Thoughts on society.....

[Willow]

Well I don't agree Bronco. In his own image does not specify just physical being. Have you read the Bible? I mean its pretty much open to interpretation from cover to cover... some of its a good read actually, especially the porno bits.

But seriously, this is always the backstop for contradiction... 'it's open to interpretation'

To be quite honest, I'm a little disappointed that no one has used the obvious of all counter arguments... that being that God gave humans free will... another contradiction.

Wouldn't be more honest to say, 'we all make mistakes'...? even god....?

 

[imported_E_A__]

I dunno if anyone noticed but I am not a fan of this type of discussion.

But for what it's worth, I can't believe that "God" exists with what happens on a day to day basis in the World. If he does exist and he has left usto it, it just makes him a prick.

Then there's Martin Short, explain that one, GOD!

 

[El Duque]

That's the get out clause, Willow.

I think the biggest joke is that the Catholics say the Pope is not fallible. So if he's not then how can God be?

 

[El Duque]

I should've said that the Catholic doctrine says the Pope is infallible.

So if you're a true Catholic you must believe that he is never wrong and one would think God is too.

So if God is infallible he must of beencorrect in creating a world that Osama bin Laden is a part of, right?

 

[Willow]

El Duque,

We cannot disprove the existence of a god.

God can exist in the Universe simply because none of us know the full extent of the Universe. This is a strong argument in the minds of many Christians and Muslims.

Therefore, it is also impossible to disprove the existence of Unicorns or Dragons.
But for some reason, this is laughed off by religious folk as being mere fantasy.

At the end of the day, they fall back on faith which is fine by me... can't argue with bloody mindedness. Each to their own and good luck. God has no dissatisfied customers because they're all dead etc...

I'll borrow a quote here:

While believers may find comfort in being faithful to impossibilities, there is no greater satisfaction than a clear mind. You may choose to serve an impossible God. I will choose reality.

 

[Willow]

btw El, I hear your point that the Pope is the unchallenged ruler of the Catholic church.

I think most accept that the Vatican is part of the world economy. Its not too cynical to suggest that there is a long history of corruption within the Papal State.

Those walls around the Vatican are there for a reason.

 

[CanadianSteve]

To be quite honest, I'm a little disappointed that no one has used the obvious of all counter arguments... that being that God gave humans free will... another contradiction. post #141


And so God gave man free will that he might increase in virtue by his own efforts and become, a free moral being, a worthy object of God's love. Freedom entails freedom to go wrong: man did, in fact, go wrong, misusing God's gift and doing evil. Pain is a by-product of evil; and so pain came into the world as a result of man's misuse of God's gift of free will. post #131

I would say God is not an absentee landlord; He does care about the world, but man continues to screw it up. I would argue that if the world is getting worse, as some here seem to suggest, it is because the world is turning away from God, becoming more and more secular. Christianity has been a good influence in the world in many ways, despite the religious wars and corrupt practices of some Christians which have been pointed out. One small example - the reformers who worked for child labour laws and other reforms in Industrial revolution Britain were Christians. The Abolitionists who worked against slavery in the US in the 1800s were Christians.

BTW, I think (Canadian) Martin Short is a talented, funny guy. What's wrong with him?

 

[Willow]

And so God gave man free will that he might increase in virtue by his own efforts and become, a free moral being, a worthy object of God's love.

But hang on, how is it that I have to be a 'worthy object' of God's love and yet still maintain free will?

 

[CanadianSteve]

By choosing to follow God and his teachings.

If everyone followed the 10 Commandments and the Golden Rule (Do unto others...) we wouldn't have much conflict. But man has trouble doing that. Which brings it back to the nature v. nurture debate - put a different way, is man basically good or bad?

 

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[Willow]

But Steve... if everyone chose to follow God'sdirectives according the commandments, they are surely disregarding their own free will. That much must be obvious.

To say otherwise is making a moral judgement and that is in violation of God's law.

 

[imported_Mystery_Man]

"Atheism cannot be proven - it involves a leap of faith. As an atheist myself I'm more than prepared to accept that I've gone beyond what "cold hard evidence" alone can provide in terms of answers, and that I as such, have a faith too.
Bertram Russell stated that the application of pure logic to the problem of religion will only result in the result of agnosticism (literally meaning "I do not know").

Faith - in either direction - cannot be proven or disproven by evidence as faith is a standpoint that, by definition, goes beyong evidence."

I understand what is being said here, but I strongly disagree.

By the rationale used, you could say that it requires a leap of faith to not believe in Superman. Sure, there is no proof of his existance, but it can't be proven that he didn't or doesn't exist.

If it requires a leap of faith to be an aetheist, it is an infinitely smaller one than that which is required to believe in God.

 

[imported_Mystery_Man]

Assuming that God is real, why doesn't he show himself? Why doesn't he give people a reason to believe? I'm sure that people will answer this by saying that you need to have faith -but faith in what? Faith in the beliefs of Christians? Faith in the bible?
It has been pointed out on many occasions that man is imperfect. Yet the bible was written by man. Christians are people. Why should people, therefore,have faith in the bible,a book written by man? Why should people have faith in the beliefsof Christian people instead of the beliefs of Muslim or Hindu people?

 

[CanadianSteve]

Assuming that God is real, why doesn't he show himself? Why doesn't he give people a reason to believe?MM

Maybe you haven't heard, but Christians believe he did show himself. Here's a hint - what do we celebrate in 2 days?

It has been pointed out on many occasions that man is imperfect. Yet the bible was written by man. Christians are people. Why should people, therefore,have faith in the bible,a book written by man?Christians who believe in the Bible's authenticity say it was written by men who were inspired by God in what they wrote. The Bible itself says this too. Now, there are all degrees of more liberal Christians who don't fully believe that.

Why should people have faith in the beliefsof Christian people instead of the beliefs of Muslim or Hindu people? The short answer is that Christians believe that Christ really was God in human form, and that those other religions came from men, not God. Again, some liberal Christians wouldn't hold that position strongly, and of course Muslims and Hindus wouldn't agree. Some people throw up their hands and say no religion is true, others investigate them and decide that one is true, or none.I believe it's up to the individual to decide - you can't be born into a religion as some, including Catholics, believe. Where I do object is when people say that religion is only a blind faith, and no intelligence goes into it.I did a lot of reading before I became a Christian, and became convinced, like C.S. Lewis (though I'm nowhere near as smart as him), that it was true.This is not to say that faith doesn't enter into it - faith is important too.

But Steve... if everyone chose to follow God'sdirectives according the commandments, they are surely disregarding their own free will. That much must be obvious. Well, everyone isn't going to do it, that's clear from history. But you can follow God's directives and not surrender your free will. When Australia entered the 2 world wars, some men chose to join the army, right? They made a free will choice (though I know many felt compelled for social reasons) to join something bigger than themselves, where they would be governed by rules and the orders of a higher authority.

To say otherwise is making a moral judgement and that is in violation of God's law. Sorry, I don't follow understand your point here.

 

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[Willow]

MM: Assuming that God is real, why doesn't he show himself? Why doesn't he give people a reason to believe?MM
CS: Maybe you haven't heard, but Christians believe he did show himself. Here's a hint - what do we celebrate in 2 days?

In two days time, Christians celebrate the supposed birth of Jesus Christ. God didn't show himself and never has... at least not in the physical sense that MM (I think) says.
So God did show himself through Jesus? In that case its a bit of a gimme... I mean, in reality, we don't have proof of this.

Christians do indeed worship the deity, Jesus. They also worship God separately. The same for those who worship Mary.... and lets not forget the Holy Ghost (so help me god). A lot of people pray to Angels and Saints.

Thats a lot of deities for a one god religion.

 

[Willow]

"you can follow God's directives and not surrender your free will. When Australia entered the 2 world wars, some men chose to join the army, right? "

Actually Steve, the men who chose to go to war isn't a great example if you don't mind me saying.

While many willingly went off to risk death, a number of others did so under peer group pressure. In WWI, Les Darcy (the boxer) was shunned by society at large for refusing to join the military. The pressure on young fit men to go and fight was enormous.

I don't say this to undermine you're argument and I can see you probably understand this. Its just point about social conditioning and something that is probably closer to the thread's intentions.

 

[Willow]

Willow: To say otherwise is making a moral judgement and that is in violation of God's law.
CS: Sorry, I don't follow understand your point here.

In the full context of the entire statement it should make sense. Its all about people passing judgment on others... like they are speaking for God.

What of people who have never heard of God? There's still some 'godless' people in the world who have their own systems of belief and have had almost no contact with westerners. Are they destined for hell?
Come to think of it Steve... do you think I'm destined for hell?

 

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