Todd Greenberg has got to go!

[East Coast Tiger]

Man, way to clutch at straws. Losing 3 out of 4 isnt that much better. And I said they were "able to", i didnt say "they did". (and, for the record, the reason the Crushers didnt jump wasnt ARL brilliance, they just werent wanted by SL)...

You preference for growth is an odd one. Is it better to bring in a new NRL team and have them jump ship to Union after a few year or just avoid the expansion all together.

Im not defending the current mob, but it doesnt make the ARL people any less shit at their jobs....



Why were they ever able to make the decision? Why did the fate of the league depend on the loyalty of the Clubs?

The answer is pretty simple: Because the ARL was too incompetent to secure the good clubs and take the option off the table.

Maybe you should know the history of the sport before trying to rewrite it. Correcting stupid people's blatant bulllshit is not clutching at straws. For the record you don't know what the f**k you're talking about.

You keep wanking on about the ARL not "securing" clubs as if any administration ever can. They made them sign agreements to stay with the ARL and it was deemed illegal. If NRL clubs wanted to set up their own league again and had the funding to do it there would be nothing any admin could legally do to stop it. The "fate of the league" still relies on the loyalty of the clubs you clown and it always will.

And suggesting an expansion club would switch to union after a few years is just pure speculation. When you speculate about something potentially happening in the future that has never happened at all YOU are the one clutching at straws. Arguing a governing body is better than one that expanded the game because it hasn't expanded because a new club would go to union is one of the most fanciful and irrelevant lines of argument ever.

But this is from the tosser who wants to change the name of the sport so I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[BuffaloRules]

Yep.. gotta agree that Arko and Quayle had some vision and looked to expand and put away a few quid when the game was being run on the smell of an oily rag,,,

The last couple of blokes running the show are chewing through hundreds of millions a year yet the game is broke to the extent of having to go to the banks for loans to continue cash flow..,

Expansion is not even on the agenda for 5 years whilst the TV money will just about double over that period ( again...)

Smith, Grant and Todd are a clown show in comparison...

 

[Tiger5150]

Did you ever think it was weird that Murdoch could come in, with no groundwork, and take full control of the game in a matter of weeks? Murdoch was obviously the final catalyst for SuperLeague, but the ground was set long before he had any interest...

Super League required 3 things to occur; the clubs rebelling, the players jumping ship and a big benefactor funding the breakaway. If just one of these things was missing, SL couldnt have happened.

- The players will always be greedy and self-interested, so anything short of centralised contracts would have been as useless as what we had.Cant fault Arko for this one.
- And, with Packer and Murdoch both wanting the same thing and not interested in sharing, it was difficult to placate ALL benefactors (if we had gone with Murdoch, it would have been a Packers-lead SL). Cant really fault him for this one either.
- The failure was in not securing the clubs, and this absolutely was Arko's fault. Arko was so sure the clubs had no where else to go, he left them free to wander. I understand the year-to-year contracts for the little sydney clubs, but why the expansion clubs we wanted to keep? Why not sign them up to 100 year deals?

Arko brought in these clubs and gave them huge profiles, but gave them the opportunity to jump ship at the first chance. The simple fact that the four '95 expansion club were able to go to SL just shows you how incompetent the ARL admin was...




Id never argue this, they made huge strides with the game...

Their problem was that they never made the hard choices (they expanded but never cut. They were just hoping the clubs would conveniently fall over) and they never secure the territory they already had (they were so focused on expansion, they never stopped to think about the homeland).

I loved Arko's vision for the game, but visions are a dime a doze. When it came to execution, you cannot deny his failures. I dont know if it was incompetence or timidity, but i feel confident in saying he was one of the worst we have had running the game....

1000% wrong. Flat out wrong. I was a voting member of Balmain District Rugby League Club and in 1994 there was a special meeting held where Arthurson spoke to the voting members ( as he did to all of the clubs) and explained to Balmain that the ARL was introducing a set of criteria by which all of the clubs would be assessed. Arthurson (and the ARL ) said if your club didnt meet ALL of these criteria, you would NOT be invited to compete in the ARL. From memory some of the criteria included, $10M annual turnover, 10K average home crowds, certain basic standards for corporate clients etc. It was at this meeting and as a direct consequence of these ARL guidelines and criteria that Balmain changed to the SYdney Tigers, changed their jersey to that god awful thing with a purple stripe and started playing out of Parra Stadium. Canterbury changed to Sydney Bulldogs, Easts changed to Sydney City Roosters. All of these changes were a direct consequence of the changes the ARL were bringing in to modernise and push the comp forward. Two years later News step in and try to take over.

Dont kid yourself that News were after anything other than a media takeover. Balmain (we were told) were supposedly offered more $$$ than any other Sydney team. NOT because we had anything going for us, we didnt, geographically, financially, on field performance, no benefit but at that stage News just needed one more Sydney club.

When the war was over the criteria that was held over the clubs for the combined comp was exactly the same as the criteria that was used by the ARL prior to the SL war but originally it was non negotiable.

 

[Tiger5150]

Did you ever think it was weird that Murdoch could come in, with no groundwork, and take full control of the game in a matter of weeks? Murdoch was obviously the final catalyst for SuperLeague, but the ground was set long before he had any interest...

Super League required 3 things to occur; the clubs rebelling, the players jumping ship and a big benefactor funding the breakaway. If just one of these things was missing, SL couldnt have happened.

Nope, these three things are all the same thing, big benefactor. This is why SL was different to World Series Cricket. In cricket, the ACB was making squillions and the players were making peanuts. In the ARL the clubs were operating on the smell of an oily rag and paying the players a bit more than was financially possible. of course Murdoch could foresee the media revolution that was on its way with Pay TV & Internet and wanted to get in on the ground floor but at the time players were getting everything that was available.

Case in point. The NIGHT that SL broke loose, april fools day, I was at a BBQ at Matt Munro's house (was playing for the Tigers then). I asked him if he was going around for the Tigers the next year and he said he wanted to but his knees were shot and the Tigers knew it. He was grateful what the Tigers were offering him based on his medicals but he thought he could make more in his Property Valuation business. I joked with him that I had just heard on the radio about SL and what Laurie Daley was getting etc. He ended up with a SL contract. At the time Balmain were turning over $8M per year (mostly from a huge leagues club grant). Steve Edmed signed a SL contract for $1.1M.

- And, with Packer and Murdoch both wanting the same thing and not interested in sharing, it was difficult to placate ALL benefactors (if we had gone with Murdoch, it would have been a Packers-lead SL). Cant really fault him for this one either.

Wrong, this is the crux of the whole thing. Packer held the contracts to televise League. He got it for peanuts but i contract is a contract, This is what Murdoch was trying to circumvent.

- The failure was in not securing the clubs, and this absolutely was Arko's fault. Arko was so sure the clubs had no where else to go, he left them free to wander. I understand the year-to-year contracts for the little sydney clubs, but why the expansion clubs we wanted to keep? Why not sign them up to 100 year deals?

Gold Coast? They have been broke three times. Western Reds? 100 year deals?

Their problem was that they never made the hard choices (they expanded but never cut. They were just hoping the clubs would conveniently fall over) and they never secure the territory they already had (they were so focused on expansion, they never stopped to think about the homeland).

nope, 1000% wrong, see my post above. The ARL under Arko had very strong policies in place and were actively trying to reduce the Sydney Clubs.

 

[Stallion]

Nope, these three things are all the same thing, big benefactor. This is why SL was different to World Series Cricket. In cricket, the ACB was making squillions and the players were making peanuts. In the ARL the clubs were operating on the smell of an oily rag and paying the players a bit more than was financially possible. of course Murdoch could foresee the media revolution that was on its way with Pay TV & Internet and wanted to get in on the ground floor but at the time players were getting everything that was available.

Case in point. The NIGHT that SL broke loose, april fools day, I was at a BBQ at Matt Munro's house (was playing for the Tigers then). I asked him if he was going around for the Tigers the next year and he said he wanted to but his knees were shot and the Tigers knew it. He was grateful what the Tigers were offering him based on his medicals but he thought he could make more in his Property Valuation business. I joked with him that I had just heard on the radio about SL and what Laurie Daley was getting etc. He ended up with a SL contract. At the time Balmain were turning over $8M per year (mostly from a huge leagues club grant). Steve Edmed signed a SL contract for $1.1M.



Wrong, this is the crux of the whole thing. Packer held the contracts to televise League. He got it for peanuts but i contract is a contract, This is what Murdoch was trying to circumvent.




Gold Coast? They have been broke three times. Western Reds? 100 year deals?



nope, 1000% wrong, see my post above. The ARL under Arko had very strong policies in place and were actively trying to reduce the Sydney Clubs.

And that was a mistake! The Sydney clubs are an asset not a liability. They give the code credibility through durability. This line of thinking was destructive not productive. The AFL are well aware of the market popularity of their ten Melbourne based clubs. SYDNEY with a million more people and geographic issues is not so well endowed for rugby league due to what has happened over recent decades.

 

[ed-grimley]

Who should be running the game - League men or bureaucrats?

 

[Tiger5150]

Yep.. gotta agree that Arko and Quayle had some vision and looked to expand and put away a few quid when the game was being run on the smell of an oily rag,,,

The last couple of blokes running the show are chewing through hundreds of millions a year yet the game is broke to the extent of having to go to the banks for loans to continue cash flow..,

Expansion is not even on the agenda for 5 years whilst the TV money will just about double over that period ( again...)

Smith, Grant and Todd are a clown show in comparison...

And that was a mistake! The Sydney clubs are an asset not a liability. They give the code credibility through durability. This line of thinking was destructive not productive. The AFL are well aware of the market popularity of their ten Melbourne based clubs. SYDNEY with a million more people and geographic issues is not so well endowed for rugby league due to what has happened over recent decades.

Tell that to fans of South Melbourne or Fitzroy. As painful as it is as an old Tigers fan, the Sydney clubs and definitely Balmain, needed a shake up. They wrere very much an old fashioned model, basically deriving income from the Leagues clubs (with reducing income) and effectively chook raffles. The shake up was needed and the ARL were on to it. It was not a level playing field obviously and still isnt but changes were required and made by most Sydney Clubs.

It has always bugged me that all of the Sydney clubs with the exception of Souths at this time made SIGNIFICANT changes trying to modernise their organisations and make them work. Souths didnt, got kicked forced back in and then went broke anyway requiring selling off to Rusty.

 

[Cherry_poppins]

Man, way to clutch at straws. Losing 3 out of 4 isnt that much better. And I said they were "able to", i didnt say "they did". (and, for the record, the reason the Crushers didnt jump wasnt ARL brilliance, they just werent wanted by SL)...

You preference for growth is an odd one. Is it better to bring in a new NRL team and have them jump ship to Union after a few year or just avoid the expansion all together.

Im not defending the current mob, but it doesnt make the ARL people any less shit at their jobs....



Why were they ever able to make the decision? Why did the fate of the league depend on the loyalty of the Clubs?

The answer is pretty simple: Because the ARL was too incompetent to secure the good clubs and take the option off the table.

Also known as the ARL didn't restrain trade

 

[Stallion]

Tell that to fans of South Melbourne or Fitzroy. As painful as it is as an old Tigers fan, the Sydney clubs and definitely Balmain, needed a shake up. They wrere very much an old fashioned model, basically deriving income from the Leagues clubs (with reducing income) and effectively chook raffles. The shake up was needed and the ARL were on to it. It was not a level playing field obviously and still isnt but changes were required and made by most Sydney Clubs.

It has always bugged me that all of the Sydney clubs with the exception of Souths at this time made SIGNIFICANT changes trying to modernise their organisations and make them work. Souths didnt, got kicked forced back in and then went broke anyway requiring selling off to Rusty.

Dissagree champ! Some shedding occured in the Sydney clubs but what happened courtesy of superleague was over the top and unnecessary. The game has lost alot of relevance in Australias largest city. The AFL are now aware of how significant this historical and rivalry blazened culture is to the wholistic regard of a code. This is what the "reduce rugby league footprint philosophy"is not taking into account. This is weakening the code in Sydney and elsewhere as these longstanding and popular clubs are the game's tv era footprint and are therefore very influential in the culture of rugby league everywhere in Australia.

 

[Stormwarrior82]

Four 1995 expansion clubs didn't go to SL. Credibility fail.

The reality is his admin brought in these clubs.

What the f**k have the muppets running the game since then done? The current mob of tards have a billion dollars and still can't grow the sport.

Arko isn’t as great as everyone craps on.
The current muppets haven’t had anyone takeover the comp.

He expanded the comp due to necessity. He could see the writing on the wall. Already he had plenty of qld players in the nswrl comp and could see plenty more players not getting a chance in qrl. The origin series was going gang busters. If he had the guts to expand earlier super league wouldn’t of happened because the need for it wouldn’t of been there.

Any code able to expand and increase there comp by 7 teams in 8yrs (88-95) must of realized at some point they are neglecting a area in our sport. Now kudos for Kenny boy for realising that. Probably more a gallop stuff up but arko and gallop both allowed clubs free reign and didn’t set benchmarks,kpi or policies for clubs. membership was non-existent.

I always felt that arko had nswrl at heart and expanded to try and save his skin and look progressive. Ultimately like you put it, just like the four teams, his admin also brought about super league. If he had good negotiation skills and not completely dismiss the news Corp threat and reach a middle ground we could already of had the league we wanted and not whinge about in this very forum. He even stuffed up the re-unification and kept his nsw club mates happy.

Still think he is a Great leader?

 

[BuffaloRules]

Once again- Packer had the exclusive rights to FTA and Pay TV signed up and was not going to place nice to benefit Rupert Murdoch... Arthurson and Quayle asked him to and got laughed out of his office...it's ridiculous so say that RL dismissed Rupert Murdoch..they were definitely interested in taking Murdochs money- why wouldn't they be?.

Now Packer acquired those exclusive rights because a few years earlier the FTA provider for RL - Ten, went belly up mid contract...Seven weren't interested in RL at the time so Packer was the only bidder in town for RL and he could ask for what he wanted and had the RL admin over a barrel..

The whole SL debacle was about controlling Pay TV... RL just the unwitting pawn that Murdoch chose to bludgeon people to pay to watch TV
.

I think he has clearly demonstrated in the 20 years since the SL war has been over that he doesn't give a flying about the game and probably wishes for its demise...


.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

Arko isn’t as great as everyone craps on.
The current muppets haven’t had anyone takeover the comp.

He expanded the comp due to necessity. He could see the writing on the wall. Already he had plenty of qld players in the nswrl comp and could see plenty more players not getting a chance in qrl. The origin series was going gang busters. If he had the guts to expand earlier super league wouldn’t of happened because the need for it wouldn’t of been there.

Any code able to expand and increase there comp by 7 teams in 8yrs (88-95) must of realized at some point they are neglecting a area in our sport. Now kudos for Kenny boy for realising that. Probably more a gallop stuff up but arko and gallop both allowed clubs free reign and didn’t set benchmarks,kpi or policies for clubs. membership was non-existent.

I always felt that arko had nswrl at heart and expanded to try and save his skin and look progressive. Ultimately like you put it, just like the four teams, his admin also brought about super league. If he had good negotiation skills and not completely dismiss the news Corp threat and reach a middle ground we could already of had the league we wanted and not whinge about in this very forum. He even stuffed up the re-unification and kept his nsw club mates happy.

Still think he is a Great leader?

Nah. Your dribble completely changed my mind. Even the shit that isn't true.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Losing a great club as a stand alone in Balmain is a huge tragedy to the game. Could you imagine AFL booting Richmond it just wouldn't happen.

 

[Stallion]

Losing a great club as a stand alone in Balmain is a huge tragedy to the game. Could you imagine AFL booting Richmond it just wouldn't happen.

Absolutely! The iconic clubs are the living treasures of the code. They must and should be respected. This is where the NRL are suffering with losing longstanding and traditional supporter bases both in that area and around Australia.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Have to agree. Given the money and professionalism in the game today there is no reason why Balmain could not have been a powerhouse with their tradition and support. Just as the Rabbits have done.

 

[Stallion]

Have to agree. Given the money and professionalism in the game today there is no reason why Balmain could not have been a powerhouse with their tradition and support. Just as the Rabbits have done.

I've always figured that to bring back some iconic relevance that ideally the West Tigers be named the Balmain Campbeltown Tigers and Wests Magpies be given life as an expansion team namely the West Coast Magpies? By doing this the game still has visible links with traditional fan bases and gains growth/expansion areas. I'm pretty sure disgruntled Balmain Tigers and West Magpie fans would like the outcome? I doubt they were ever quizzed about this possible peace meal scenario?

 

[Tiger5150]

Un

Have to agree. Given the money and professionalism in the game today there is no reason why Balmain could not have been a powerhouse with their tradition and support. Just as the Rabbits have done.

I was born in Balmain and love the club, but unfortunately you are wrong. There was no way Balmain were going to be able to survive, not enough financial strength, corporate support etc. Same for Wests at the time. for about 10 years it required everything that Balmain & Wests could put in to scrape by. In recent years (thanks to Benny Elias and a backflip by the State Govt) Balmain Leagues have fallen on hard times and Wests Ashfield are carrying the can but by now the WT are a strong enough entity to survive.

Dont kid yourself re Rabbitohs. They did nothing when the other clubs had to completely restructure to survive. They fought a good fight and won reintroduction into the comp. Then they tried out their "lets not change anything and rely on tradition and support model". Do you remember how that went? They went broke and had to sell out to Rusty & HAC. Tradition and support got them nowhere.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Un


I was born in Balmain and love the club, but unfortunately you are wrong. There was no way Balmain were going to be able to survive, not enough financial strength, corporate support etc. Same for Wests at the time. for about 10 years it required everything that Balmain & Wests could put in to scrape by. In recent years (thanks to Benny Elias and a backflip by the State Govt) Balmain Leagues have fallen on hard times and Wests Ashfield are carrying the can but by now the WT are a strong enough entity to survive.

Dont kid yourself re Rabbitohs. They did nothing when the other clubs had to completely restructure to survive. They fought a good fight and won reintroduction into the comp. Then they tried out their "lets not change anything and rely on tradition and support model". Do you remember how that went? They went broke and had to sell out to Rusty & HAC. Tradition and support got them nowhere.

Yes at the time of the SL war all clubs were struggling but what I am saying is if the club had rode out that period they would have had a more professional management, looked to other forms of revenue (eg. as Cronulla and Manly have done) also the league today gives grants of 8-9 million. Look at the recent history of Wests in the early 80's they were gone, 10 years later they were strong again. They were also on their knees in the late 90's but have grown very powerful leagues clubs today.

Even Cronulla, they have always struggled financially, they were on their knees in 198, today they are on the verge of becoming a powerhouse through good management.

All the ARL clubs were forced down a certain path in the interests of News Ltd and not the game.

Take the AFL alot of their clubs were on the verge of collapse yet they stuck at it and today most are very successful. The Western Bulldogs for instance have always struggled and were on the verge of merging with Fitzroy yet they resisted and last week posted another profit. Have plenty of members excellent facilities and won a much celebrated premiership last year. Same can be said for Collingwood, Hawthorn, Melbourne even Sydney and Brisbane.

Things change....and rugby league is more professional today and has money.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Maybe you should know the history of the sport before trying to rewrite it. Correcting stupid people's blatant bulllshit is not clutching at straws. For the record you don't know what the f**k you're talking about.

You keep wanking on about the ARL not "securing" clubs as if any administration ever can. They made them sign agreements to stay with the ARL and it was deemed illegal. If NRL clubs wanted to set up their own league again and had the funding to do it there would be nothing any admin could legally do to stop it. The "fate of the league" still relies on the loyalty of the clubs you clown and it always will.

And suggesting an expansion club would switch to union after a few years is just pure speculation. When you speculate about something potentially happening in the future that has never happened at all YOU are the one clutching at straws. Arguing a governing body is better than one that expanded the game because it hasn't expanded because a new club would go to union is one of the most fanciful and irrelevant lines of argument ever.

But this is from the tosser who wants to change the name of the sport so I shouldn't be surprised.

Also known as the ARL didn't restrain trade

Ahhh, i think i see the problem...

Youve cofused the Terry Hill-Draft court case with the SL court case. The draft was the thing deemed "restraint of trade" and therefore illegal, the SL contracts werent fundamentally illegal, just the conditions they were signed under.

ARL brought in the clubs and said "sign now or you are out of our comp" (ever the Broncos signed on because of that threat). Then they went to the courts and said they werent given enough time to work through the contracts. For this reason, the courts deemed the contracts invalid.

If you really think 5 year contracts are legally invalid, ask yourself: Why does the ARLC still use them?

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

1000% wrong. Flat out wrong. I was a voting member of Balmain District Rugby League Club and in 1994 there was a special meeting held where Arthurson spoke to the voting members ( as he did to all of the clubs) and explained to Balmain that the ARL was introducing a set of criteria by which all of the clubs would be assessed. Arthurson (and the ARL ) said if your club didnt meet ALL of these criteria, you would NOT be invited to compete in the ARL. From memory some of the criteria included, $10M annual turnover, 10K average home crowds, certain basic standards for corporate clients etc. It was at this meeting and as a direct consequence of these ARL guidelines and criteria that Balmain changed to the SYdney Tigers, changed their jersey to that god awful thing with a purple stripe and started playing out of Parra Stadium. Canterbury changed to Sydney Bulldogs, Easts changed to Sydney City Roosters. All of these changes were a direct consequence of the changes the ARL were bringing in to modernise and push the comp forward. Two years later News step in and try to take over.

Dont kid yourself that News were after anything other than a media takeover. Balmain (we were told) were supposedly offered more $$$ than any other Sydney team. NOT because we had anything going for us, we didnt, geographically, financially, on field performance, no benefit but at that stage News just needed one more Sydney club.

When the war was over the criteria that was held over the clubs for the combined comp was exactly the same as the criteria that was used by the ARL prior to the SL war but originally it was non negotiable.

Maybe they would have followed through on the criteria and booted teams, seems more likely they were just hoping teams would fall over for them (like Newtown and Wests in the 80s)...

My criticism is that they went ahead with expansion and only said "maybe were cut some teams". To me, that says they didnt have the stomach for a tough decision.

Its not like they didnt have the opportunity. All they needed to do was create a level above the existing comps (a Super League, if you will) and only invite the teams wanted. 1988 would have been the time to do it, instead of just introducing the Broncos to the NSWRL