Tribalism

[Tonearm Terrorwrist]

once you punt most of the sydney teams then it just becomes a game with no passion and it'll turn into just turn up, watch a game, clap for a try, eat a meat pie and go home ... perth v adelaide, gosford vs wellington, brisbane vs melbourne, north queensland vs png ... lol where's the rivalry? where's the connection? where's the history? ... easts have been in the comp from day dot and the dogs from what, 1920 odd or whatever? ... it took until the early 2000s for us two to form any sort of rivalry and they're within a bee's dick of each other in the same city so good luck getting something out of adelaide, perth, central coast, wellington and whoever else

people talking about sydney clubs being bland and killing the game have never been to an easts v souths game, or dogs v parra or dragons v sharks etc...

also funny how alot of these people talking sh*t of rugby league in sydney are from perth, melbourne and queensland ... be thankful you've got a team and shut the f**k up and in some cases be thankful you had a team and have one in the lower grades

 

[charlie]

You're right. The merging process is alot more difficult than simply adding 1+1=2. The psychological hurdle and grievance process must come first. It involves reconciling with one's sense of identity. In an ideal world , a merged club would be like the Brady bunch, but its not. You can't start on clean slate like clubs in the NFL, because the historical links are still there and with that memories and a lot of baggage.

MERGERS WONT WORK THERE NEEDS TO BE 4 NEW CLUBS IN SYDNEY. All the existing clubs will go back to the origional Sydney NSWRL comp they were in prior to 1988. Their they can maintain all their traditions and tribalisms while the code moves on.

 

[innsaneink]

Took me three years to 'accept' the Wests/Balmain merge.

At first i didnt think I would at all, was determined not to, though I couldnt avoid results in the media, I HAD to check them.
Went to my first and only game in WTs 2nd year, 2001...a few more in 02, 3 I think, about 6 in '03...and from 2004 onwards as much as i can attend.
Funny thing though is im getting jack of all the crap that comes with NRL these days, the vid ref, the media agendas, the corporate crap at games and am finding the State Cup game day experience a lot more satisfying - pure footy and footy people without all the crappola of NRL...whats old is new again.

 

[Cloud9]

once you punt most of the sydney teams then it just becomes a game with no passion and it'll turn into just turn up, watch a game, clap for a try, eat a meat pie and go home ... perth v adelaide, gosford vs wellington, brisbane vs melbourne, north queensland vs png ... lol where's the rivalry? where's the connection? where's the history? ... easts have been in the comp from day dot and the dogs from what, 1920 odd or whatever? ... it took until the early 2000s for us two to form any sort of rivalry and they're within a bee's dick of each other in the same city so good luck getting something out of adelaide, perth, central coast, wellington and whoever else

people talking about sydney clubs being bland and killing the game have never been to an easts v souths game, or dogs v parra or dragons v sharks etc...

also funny how alot of these people talking sh*t of rugby league in sydney are from perth, melbourne and queensland ... be thankful you've got a team and shut the f**k up and in some cases be thankful you had a team and have one in the lower grades

Some of these rivalries are more like a backyard spat than anything with passion.
And it depends on the teams reputation in recent seasons, not the past 50 years. I'd rather watch a Melbourne v Manly match up than say Dogs v Parra

 

[Loudstrat]

It is a NIMBY type problem.

Logic suggests that for the game to grow and become a truly national sport like cricket there are too many NSW teams.

However nobody is willing to give up thier team.

Stupid thought. NRL is more of a national code than AFL - which is only played in 5 locations and never more than 20 mins from the coast.

Numbnuts, the population of Australia is not evenly spread. The code needs to serve the people, not the acerage.

That is the point I'm trying to make. If Sydney had say 4 teams and they were run as well as Brisbane they would all be supper clubs like Brisbane. Add Newcastle,Townsville,Gold Coast,Canberra, Melbourne, New Zealand and new clubs from Qld, Perth and possibly Darwin you will have a true national comp. Because of the larger national exposure clubs will attract more sponsorship income and at the same time increase the number of supperters.

This is an example of how stupid some people are. Charlie wants to punt 5 clubs from Sydney, leaving an average of 1 million people per club, and introduce Darwin, which has 15% of Cronulla's local population?

MERGERS WONT WORK THERE NEEDS TO BE 4 NEW CLUBS IN SYDNEY. All the existing clubs will go back to the origional Sydney NSWRL comp they were in prior to 1988. Their they can maintain all their traditions and tribalisms while the code moves on.

ASnd the code moves on to oblivion. Who would support any of the 4 new clubs and see their own team punted? And who would finance it? The LEagues Clubs you just punted? FFS.

Some of these rivalries are more like a backyard spat than anything with passion.
And it depends on the teams reputation in recent seasons, not the past 50 years. I'd rather watch a Melbourne v Manly match up than say Dogs v Parra

Parra v Canterbury
Parra v Manly
Saints v Cronulla
Wests v Souths
And even the grossly overstated Souths v Easts?

No passion?

You aint on another cloud, you are on another friggin planet.

Can't wait for the mega-rivalry between Darwin and Birdsville in your stupid comp!

 

[Perth Red]

Unfortunately the crowd numbers at these so called passion filled games don't bear testament to how much the tribal people of Sydney suburbs love them.

Get pulling 20,000 punters with an income of $15mill+ and no one will be calling for anyones head.

Out of the current out of Sydney teams with low crowds I can see Melbourne and NZ significantly improving their bums on seats over the next decade. Canberra I can't see massive increases. Out of Sydney clubs I can see Sth's, Roosters, Bulldogs and Wests topping the 20,000 in years to come. Penrith, Manly, Cronulla and St's I can't see. Parra depends on someone running the club with a clue.

 

[In-goal]

The salary cap is certainly something the NRL could use to liquidate teams, I propose that the cap be raised to $5m for season 2010 and then raised to $6m for 2011. This would put pressure back on the home Union as well as those Sydney clubs that can't cut it.

I beleive it would be the end of the Raiders, therefore the game needs to realise what it really wants.

The constant rule changes in the NRL are doing the game more harm than good, especially this deffensive rubbish we are expected to watch week in week out. I don't want to see SOO every week as the series is the same defensive crap every year.

I want open attacking Rugby and if the NRL can't give me that at least I'll up my attendance at park football, the top flight competition isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

 

[Knightmare]

Do you think the amount of teams in Sydney whoring themselves to ANZ could be a factor? Outside of rep games or finals matches, it's hard to develop any atmosphere in the place, and there is no affinity to it from the fans- it's the home ground you have when you don't really have a home ground.

Also remember that when the Broncos played at ANZ (QE2) Stadium, in the last few years of their tenure there they were only averaging 20k. That was just over 5 years ago. I don't recall the people of Brisbane copping flack from anybody, and this was at a time when the Knights were closer to the Broncos geographically than the nearest Qld team!

 

[krudmonk]

The salary cap is certainly something the NRL could use to liquidate teams, I propose that the cap be raised to $5m for season 2010 and then raised to $6m for 2011. This would put pressure back on the home Union as well as those Sydney clubs that can't cut it.

You'd just create a bottleneck. Unlike AFL in Melbourne, there aren't many true giants or minnows in Sydney RL.

 

[_Johnsy]

That just shows you're all fans of different teams, dullard. It says nothing about where the teams are from and what they represent. When the Bunnies and Dogs play at ANZ, who is home? Whose turf is being defended? That part of it is washed away. Read a little deeper next time.

Also, your example of two teams from different states is total crap in regards to this topic.

You have two ways to look at this topic, read deeply or see it at face value, either way my point relates to tribalism in both senses.

An important game, so our supporters travelled a great distance to see out boys "go to war". The supporters wanted them to see they were not alone, I am sure this represents tribalism in all facets.

:alcho: I'm impressed Johnsy, I thought you may not have full memory of the eveinng.

I was squinting at the end of the night, afterall I had to make sure I knew who I was speaking with. Are you still draped in your cape, true superhero stuff.

 

[Loudstrat]

Unfortunately the crowd numbers at these so called passion filled games don't bear testament to how much the tribal people of Sydney suburbs love them.

You forget the crowd at the Eels v Dogs semi last year.

If you start ignoring the passion that makes League tick, and only follow the balance sheet, you will remove the very reason you have a balance sheet in the first place!

Get pulling 20,000 punters with an income of $15mill+ and no one will be calling for anyones head.

Out of the current out of Sydney teams with low crowds I can see Melbourne and NZ significantly improving their bums on seats over the next decade.

Based on what? Melbourne's new stadium will improve crowds somewhat, but with one of the classig sides of all time, and playing as premiers heading for a minor premiership, their home crowds were worse than everyone's except Cronulla. Souths and Penrith shat on melbourne's crowds this year.

Canberra I can't see massive increases.

And here is the danger of punting clubs purely because of crowds. Canberra, in a great year with heaps of great footy, pulled the third lowest crowds, again less than Souths, Penrith and Canterbury. YEt we are all quick to punt the lesser Sydney clubs, but why not Canberra?

Canberra should never be punted. So why punt better performing clubs elsewhere?

Out of Sydney clubs I can see Sth's, Roosters, Bulldogs and Wests topping the 20,000 in years to come. Penrith, Manly, Cronulla and St's I can't see. Parra depends on someone running the club with a clue.

Shows you have no clue. The Roosters will never top 20k average at home. Away, in their prime years, they were the biggest drawers - thius is their value to the comp.

Souths - possibly, but they have to become a top 4 club, and that's a remote opne, sadly.

Manly and Cronulla never will. Yet Manly's crowds in the last 3-4 years have been their best ever. Why the hell are they even mentioned?

Penrith averaged over 20k in 2004.

St George feature in just about every grand final crowd record since 1943. The biggest crowd between the 78k for the 65gf and the 104k for the 99gf was 65k for the 77gf - with St George playing. They set the record about 3 times between 56 and the big 65 crowd.

And the sell out prelim final in 95 had St George.

Parra's crowds don't depend in Fitzy, I'm afraid. In fact, under Fitzy, they were the first Sydney team to average over 20k in a season - in 1986.

The salary cap is certainly something the NRL could use to liquidate teams, I propose that the cap be raised to $5m for season 2010 and then raised to $6m for 2011. This would put pressure back on the home Union as well as those Sydney clubs that can't cut it.

I beleive it would be the end of the Raiders, therefore the game needs to realise what it really wants.

Exactly! This idiotic culling of Sydney clubs means other non Sydney clubs will die also.

 

[Perth Red]

You forget the crowd at the Eels v Dogs semi last year.

It was a semi, so it should have drawn a decent crowd!

If you start ignoring the passion that makes League tick, and only follow the balance sheet, you will remove the very reason you have a balance sheet in the first place!

No arguments that fans have alot of passion for their own teams (well whilst they are winning anyway!), I am questioning if the passion of tribalism adds significantly to the crowd size in Sydney.

I can't find any stats to suggest one way or the other. Ie do St George average a much greater gate when they play Cronulla and Sth's as opposed to Melbourne and Brisbane?

Based on what? Melbourne's new stadium will improve crowds somewhat, but with one of the classig sides of all time, and playing as premiers heading for a minor premiership, their home crowds were worse than everyone's except Cronulla. Souths and Penrith shat on melbourne's crowds this year.

Melbourne 12,474
Penrith 10,899

yeh I see your point, and I have no clue!!

Once NRL gets on live FTA in Vic and they have a new stadium I expect the Storm's crowds to improve dramatically.

And here is the danger of punting clubs purely because of crowds. Canberra, in a great year with heaps of great footy, pulled the third lowest crowds, again less than Souths, Penrith and Canterbury. YEt we are all quick to punt the lesser Sydney clubs, but why not Canberra?

Canberra should never be punted. So why punt better performing clubs elsewhere?

Shows you have no clue. The Roosters will never top 20k average at home. Away, in their prime years, they were the biggest drawers - thius is their value to the comp.
2003-2005 16-17,500 suggests that the fan base is there and with better membership and improved attempts to get bums on seats I wouldn't say they will NEVER top 20,000.

Souths - possibly, but they have to become a top 4 club, and that's a remote opne, sadly.

Manly and Cronulla never will. Yet Manly's crowds in the last 3-4 years have been their best ever. Why the hell are they even mentioned?

Penrith averaged over 20k in 2004.

Nope, 17,500 at home, In the last 10 years they have only had two decent seasons of crowds, and the last few have been dropping like the Cougars knickers

St George feature in just about every grand final crowd record since 1943. The biggest crowd between the 78k for the 65gf and the 104k for the 99gf was 65k for the 77gf - with St George playing. They set the record about 3 times between 56 and the big 65 crowd.

And the sell out prelim final in 95 had St George.

Geez shame we aren't living 30 years ago! There has been nothing in the last 10 years to show they are remotely close to getting close to 20,000.

Parra's crowds don't depend in Fitzy, I'm afraid. In fact, under Fitzy, they were the first Sydney team to average over 20k in a season - in 1986.
.

 

[TinghaExpress]

Perth Red in regards to St.George i think you should look at their situation from a Sydney viewpoint ie Kogarah averages (because Wollongong isnt Sydney) before making outlandish comments that we arent getting anywhere close to a 20,000 average....
You dont seem to take into account all the factors when your making such uneducated comments. In the period of 2004-2005 Saints averaged around 15,000 at Kogarah (Syd). However what you fail to realise that in three of those matches the ground capacity hindered our crowd pulling average greatly...
Rd 15 vs Tigers 2004 @ Kogarah - 16,915 (sold out 1hr before kick off leaving 4,000 stranded outside the ground unable to enter)
Rd 20 vs Cronulla 2005 @ Kogarah - 17,113 (sold out by the Thursday before the Sunday arvo kick off)
Rd 24 vs Parra 2005 @ Kogarah - 17,523 (game sold out on the Tuesday before the Sunday game NRL pushed for the match to moved to the SFS which could accomodate for a crowd expected to be between 30,000-35,000)

So before you start jumping to conclusions claiming tribalism doesnt contribute to the crowd size and St.George havent got close to 20,000 average maybe you should take a good look at who St.George's opponents were in those three clashes and which part of Australia they come from....

Oh and in regards to Saints' average well im sure well shut you well and truely up come 2009 with an increased ground capacity of around 23,000-25,000 at Kogarah...

 

[Miller was a legend]

Dragons V Sharks is one of the most awaited clashes by both clubs supporters. The Dragons return to Kogarah is fantastic for their club and adds to the clashes between the two clubs. Our history between the two organisations is the cornerstone to the tribal war when the clubs meet. Sharks V manly is much the same with the mongrels taking both Premiership chances away from us. WE HATE YA'S BOTH..lol

This is the type of feeling that makes league in Sydney and brings the fans. it's not all about winning competitions, ask any long suffering Shark fan! But they are still Sharks fans. I am willing to bet most in this forum feel the same way out their clubs.

 

[greg]

Dragons V Sharks is one of the most awaited clashes by both clubs supporters. The Dragons return to Kogarah is fantastic for their club and adds to the clashes between the two clubs. Our history between the two organisations is the cornerstone to the tribal war when the clubs meet. Sharks V manly is much the same with the mongrels taking both Premiership chances away from us. WE HATE YA'S BOTH..lol

This is the type of feeling that makes league in Sydney and brings the fans. it's not all about winning competitions, ask any long suffering Shark fan! But they are still Sharks fans. I am willing to bet most in this forum feel the same way out their clubs.

Well put Miller. Unfortunately some on this forum from outside Sydney don't (and never will) get it.

 

[Loudstrat]

PR, maybe your crowd source was better than mine - granted if that's the case.

But if you want to can every Sydney club that doesn't average 20k, why the f**k are you not bashing Melbourne, Canberra and NZ?

Why the hell are we extolling the virtues of tribalism and club rivalries with non Sydney league fans? Is this an alien concept to you?

Says a lot, really. How sad.

Gimmee a rivalry with passion anyway, rather than just an entertainment spectacle. Why not just f**k off to the opera, PR?

 

[Cloud9]

PR, maybe your crowd source was better than mine - granted if that's the case.

But if you want to can every Sydney club that doesn't average 20k, why the f**k are you not bashing Melbourne, Canberra and NZ?

Why the hell are we extolling the virtues of tribalism and club rivalries with non Sydney league fans? Is this an alien concept to you?

Says a lot, really. How sad.

Gimmee a rivalry with passion anyway, rather than just an entertainment spectacle. Why not just f**k off to the opera, PR?

To suggest that passion only exists between Sydney clubs is another myth.
Melbourne vs Manly, St George, there's plenty of passion there.

Sydney clubs remind me of the barbarian hordes north of the Rhine river squabbling amongst themselves waiting to be civilised by the Storm , I mean Romans.

 

[Miller was a legend]

Who is suggesting there is no rivalry with non sydney clubs. We hate them! Nothing better then beating them, well except beating StGeorge and Manly. lol Long term rivalry between Sydney clubs is vital to our competition. It is our history our heratige passed down from father to son. Kids at 5 learning to hate those dirty stains or hate us rotten swamp dewlling scum! LOL.

We all call each other names and we love it! It add spice to the rivalry.

 

[Loudstrat]

To suggest that passion only exists between Sydney clubs is another myth.
Melbourne vs Manly, St George, there's plenty of passion there.

Sydney clubs remind me of the barbarian hordes north of the Rhine river squabbling amongst themselves waiting to be civilised by the Storm , I mean Romans.

Sorrry, Clod 9. You linked Sydney with tribalism in post#1 of this thread.

 

[big boppa eel]

we have already merged, maybe other teams could consider the same course of action.

Merge, try takeover.