Thoughts on society.....

[Cronulla_Mania]

"history shows that it,s always been a case of good v. evil or evil v.evil (can,t think of any conflict involving good v. good )Yep,it is that simple-its only the nature of evil that is complex ."
Exactly what does all that mean?

I find no historical consistency that shows good v evil being the sole source of conflict. Too many holes in such a conclusion.

Hold on, your twisting the argument mate. Midas never said that the good v evil argument was the source of conflict. He just said that "its always been a case of good v evil" That doesnt necessarily mean that it started as a case of good v evil. The conflict usually develops into a case of good v evil, mainly because of the media and other 'influential groups' taking sides in the conflict. But 90% of the time, there is a side on the right side and a side on the wrong, if you apply common sense and level-headedness to your analysis. I mean, the definition of conflict assumes that 2 people or groups are taking opposing views/positions on a subject!

Moffo

 

[Willow]

"Hold on, your twisting the argument mate.."
Well coming from the master of such things, I take that as a compliment.

All I ever said was that things are not as simple as packaging them into good vs evil. I think you're taking out just one small part and not taking in the entire view. That is, that there is no real answer when people are involved.

Totake a good v evil stance is the same as taking sides - 'us against them'. When in reality, it is this very perception that fuels the fire of conflict.

If you think someone or some people are evil...they may think the very same thing of you. So who is right? Both sides think they are fighting on the side of good and both sides think the other side is evil. So therefore, it can be argued that they cancel each out... unless offcourse we can have good v good and evil v evil happening at the same time.

Its all part of one's perception and how they apply that perception to logic. A variation on each to their own. Its when people think they have all the answers that we start getting into hot water.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Master of the twist? I am a uni student, so i guess it comes naturally

I agree with what you say as well. It is a matter of perception. But thats why i qualified my statement with 'if you apply common sense and level-headedness to your analysis". I mean, the Germans gassing the nazis, if one applied an independent and objective opinion of those events, how could it possibly be twisted around to suggest that what they were doing was good?

Good v Evil exists in the minds of those who participate in conflicts. But if you take it above that level, and to the people that sit on an independent level and have no direct involvement in the conflict (such as a professor or doctor of some note, that always come on the TV to analyse wars and other things), they would usually have a fairly accurate view of who is 'in the wrong'. I mean, anyone with a 'clear and unbiased' view could say that Germany were in the wrong when they started invading other countries during WW2

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[imported_midas]

Willow
"there is no heaven and there is no hell".You seem to be very definite about that.
I think there is only one way to find out for sure and I would really like to delay that for as long as possible.

 

[imported_pastor-borderline]

"Its when people think they have all the answers that we start getting into hot water" Was that a dig at Dubby....because if it was, then look at his initial launch into his doctrine "From achristian point of view...." He then submitted his opinion, but the tone in his post never sounded as absolute as you would have made it out to be......assuming that was what you were getting at. If that isn't what you were getting at, disregard. BTW- Christianity, and I suppose most religion, is declaring reliance on God (whether you beleive in him or not is irrelevant to this point) and admitting that they, themselves, do not have all the answers. I don't speak for Christians by any means, but it is my understanding that one's realisation of the fact that they need God is the foundation of one's Christian walk.

 

[imported_midas]

"people think they have all the answers" .Half their luck.I have been on this earth for 50 years and I still don,t understand all the questions !

 

[ozbash]

in the good v bad argument,the christians should be the last ones to preach.
most (the born again variety) were bad and either they were about to get caught out or just became sick of their way of life and christianity was an easy way out.
religion is a weakness, it is a crutch people have LEARNED to use to cope with everyday life.

people were never born religious,they were born into it.
speaking as an ex catholic and born again atheist,religion is the singlemost paramount cause of the problems in the world.

i am not taking a shot at anyone here, i respect peoples views (moff/dubby) on christianity and i,m not attempting to put them down or say they are wrong....its just i believe i,m right .

 

[Willow]

Moffo:
The WWII example is often the first and most obvious one that is thrown into good v evil debates. Its true that its hard to argue with what the Nazis did but believe it or not, people do believe that they working for good and the Jews were evil. The same Nazis would go to church on Sundays.
There is also a good amount of information available which places a lot of blame on the Allies and the 'side of good' for the rise of Nazism in Europe. So even in this extreme example, there is still conjecture.

A more rcent example would be the idealogical war of Vietnam whne Capitalism and Communisn met head on. Many people believe Comminism to be evil and the West were fighting the good fight. But I ask, did evil win in Vietnam or were the evil invaders booted out?

Imho, people use good/evil/heavan/hell to suit their own agendas and thats why I don't believe this good v evil concept to be a valid reason for forming an opinion.

...and midas, I am very definite about that.

 

[imported_midas]

ozbash
Religion,per se,is not the cause of many of the world,s problems but organised or institutionalised religion certainly is.Extremists,whether in Northern Ireland,Iraq or wherever,are not religious people.They delude themselves that they are but its just a cover or an attempt to dignify barbaric behaviour.
Like you I am an ex-Catholic ("lapsed" is the euphemism I use.) but I haven,t got to the atheist stage yet.I find it,s about line ball with pros and cons and I really would like to believe in a greater being .

 

[imported_pastor-borderline]

I believe it would be wrong of me to judge God by Christians. Christians are the worst advertisment for Christianity, and it isn't hard to find fault with Christians. I am not into religion. Religion is man's attempt to reach God. Christianity is God's attempt to reach man. Men turn Christianity into a religion

 

[Willow]

btw Meth, I'd appreciate if you didnt put words into my mouth or tell me what I'm thinking. I'd forgotten about Dubby and I respect his right to opinion. But if he has something to say I'm sure he can speak for himself as well.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Oh geez, here comes the religion debate again!

"But I ask, did evil win in Vietnam or were the evil invaders booted out?"

My point of view? The US invaded. I know the US wern't the only country that had troops in vietnam, but it was a US led offensive from everything i have read. Sure, there were problems in the country, but name any country today and i will name you major societal issues within them. Say if an Aussie police officer goes out and shoots 10 Lebanese people dead tomorrow, would the US have the right to but in and tell us what to do? Of course not, but thats what happened (on a grander scale, ill give that), with Vietnam. Things went wrong, the US stepped in and told people what to do. That is why they are so hated.

"people do believe that they working for good and the Jews were evil"

IMO again, the only people that believed that were nazis and jew haters. Once again, im only arguing it from the viewpoint of people who would have an objective view on the matter

Agree with midas. Ozbash, religion isn't evil. Its those who exploit it for personal gain. Religion is not a weakness, its a mean of living a fulfilling life for many people. Some people get this 'fulfillness' through being alcholics, mad gamblers, sex addicts, drug addicts, whatever. Some get it through religion. And until someone can prove that 'religion' as such, or the characters such as Jesus contained in it are 'fictional', i won't sway my opinion that religion is valid.

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

"Christians are the worst advertisment for Christianity, and it isn't hard to find fault with Christians"

How so? Thats a ridiculous argument. Because we have some bad eggs in our ranks?

Look at Australia for example. We list people such as Martin Bryant, Chopper Read, Jodee Rich, Peter McIntyre, Ivan Milat and Mal Kolston as Australians. Does that make all Australians a bad advertisement for Australia?

Moffo

 

[Willow]

"The US invaded. I know the US wern't the only country that had troops in vietnam, but it was a US led offensive from everything i have read. "
And the French were there before that.. I thouht it best to be generic when saying 'invaders'.
lol.. might have been safer to stick with League vs Union when thinking about good v evil.

 

[imported_pastor-borderline]

Willow-I didn't put words into your mouth. You made a statement that was fairly open to interpretation. That was how I interpreted it, and I remarked according to my interpretation. You will notice, however, that I laid a disclaimer of sorts.... "assuming that was what you were getting at. If that isn't what you were getting at, disregard." The next paragraph wasn't intended for you specifically, it was an open comment in response to one of your statements, submitted for debate. In any event, apologies for any offense, as none was intended Moffo- I don't label people hypocrites...that is a weak argument and is commonly used by people like me to deny responsibility for my own decision or apathy. But the fact is, according to surveys I have viewed, that most depart from faith because of people...the people in their congregation, the attitudes of people, the actions of people, people not walking how they are talking etc..... It's not a ridiculous argument, and what am I arguing by that statement. that's personal testimony and I, unlike some might (nobody on here thus far), am not using it as "evidence" to disprove God's existence. Don't get me wrong....I know some great Christians...and I know some bad ones. My point is it would be ridiculous for me to guage God on either one of those two catergories of people

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Yeh ok, i take your point on the French being there first. I was unaware of that. But in the fair dinkum department, it was a US dominated 'invasion'.

Fair enough Meth, but in the previous post i got the idea that you were suggesting that all christians do not represent the faith well. And im far from holier than thou, there would be much fault to find in my character. But to just label it as 'christians are the worst advertisement for christianity' is a bit to generalised IMO. All of the missionaires in countries such as Africa who help the sick cannot be accused of doing bad things by the faith. But yeh, i take your point, its personal testmony, and it would be impossible to survey everyone's beliefs and responses to christianity

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[CyberKev]

I'd like to hear from Sideshow Mel on this one...

No really, I would...

Sorry to squibb the issue on such a deep and well thought out topic, guys, but after 8+ years of sociologically-focused tertiary study this is too much like work; its so close to Christmas, and I'm done burnt-out...

CyberKev

 

[ozbash]

moff, i dont think religion is evil.
i have experienced some very evil religious people,the nuns in the convent, the bros at de la salle.they try and terrorise you into a belief. i have yet to meet a more sadistic,brutal bunch of people doing what they do in the name of "god".

i think some people are more suited to religion than others. my grandmother was a religious maniac, she had great plans for me to become a priest (father ozbash),i was enrolled at the local priest school in christchurch, had the nuns coming around home for catechism etc,really getting me primed up for it.i was the most screwed up kid in the city and eventually, my ma and pa saw what was going on and stopped it.
all in the name of god,, they were in fact brainwashing me.

i honestly believe that all catholic kids have had their minds messed with and are worse off because of it.

the catholics god is a god to be feared....
thats not what its all about,i dont think.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Mate, i could see the Father Ozbash in you

You are completely right, mymother has told me similar things about how fierce nuns used to be. Demanding, willing to use the cain at all costs, more or less using religion as a means to do as they please. I dont doubt that, and they are examples of people who use religion for less than 'acceptable' practices. But it was a societal thing at the time, not confined to religion. It wasn't that long ago that kids were taken away from their parents in Australia. It wasn't that long ago that smacking and even abusing your child was an 'acceptable' practice (i cant find a better word than acceptable, what i mean to say is that it isn't seen in the bad light than as it is now).

"i honestly believe that all catholic kids have had their minds messed with and are worse off because of it."

That might have been true in the past, but from what i experienced, teachers en masse were quite level headed with their teachings of religion. They didn't force it down our throat as such.

"the catholics god is a god to be feared...."

Mate, times have changed. As i argued ab nauseum in the other thread, the perception of God changes all the time. God is still God, its just the way that we view him that changes. I can assure you, he is not taught to be feared in modern day society. Those days are in the past. And I went to a catholic school, so i can assure you of this

Moffo

 

[ozbash]

fair enuff moff, things had to change and hopefully its all for the better.

i wasnt having a shot at you or dubbys views/beliefs. you both have the courage of your convictions to air your opinions and i respect you both for that...
i just dont go along with you.