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Thoughts on society.....

imported_JoeD

Juniors
Messages
653
What is the nature of man? Are we basically good, or evil?

Depends what your definitions of good and evil are. I'd say in any case that when we are born we are neither one or the other. I'm no anthropolgist and I have no idea whether this is true or not but if you strip humanity back to its most simplist form, ie a hunter gatherer community, my guess is that they don't really experience people being evil, like we do in a modern society. They don't have problems with crime, greed, war, desease, famine, etc So if you take the view that at one stage all of humanity was once hunter/gatherers then I guess you could say the nature of man is good and that we have learned to be evil.
 
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4,446
Yes, but if a child was born, never educated and was never taught a thing, wouldn't they resort to primal instincts? I mean, people have to be taught that things such as killing and stealing are wrong. I dont think kids are born with that knowledge and as such, they are born with that instinct. Does that make them inherently evil?? Hmmm, perhaps.

Moffo
 

imported_JoeD

Juniors
Messages
653
Do you mean someone like Tarzan? Raised by apes? ;)

if a child was born, never educated and was never taught a thing

This is a highly hypothetical situation because that child would have to be born and then removed and put in isolation. How he would react after that would be anybodies guess.

wouldn't they resort to primal instincts?

I guess you would have to define primal instincts. I would say that everybody has a survival instinct in them, which is to say that in adverse conditions people do what they have to in order to survive. This does not necessarily include murderingor stealing or anything evil. However in extreme cases it might. Should we judge the general nature of man when he is confronted with extreme situations? Another question to ask is, it is generally accepted that stealing is wrong. Yet would you say that if a person was starving and they stole some food from somebody that had plenty,would they be committing anevil act?


 

imported_JoeD

Juniors
Messages
653
Moff reading your post again, I'd say that people would have to be taught the concepts of murdering and stealing before they can be taught that they are wrong.
 
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4,446
Hmmm yes true, but they don't have to understand the concept for other people to realise that they are doing the 'wrong thing'. Nor would they need to understand the concept in order to do it. They just wouldn't know that what they were doing was wrong. Evil is perhaps a strong word, but the same word (ie: stealing) can be applied to knocking off a $2 magazine or a Million dollar gold ring. Knocking off a bit of food from a rich guy probably wouldnt be considered overly evil, but i guess it does come down to the definition of evil

Or even the fact that some religions belive that you are born with sin and are 'cleansed' as such when you are baptised :eek:

Moffo
 

imported_JoeD

Juniors
Messages
653
I think that humans are inherently good and that we learn our evilness. In fact one could argue that there are no evil people in the world at all. Western society seems to take the view that if you are mentally ill you can be excused of your apparent evilness. Sorry I should correct that, western society takes the view that if you are obviously mentally ill you can be excused. Signs of obvious mental illness include, talking to yourself, dribbling, wearing dirty clothes, you know what I mean.However people who appear moresane, talk well, dress well, etc somebody like Hitler for example, people dub him to be evil. Was he evil or just mentally ill? How about Osama? Is he evil, or mentally ill?
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,058
When someone commits an obscene crime that defies description, we often call them 'sick' before calling them 'evil'. That is, they are acting against what is naturally acceptable... or against accepted instincts.

Moffo: "if a child was born, never educated and was never taught a thing, wouldn't they resort to primal instincts?"

I don't think 'primal instincts' are evil or in need of correction. Primal communities are not evil.

I tend to think that the ills of society condition people to become dickheads. Not that this is an excuse... most of the time, people have to be responsible for their own actions.

But it may bethesystem of governmentor lack of direction (in an unforgiving world) that drives people away from their natural 'primalinstincts' - to become part of the community and help others around them.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,058
Sorry for the ambiguity in the last paragraph...

But it may bethesystem of governmentor lack of direction (in an unforgiving world) that drives people away from their natural 'primalinstincts' - to become part of the community and help others around them.

Just to clarify, it should have read...

But it may bethat it isthe system of governmentor lack of direction (in an unforgiving world) that drives people away from their natural 'primalinstincts' - by primal instincts, I mean to become part of the community and help others around them.

Simplified, I think people are naturally proned tohelp others but are restrained by the pressures of society and its so called 'values'.


 
Messages
125
People aren't born good. People aren't born evil. They are just born.

People don't do good things. People don't do evil things. They just do things.

Think about it. Open your minds. You can only truly be free by rejecting everything that you've ever been taught to be true.
 

imported_JoeD

Juniors
Messages
653
I think I agree with you on your first 2 points MM but that last one just comes across as pseudo-spiritual psycho babble. How about you can only be free if you think for yourself? How could I be truly free if I followed your advice? Wouldn't that just be doing what somebody else told me to do?


 

Dr Oneye

Juniors
Messages
3
Behind the Ha-Ha Walls
Summary:
It's 1957 and a young man takes on a job as an attendant in the infamous male wards of Sydney's most famous psychiatric institution - the Callan Park Mental Hospital.
What had once been a fine, compassionate and forward thinking Hospital for the Insane was grossly overcrowded and rundown by the 1940s. By the time Stan Alchin started in the 1950s, conditions were even worse and the culture of violence and oppression was well and truly entrenched.
Callan Park was housing everyone from the merely depressed to the criminally insane. And patients stayed for years...often for the rest of their lives.
Hear Stan Alchin's eyewitness account of the horror behind the ha-ha walls in the lead up to the 1961 Royal Commission into Callan Park Mental Hospital.


IT IS YOUR environment THAT IS THE PROBLEM & THE PEOPLE IN IT & WHAT THEY DO TO YOU;)
 
Messages
125
How about you can only be free if you think for yourself? How could I be truly free if I followed your advice? Wouldn't that just be doing what somebody else told me to do?

Good point, Joe, but I think we're essentially trying to say the same thing.

What I meant was that it's hard to think for yourself when your conditioned to believe that certain things are good or bad, right or wrong, etc. I think that the best way to think yourself is to start with a clean slate. Just an opinion, though.
 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
from CS Lewis: "We may put this in another way. Each man is at every moment subjected to several sets of law but there is only one of these which he is free to disobey. As a body, he is subjected to gravitation and cannot disobey it; if you leave him unsupported in mid-air, he has no more choice about falling than a stone has. As an organism, he is subjected to various biological laws which he cannot disobey anymore than an animal can. That is, he cannot disobey those laws which he shares with other things; but the law which is peculiar to his human nature, the law he does not share with animals or vegetables or inorganic things, is the one he can disobey if he chooses. This law was called the Law of Nature because people thought that every one knew it by nature and did not need to be taught it. They did not mean, of course, that you might not find an odd individual here and there who did not know it, just as you find a few people who are colour-blind or have no ear for a tune. But taking the race as a whole, they thought that the human idea of decent behavior was obvious to everyone. And I believe they were right. If they were not, then all the things we said about the war were nonsense. What was the sense in saying the enemy were in the wrong unless Right is a real thing which the Nazis at bottom knew as well as we did and ought to have practiced? If they had no notion of what we mean by right, then, though we might still have had to fight them, we could no more have blamed them for that then for the colour of their hair. I know that some people say the idea of a Law of Nature or decent behavior known to all men is unsound, because different civilizations and different ages have had quite different moralities. But this is not true. There have been differences between their moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total difference. If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks and Romans, what will really strike him will be how very like they are to each other and to our own. Some of the evidence for this I have put together in the appendix of another book called The Abolition of Man; but for our present purpose I need only to ask the reader to think what a totally different morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a country where two and two make five. Men have differed as regards what people you ought to be unselfish to--whether it was only your own family, or your fellow countrymen, or everyone. But they have always agreed that you ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked. But the most remarkable thing is this. Whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this in a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if you try breaking on to him he will be complaining "It's not fair" before you can say Jack Robinson. A nation may say treaties do not matter; but the next minute, they spoil their case by saying that the particular treaty they want to break was an unfair one. But if treaties do not matter, and if there is not such thing as Right and Wrong--in other words, if there is no Law of Nature--what is the difference between a fair treaty and an unfair one? Have they not let the cat out of the bag and shown that, whatever they say, they really know the Law of Nature just like anyone else? It seems, then, we are forced to believe in a real Right and Wrong. People may be sometimes mistaken about them, just as people sometimes get their sums wrong; but they are not a matter of mere taste and opinion any more than the multiplication table. Now if we are agreed about that, I go on to my next point, which is this. None of us is really keeping the Law of Nature. If there are any exceptions among you, I apologize to them. They had much better read some other work, for nothing I am going to say concerns them. And now, turning to the ordinary human beings who are left: I hope you will not misunderstand what I am going to say. I am not preaching, and Heaven knows I do not pretend to be better than anyone else. I am only trying to call attention to a fact; the fact that this year, or this month, or, more likely, this very day, we have failed to practice ourselves the kind of behavior we expect from other people. There may be all sorts of excuses for us. That time you were so unfair to the children was when you were very tired. That slightly shady business about the money--the one you have almost forgotten--came when you were very hard up. And what you promised to do for old So-and-so and have never done--well, you never would have promised if you had known how frightfully busy you were going to be. And as for your behavior to your wife (or husband) or sister (or brother) if I knew how irritating they could be, I would not wonder at it--and who the dickens am I, anyway? I am just the same. that is to say, I do not succeed in keeping the Law of Nature very well, and the moment anyone tells me I am not keeping it, there starts up in my mind a string of excuses as long as your arm. The question at the moment is not whether they are good excuses. The point is that they are one more proof of how deeply, whether we like if or not, we believe in the Law of Nature. If we do not believe in decent behavior, why should we be so anxious to make excuses for not having behaved decently? The truth is, we believe in decency so much--we feel the Rule of Law pressing on us so--that we cannot bear to face the fact that we are breaking it, and consequently we try to shift the responsibility. For you notice that it is only for our bad behaviour that we find all these explanations. It is only our bad temper that we put down to being tired or worried or hungry; we put our good temper down to ourselves. These, then, are the two points I wanted to make. First, that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it. These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in. (Mere Christianity)" Sorry for the length. Lewis goes on to argue that this "Law of Nature" is our conscience. We have an innate knowledge or sense of right and wrong, which he argues comes from God. But we often choose to do wrong, or "sin" in Christian terms.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,058
Knowing 'right from wrong' is part of our conscience because it's instinct driven.

We learnt eons ago that we could progress as long as we stuck together in communities. Indivudually, humans didn't stand much of a chance but as a group, they offered each other support bases to develop from.

People who diverge from this basic instinct soon find themselves exiled from society which lessens their chances of survival.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,058
Crikey... CS Lewis again... I reckon he'd be a real hoot at the weekend bbqs.. lol

 
M

Marcus

Guest
I believe we are born into a sinful world.

The very fact that we have emotion is testament to that.

Imagine if we didn't have emotion... like we couldn't feel anger, joy, sorrow, love, hate, fear, excitement, empathyetc. Basically, imagine if we felt nothing... is this "freedom" as some might put it? Or could it be "hell"? ...Or could it be the case that we are just not alive?

IMO there is such a thing as good and evil - its a balancing act. One cannot exist without the other. Its like all things opposite. There is a positive and a negative; up and a down; left and right; man and woman; happy and sad; day and night; giving and taking; protron and neutronetc.

Can a good act produce evil?.... yes
Can an evil act produce good?.... yes


 

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