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Top 3 is not a tough ask!

Kornstar

Coach
Messages
15,576
I predict we will finish 7th or 8th and get done in a close game first week, with the Storm or Melbourne just doing what they need to beat us, they will only need to be in first gear to beat us, we have absolutely nothing in the mental toughness stakes.

Throwing away both BIG games against Melbourne and Manly can't be good for us, we are fragile enough as it is and i think you will see the toll of the big games we have had to play and failed in over the last 6 weeks will see us lose the last 2 games and limp out as per the norm for Parra....

Hagan must be dirty with the team he has inherited, Friday night was ours and we again proved why we are nowhere near ready to take the title!!!!
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
Eelementary said:
We've gone from a guaranteed (or at the very least, secure) Top 4 berth, to possibly struggling to even make the 8.

Look, my post is pretty accurate alright!!!!! :x :x ;-) ;-)

We are about a 3% chance of coming 8th.

Everyone should just chill out and end this negative sh*t.

Hah, you wonder why our club has a reputation for choking! At Cronulla they say that it is 'in the water', and that when the semis come around you can feel the club get nervous instead of excited. That atmosphere comes from everyone in the club - fans, players, administrators.

Hagan is excited - he knows how you're supposed to feel coming in to big matches. Now everyone should take a leaf out of his book and be f**king positive!!*


* but not overbearing and loud about it, the Footy Gods don't like that.
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
Kornstar said:
I predict we will finish 7th or 8th and get done in a close game first week, with the Storm or Melbourne just doing what they need to beat us, they will only need to be in first gear to beat us, we have absolutely nothing in the mental toughness stakes.

Throwing away both BIG games against Melbourne and Manly can't be good for us, we are fragile enough as it is and i think you will see the toll of the big games we have had to play and failed in over the last 6 weeks will see us lose the last 2 games and limp out as per the norm for Parra....

Hagan must be dirty with the team he has inherited, Friday night was ours and we again proved why we are nowhere near ready to take the title!!!!

Are you serious, or just not trying to jinx us?

I'm absolutely flabbergasted that people think like this.

We are not fragile, we are a team that has been able to raise our game for the bigger matches, and a team that is readying itself for a charge. I've seen and heard nothing from the coach or players that convinces me otherwise.

We might not (and the law of averages says we won't) win the comp, but it certainly won't be because we are not ready for the Finals,or because we 'threw away' big games against Manly and Melbourne (although, how you could call the Melbourne game thrown away is beyond me, we came back from 10 pts behind FFS).
 

CrazyEel

Bench
Messages
3,680
goboggo said:
We are not fragile, we are a team that has been able to raise our game for the bigger matches, and a team that is readying itself for a charge. I've seen and heard nothing from the coach or players that convinces me otherwise.
This year, I totally agree with you there, well said.
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
Right, I'm cross-posting this (from the other 'we can come third' thread :crazy: ), just so you nay-sayers and negative nellies can see just how little chance there is of us coming 8th.

Ok, I thought I'd get completely nerdy and work out the possibilities of where we could finish for each possible Eels result (ie two wins, one win, no wins), then guess the odds for each match, thus coming to a conclusion for the odds of us finishing in each position. (please note - I disregarded For and Against as there would have to be some major changes for it to affect us. Also please note that I started doing this for a bit of fun and then got more serious as I went along (I love maths games, I'm weird I know), so the actual results are probably a little skewed. Even at the start they would have been pretty good guesses though, so the numbers will be fairly accurate. The conclusion is definitely spot on.)


Two wins: Possible finishes 3rd or 4th
Guaranteed 4th. Possibly 3rd if results go our way (Storm beat Dogs then Dogs beat Cows)

ODDS FOR TWO WINS:
possibility of 3rd - 27%
possibility of 4th - 73%


One win: Possible finishes 4th - 6th
If results went against us (meaning Warriors win both games (Manly & Penrith) and Canterbury beat either Storm or Cows or both) we'd drop to 6th.
If results go our way (Warriors lose at least one and Dogs lose to both Cows and Storm) we come 4th still - possible!
If results partially go our way (Warriors lose at least one and Dogs win at least one OR one of them wins both and the other loses both) we come 5th - probable.

ODDS FOR ONE WIN:
4th - 20%
5th - 64%
6th - 16%


No wins: Possible finishes 5th - 8th
Our place if we lose both is totally dependent on how many of these criteria occur:
#1 - Broncos losing to Canberra before they beat us
#2 - Warriors losing both games (Manly and Penrith)
#3 - Rabbits beating Wests but then losing to Roosters

It would take a minor miracle but if all three of these criteria are met we would still come 5th!
We would come 6th if two of the criteria are met.
We would come 7th if one of the criteria are met.
We would come 8th if none of the criteria are met.

ODDS FOR NO WINS:
5th - 2%
6th - 17%
7th - 44%
8th - 37%

In other words, two losses and we are a 81% chance of being involved in a sudden death away from home finals game in the first week.


FINAL ODDS:
3rd - 14%
4th - 46%
5th - 25%
6th - 8%
7th - 4%
8 - 3%



CONCLUSION:
I have analysed this data and discovered that for the Eels to have the best chance of winning the comp they should try and win their next two games by as many points as possible.

They should also disregard any talk of future possibilities and take it one game at a time. :cool:

So, as you can see, there is nearly 5 times more chance that we will come third than 8th, and twice as much chance we will come 3rd than 7th or 8th combined.

There is an 85% chance we will come 5th or above, and only a 7% chance we will be 7th or 8th.

Get over your loser attitudes.
 

The Engineers Room

First Grade
Messages
8,945
goboggo said:
Only with a big turnaround in For and Against. Not gonna happen.

If we get lose by 12 both times the Tigers only have to beat souths by about 8.

Still a chance. And how did you work out the odds?
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
Natalie's Daddy said:
If we get lose by 12 both times the Tigers only have to beat souths by about 8.

Still a chance.
ok, if we lose both game by a total of 24, then the tigers have to win both by a total of 24 to jump us.

However, the Rabbits would then have to beat the Roosters by a margin that jumps us as well. Given that they would have lost to the Tigers, it would be a remarkable sequence of events, given that they are currently 56 points behind us. They would need to lose by less than us this week, and then hope to win by about 30-odd and hope the Broncs win easily.

EDIT: Or the Rabbits can beat the Tigers, and then the Tigers hope to thrash the Knights (not beyond possibility), and us to take a nosedive in the For and Against as well.

It's not impossible (I actually think the one I just thought of - the Tigers losing then thrashing the Knights - is more likely) but, in all seriousness, the chances of that happening are so minute that they would round down to 0%. Likewise, the chance of all the things occuring that would mean we jump the Doggies on percentage but not on points is minute too. So not worth the hassle to consider really.

Besides, these outcomes are too hard for me to work out the percentages for!! :sto:



And how did you work out the odds?
Do you really want to know?

Ok, boring maths exlanation inside quote:

I approximated the odds for the games from having watched the TAB odds on NRL on Fox over last few weeks. I also took into account the idea that some teams are backed more heavily than others, and that sometimes the odds aren't always an exact representation of the chances of one team winning. I tried to approximate how often a team would beat another team as well and compare that to the odds - mainly using the percentage of people who tip teams on Oztips as compared to the odds on offer from the TAB, and how correct they have been in the last few weeks.

The only bias you might find is that I had trouble trying to work out the percentages for us to beat the Broncs or Dragons. I think in the end I came up with us beating the Drags 72% of the time and the Broncs 60-something. Some might say that is lenient, others harsh. I think if you look at it we would beat the Drags 7 out of 10, and probably the Broncs too, given their team and the home ground.

Anyway, I got to the figures using the method I explained above. Yeah it was an approximation that could have been out (and I stated in the original post that towards the end I was more thorough too) but the minute innacuraccies of one match don't really change the percentages that much anyway once you get to the end of all the figuring, unless your approximations are waaaay out.

So, once I had the figures for each match, I then did some tree diagrams to work out the percentages of each outcome.

Example: For the Dogs outcomes it was a tree diagram that started with Dogs Win or Dogs Loss against Melbourne, and then branched out from both those with Dogs lose and Dogs win v Cowboys. No I did not take into account draws :p .

So, for the Dogs there were 4 tree diagram outcomes :

W v Melb and W v Cows
W v Melb and L v Cows
L v Melb and W v Cows
L v Melb and L v Cows

All these outcomes had different percentages of occuring according to the percentages of each individual game.

Of course these tree diagrams needed to be worked out for every team and/or every scenario. That meant working out exactly where we would finish given certain outcomes. So, using the Ladder Predictor i went through all possible outcomes, and where that would leave us in the table (hence the confusing 'criteria' for us if we lose both. Trust me that is right, I went over it and they are the criteria that affect us).

Depending on what i was trying to figure out I might take one of the results from a tree diagram, or I might take more than one.

eg continuing with the Dogs example, for us to come third there is only one possible scenario - It has to be the Dogs results = L v Melb and W v Cows (of course mutliplied by the chances of us winning both our games, which came from a tree diagram of its own).

But when I needed to know the possibility of the Dogs winning any one game (which was needed in the case of us only winning one) there are two results possible from that tree diagram - W v Melb and L v Cows, or L v Melb and W v Cows. That's why the tree diagrams are important - even though they might not be needed in some instances (I could easily work out the Dogs results without a tree diagram) once you get on to more involved problems (eg Warriors results and Dogs results combined) they allow you to ensure that you don't miss anything.

Once I had worked out what needed to eventuate for certain outcomes to occur it was really just a matter of creating the necessary tree diagrams to work out the chances of each outcome occuring. I then went back and double-checked the figures to ensure that all tree diagram results were accounted for properly and that no data was missing or unaccounted for.

I am open to suggestions to improvements. That doesn't mean I'll go through it all again!! (though if you make a suggestion my compulsion for maths will probably have me doing it)

It's not EXACT, but it's a pretty good indication. I would certainly bank on us finishing 4th or 5th. But we already knew that - this was just a way to confirm how unlikely a 7th or 8th finish is, as I saw people that were concerned we'd miss the 8 etc etc.

Anyway, like all stats they should be taken with a grain of salt, but what started out as a bit of fun for me became a way to put an end to needless and incorrect speculation. It is more likely for us to finish 3rd than below 6th. People should chill out - the laws of probability tell us so!

Of course I get it, I know people will be pessimistic no matter what the probability (though I don't know why, hoping and believing you'll win is half the fun), but as a maths person these results somehow comfort me.
 

Kornstar

Coach
Messages
15,576
goboggo said:
Right, I'm cross-posting this (from the other 'we can come third' thread :crazy: ), just so you nay-sayers and negative nellies can see just how little chance there is of us coming 8th.



So, as you can see, there is nearly 5 times more chance that we will come third than 8th, and twice as much chance we will come 3rd than 7th or 8th combined.

There is an 85% chance we will come 5th or above, and only a 7% chance we will be 7th or 8th.

Get over your loser attitudes.

Being negative works for me, i was positive as hell for the Sharks game and look where that got me, i even said that i thought we had a good shot at taking down Melbourne and what do they deliver? NOTHING, the usual crap performance that we have come to expect when it matters!!!

Negativity works for me, if we win, then i am happy, if we lose, i expect it anyway
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
Kornstar said:
Being negative works for me, i was positive as hell for the Sharks game and look where that got me, i even said that i thought we had a good shot at taking down Melbourne and what do they deliver? NOTHING, the usual crap performance that we have come to expect when it matters!!!

Negativity works for me, if we win, then i am happy, if we lose, i expect it anyway

Fair enough. I just re-read my post - the 'loser attitudes' bit I should have finished with a smiley of some kind. I understand that people prefer not to get too carried away with thinking we'll win.

I just think at times people are be too down on the team with their predictions and summaries. For example, we were very good against Melbourne.
 

Eelementary

Post Whore
Messages
56,974
goboggo said:
Look, my post is pretty accurate alright!!!!! :x :x ;-) ;-)

We are about a 3% chance of coming 8th.

Everyone should just chill out and end this negative sh*t.

Hah, you wonder why our club has a reputation for choking! At Cronulla they say that it is 'in the water', and that when the semis come around you can feel the club get nervous instead of excited. That atmosphere comes from everyone in the club - fans, players, administrators.

Hagan is excited - he knows how you're supposed to feel coming in to big matches. Now everyone should take a leaf out of his book and be f**king positive!!*


* but not overbearing and loud about it, the Footy Gods don't like that.

If optimism works for you, then so be it.

But I know all too well just how the Eels fare in the semis. Not holding my breath.
 

Eelectrica

Referee
Messages
21,134
Eelementary said:
If optimism works for you, then so be it.

But I know all too well just how the Eels fare in the semis. Not holding my breath.
Given how strongly Melbourne and Manly have performed, I'm not too phased with how we do in this finals campaign. As long as we go down fighting it's valuable experience for Inu and Hayne for next year.

I think next year we can give the comp a real shake.
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
Natalie's Daddy said:
I can understand your assessment but the likelihood of victory based on approximations due to recent TAB odds is a long bow.

That's why I factored in the other variables. The TAB odds were a starting point. Besides, they pay the TAB guys big dollars to know how to calculate this stuff (I'm talking before the punters start to drop money in and affect the odds). And even they use their own judgement at times.

Anyway, I said it was an approximation. It's not like I sat up all night going over the millions of variables that decide a game - otherwise I'd be the one calculating footyTAB starts!:)

And, as I said, due to the complex nature of the situation, once you have worked out the possible outcomes the approximation of the individual game odds doesn't affect it too much, as long as you are close in your guesses. The variables for one outcome get watered down by the possibility of another outcome. It's only if you compound an error by making another error that magnifies it, and then another, that you are in trouble. Even then it would probably only change it by a few percent.

I'm confident it's pretty close. Close enough for me to bet on it. You wanna back against me? I'm more than willing to bet we come 4th or 5th!:D
 

The Engineers Room

First Grade
Messages
8,945
I will take a bet but you only get one or the other, either 4th or 5th.

My point is that the odds are effected by current form, home ground advantage, the differing tactics of the teams and some other factors. The TAB tends to go on mostly current form and form can be very fickle.
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
:) I'm not really into betting, I was just having some fun - backing my calculations. Besides, according to my calculations, none of the results are 50%, so you'd have to give me odds ;-) :D .

Course they're not exact, and I agree totally with what you are saying. If I went purely off the odds they posted for the Dragons game my calculations would already change, to make 3rd place about 12% likelihood - as the Eels individual game results are obviously the ones that affect the outcomes the most.

Point is, they're not exact, but they do show how unlikely it is that we will come 8th, and - more importantly for the case of the "we can come third" threads, that 3rd is more likely than 7th and 8th.

Anyway, grain of salt.
 

TheParraboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
67,396
4th vs 5th play on the friday night semi dont they?, is gonna be real real tough if....

We play a side who has had 2 extra days rest eg. bulldogs, tigers or cowboys, who all play rd 25 on the friday, warriors play o nthe saturday, one extra day

we play broncos rd 25 on sunday, short turnaround
 

The Engineers Room

First Grade
Messages
8,945
I don't know if it is really more likely to come third. The Bulldogs are a real show this weekend and the Cowboys play the Knights. If we win both games we would have to have the Storm win and the Bulldogs beat the Cowboys. We are not looking that good to win against the Dragons in my estimation of their current form. It will take a big turn around in our attack to win. But a loss on Monday means that we will face a Broncos side trying to force it's way into the finals (assuming they beat the Raiders). They look like getting Hunt back as well. The most likely is if we can win both 4th win 1 lose 1 5th or 6th and lose both 7th or 8th.

But in saying all that I think it was great what you did to work out those odds.
 

goboggo

Juniors
Messages
494
Natalie's Daddy said:
The most likely is if we can win both 4th win 1 lose 1 5th or 6th and lose both 7th or 8th.
Absolutely. Spot on.

As for 3rd being more likely than 7th or 8th, think about it this way -

To come third we have to win both.
To come 7th or 8th we have to lose both.

Now, putting aside all feeling of hope, pessimism, optimism, whatever it is that you feel going in to our games, ask yourself, what is REALLY the most likely?

Is it more likely that we will lose to the Dragons (without Ryles, Hornby etc) and the Broncos (on our home turf and with a host of their players missing), or is it more likely that we will win both matches?

You might say that it is more likely we will win ONE of the games, and that is true, but I am just explaining why it is more likely that we will come third rather than 7th or 8th.

I'd say what I think we'll come, but I'm too superstitious for that (and after I said we should pump the Sharks I'm not predicting anymore), I'd rather just say what the numbers tell me!:)
 

sportsmad

Juniors
Messages
134
goboggo said:
Ok, I thought I'd get completely nerdy and work out the possibilities of where we could finish for each possible Eels result (ie two wins, one win, no wins), then guess the odds for each match, thus coming to a conclusion for the odds of us finishing in each position. (please note - I disregarded For and Against as there would have to be some major changes for it to affect us. Also please note that I started doing this for a bit of fun and then got more serious as I went along (I love maths games, I'm weird I know), so the actual results are probably a little skewed. Even at the start they would have been pretty good guesses though, so the numbers will be fairly accurate. The conclusion is definitely spot on.)


Two wins: Possible finishes 3rd or 4th
Guaranteed 4th. Possibly 3rd if results go our way (Storm beat Dogs then Dogs beat Cows)

ODDS FOR TWO WINS:
possibility of 3rd - 27%
possibility of 4th - 73%


One win: Possible finishes 4th - 6th
If results went against us (meaning Warriors win both games (Manly & Penrith) and Canterbury beat either Storm or Cows or both) we'd drop to 6th.
If results go our way (Warriors lose at least one and Dogs lose to both Cows and Storm) we come 4th still - possible!
If results partially go our way (Warriors lose at least one and Dogs win at least one OR one of them wins both and the other loses both) we come 5th - probable.

ODDS FOR ONE WIN:
4th - 20%
5th - 64%
6th - 16%


No wins: Possible finishes 5th - 8th
Our place if we lose both is totally dependent on how many of these criteria occur:
#1 - Broncos losing to Canberra before they beat us
#2 - Warriors losing both games (Manly and Penrith)
#3 - Rabbits beating Wests but then losing to Roosters

It would take a minor miracle but if all three of these criteria are met we would still come 5th!
We would come 6th if two of the criteria are met.
We would come 7th if one of the criteria are met.
We would come 8th if none of the criteria are met.

ODDS FOR NO WINS:
5th - 2%
6th - 17%
7th - 44%
8th - 37%

In other words, two losses and we are a 81% chance of being involved in a sudden death away from home finals game in the first week.


FINAL ODDS:
3rd - 14%
4th - 46%
5th - 25%
6th - 8%
7th - 4%
8 - 3%


CONCLUSION:
I have analysed this data and discovered that for the Eels to have the best chance of winning the comp they should try and win their next two games by as many points as possible.

They should also disregard any talk of future possibilities and take it one game at a time. :cool:

that's what i said in the 3rd post.......didn't i......man i'm confused
 

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