these questions. To believe in the authenticity of the bible, the beliefs of Christians, and the very existance of God all requires a leap of faith. I and, I assume, many other aethiests, are not prepared to take that leap of faith when there appears to be, in our opinion, no good or logical reason to do so.

I feel there are satisfactory answers, and yes it's a leap of faith, but not too big, or too blind a leap. It would take a long time to write the answers to your questions in the form of a defense of, or explanation of, Christianity. And I don't think anyone's mind is being changed by any of this discussion on this thread, so maybe it's time to let it peter out. But if you're really interested, I would point you to the book <u>Mere Christianity, </u>by CS Lewis, which I have referred to in earlier posts.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

And thats what i have said in many posts,

"With me it was nothing so dramatic, but I felt there was something missing in my life."

Its a means for some people to get 'meaning' in their life. Some find it in alcohol, some gambling, some drugs, etc etc. Some do it through religion. Some do it through studying the stars...i mean, it can be anything

Matter of fact, i got one now! (VB) lol

And with that corny joke, i wish everyone the best for Christmas

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[ozbash]

I and, I assume, many other aethiests, are not prepared to take that leap of faith when there appears to be, in our opinion, no good or logical reason to do so.

and isnt that the crux of this thread?
none were born christian,some were born into it. christianity is not hereditory.
were we born atheists ? did we choose to follow the path of atheism after learning christianity or because,for some, they were never subjected to the teachings of the bible.
being a christian is a defined state, is an atheist ?

i think this discussion has answered the original question quite well
""I've always wondered, do our genes dictate the person that we become or our environment? Is it a mix of the two? ""

its got to be the enviroment....

 

[Willow]

"Its a means for some people to get 'meaning' in their life. Some find it in alcohol, some gambling, some drugs, etc etc. Some do it through religion. "

lol moffo... sounds like it has a hold of you and not the other way around.... such is the interpretation of things like free will...

I do have some more questions for you and I think there was a bit of side stepping going on but thats okay.. at the end of the day, religion is like any other debate and the rules of debate make way for extrapolating the opposition's weakness. Not that I would do such a thing.

I'll come up with some new teasers for you over the holidays... but for now, I need to play Santa Claus... bloody western commercialism.... lol

In the meantime, enjoy your religious event, mate. Same to Canadian Steve... Hope all is good at church... I'll be sleeping in.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

im not a devout christian! lol

But neways, i think we can all be evasive when it comes to answering questions if we want to

Its funny how so many people who don't believe in the event still celebrate it. hehe, got to love commercialism, as u say!

Ill catch you at church mate. Ill be in row 56, seat 4, top view of the altar, good atmosphere guaranteed

Merry Christmas mate

Moffo

 

[CanadianSteve]

Shalom

And Merry Christmas.

 

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[ONEYE_VIEW]

im manifesting

 

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[dubby]

Leisotto,don't get too proud, methinks it was my reference to GOD that started this inferno! MFC, Steve and to all who love and praise GOD, thanks for sticking up for what is the truth. To all those opposed....hmm well? JUST KIDDING!!
I remember starting an identical thread last year and got shouted down, new boy Leisotto gets a pat on the back! Willow you sound like Gus Gould and yalking about one of his pet roosters

Seriously though, i have devoted my life to GOD, and i am a born again christian, (not the evil type). HAve been for a few years now and i am a typical 20 something male. I wish you guys have seen what i've seen and know what i know. Actually i wish you knew more. I can't make you believe, but i love my Lord and Saviour, and i love talking about him. It is sad that other "people" have turned most of society against him by doing things in his name(not) and their own versions of the truth ie JW's etc. cheers all and have a merry xmas

 

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[Willow]

"Willow you sound like Gus Gould and yalking about one of his pet roosters..."
That makes no sense.

 

[ONEYE_VIEW]

The Problem of Pain
No doubt Pain as God's megaphone is a terrible instrument; it may lead to final and unrepented rebellion. But it gives the only opportunity the bad man can have for amendment. It removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of a rebel soul. If the first and lowest operation of pain shatters the illusion that all is well, the second shatters the illusion that what we have, whether good or bad in itself, is our own and enough for us. Everyone has noticed how hard it is to turn our thoughts to God when everything is going well with us. We "have all we want" is a terrible saying when “all" does not include God. We find God an interruption. As St. Augustine says somewhere, "God wants to give us something, but cannot, because our hands are full--there's nowhere for Him to put it." Or as a friend of mine said, "We regard God as an airman regards his parachute; it's there for emergencies but he hopes he'll never have to use it. Now God who has made us, knows what we are and that our happiness lies in Him. Yet we will not seek it in Him as long as He leaves us any other resort where it can even plausibly be looked for. While what we call "our own life" remains agreeable we will not surrender it to Him. What then can God do in our interests but make "our own life" less agreeable to us, and take away the plausible sources of false happiness? It is just here, where God's providence seems at first to be most cruel, that the Divine humility, the stooping down of the highest , most deserves praise. We are perplexed to see misfortune falling upon decent, inoffensive, worthy people--on capable, hard-working mothers of families or diligent, thrifty little trades-people on those who have worked so hard, and so honestly, for their modest stock of happiness and now seem to be entering on the enjoyment of it with the fullest right.... Let me implore the reader to try to believe, if only for the moment, that God, who made these deserving people, may really be right when He thinks that their modest prosperity and the happiness of their children are not enough to make them blessed: that all this must fall from them in the end, and that if they have not learned to know Him they will be wretched. And therefore He troubles them, warning them in advance of an insufficiency that one day they will have to discover. The life to themselves and their families stands between them and the recognition of their need; He makes that life less sweet to them. The Problem of Pain
No doubt Pain as God's megaphone is a terrible instrument; it may lead to final and unrepented rebellion. But it gives the only opportunity the bad man can have for amendment. It removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of a rebel soul. If the first and lowest operation of pain shatters the illusion that all is well, the second shatters the illusion that what we have, whether good or bad in itself, is our own and enough for us. Everyone has noticed how hard it is to turn our thoughts to God when everything is going well with us. We "have all we want" is a terrible saying when “all" does not include God. We find God an interruption. As St. Augustine says somewhere, "God wants to give us something, but cannot, because our hands are full--there's nowhere for Him to put it." Or as a friend of mine said, "We regard God as an airman regards his parachute; it's there for emergencies but he hopes he'll never have to use it. Now God who has made us, knows what we are and that our happiness lies in Him. Yet we will not seek it in Him as long as He leaves us any other resort where it can even plausibly be looked for. While what we call "our own life" remains agreeable we will not surrender it to Him. What then can God do in our interests but make "our own life" less agreeable to us, and take away the plausible sources of false happiness? It is just here, where God's providence seems at first to be most cruel, that the Divine humility, the stooping down of the highest , most deserves praise. We are perplexed to see misfortune falling upon decent, inoffensive, worthy people--on capable, hard-working mothers of families or diligent, thrifty little trades-people on those who have worked so hard, and so honestly, for their modest stock of happiness and now seem to be entering on the enjoyment of it with the fullest right.... Let me implore the reader to try to believe, if only for the moment, that God, who made these deserving people, may really be right when He thinks that their modest prosperity and the happiness of their children are not enough to make them blessed: that all this must fall from them in the end, and that if they have not learned to know Him they will be wretched. And therefore He troubles them, warning them in advance of an insufficiency that one day they will have to discover. The life to themselves and their families stands between them and the recognition of their need; He makes that life less sweet to them.

 

[El Duque]

You could at least credit C.S. Lewis for copying his work.

 

[Willow]

Dubby: "I remember starting an identical thread last year and got shouted down"
I don't remember an identical thread by you that was shouted down. Everyone is given a fair go...
Care to elaborate?

 

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