Tribalism

[Cloud9]

Theres been a lot of debate recently about whether there are too many Sydney teams competing in a limited market. A few posters have suggested that too many Sydney teams are holding back the growth of the game. Traditionalists argue that Sydney teams are the very fabric of the game, steeped in history and tribalism.

However, at what point does this turf war become detrimental to the greater good of the game? Is the idea of traditional rivalries a false notion because relationships ebb and flow, old rivalries die and new ones form.

I believe that tribalism is different to nationalism - which has plagued the sport of soccer in the past and scaring off mainstream support.

I think its an issue that an independent commission can try to resolve. Some rivalries i see as quite entertaining and good for the game (Souths vs Easts) and should be preserved.

Can some of theses existing tribes merge and form an aliiance? Having said that, the South-Eastern furry Chooks sounds appealing.
If these Sydney clubs don't cut the mustard, they should be demoted but not destroyed to preserve what ever tradition they have. The Newtown Jets are still around.

 

[Mr Angry]

It is a NIMBY type problem.

Logic suggests that for the game to grow and become a truly national sport like cricket there are too many NSW teams.

However nobody is willing to give up thier team.

 

[_Johnsy]

we have already merged, maybe other teams could consider the same course of action.

 

[charlie]

Theres been a lot of debate recently about whether there are too many Sydney teams competing in a limited market. A few posters have suggested that too many Sydney teams are holding back the growth of the game. Traditionalists argue that Sydney teams are the very fabric of the game, steeped in history and tribalism.

However, at what point does this turf war become detrimental to the greater good of the game? Is the idea of traditional rivalries a false notion because relationships ebb and flow, old rivalries die and new ones form.

I believe that tribalism is different to nationalism - which has plagued the sport of soccer in the past and scaring off mainstream support.

I think its an issue that an independent commission can try to resolve. Some rivalries i see as quite entertaining and good for the game (Souths vs Easts) and should be preserved.

Can some of theses existing tribes merge and form an aliiance?

first of all great topic.

I am one of those that believe for the game to survive and prosper it will have to walk away from most of its tradition. If the Sydney clubs want to maintain their own identity may i suggest they go back and compete in the local Sydney comp.
For the game to move forward we need at least 10 clubs as strong as Brisbane. There is only a finite amount of sponsorship dollars available in Qld and NSW so we have to expand Nationally to bring more sponsors into play.
We need to do away with the salary cap as it is a nonsense. All it does is reward the poor performers and nobble the strong. Look at Man United they were the richest most powerfull Premier League club in
England. The Premier League had no salary cap so the remaining clubs had to catch up or perrish. Guess what! they caught up.

 

[coach]

It is a NIMBY type problem.

Logic suggests that for the game to grow and become a truly national sport like cricket there are too many NSW teams.

However nobody is willing to give up thier team.

And I can understand why people feel that way. Fans follow rugby league because they have a team to follow. If that team no longer exists then do they still follow the game?

During seasons 2000-2001 my team Souths was not in the competition. But I still followed the NRL. May be not as passionately as if Souths were playing but I still watched games. Not all Souths fans felt the same way I did. Many walked away from the game for those two years and some have not even come back. They felt so let down by the games rulers they just could not bring themselves to follow the game again.

But tribalism does create problems for the game. Some Sydney teams have to go. But how do you get rid of them without sriving away many of the games fans?

I suppose the financial crisis just might end up being the way to solve the problem. I have no doubt that come 2010 that some of the Sydney teams will have gone under.

 

[charlie]

And I can understand why people feel that way. Fans follow rugby league because they have a team to follow. If that team no longer exists then do they still follow the game?

During seasons 2000-2001 my team Souths was not in the competition. But I still followed the NRL. May be not as passionately as if Souths were playing but I still watched games. Not all Souths fans felt the same way I did. Many walked away from the game for those two years and some have not even come back. They felt so let down by the games rulers they just could not bring themselves to follow the game again.

But tribalism does create problems for the game. Some Sydney teams have to go. But how do you get rid of them without sriving away many of the games fans?

I suppose the financial crisis just might end up being the way to solve the problem. I have no doubt that come 2010 that some of the Sydney teams will have gone under.

WELL SAID'
But maybe we will have to risk loosing a few to gain many more supporters nationally

 

[Perth Red]

If we have to lose some then let it be by market forces. Up the cap and set some minimum financial criteria for clubs (ie investment $'s in jnr's etc). This would force the situation and may lead to some mergers or clubs dropping down into the NSW cup. Set the cap at 50% of income, bring in a second Brisbane team to dilute the Broncos wealth and lets see what happens.

re tribalism, do the attendance figures show this? What is a Sydneys club crowd average v other Sydney clubs, compared to against clubs from out of town?

 

[RL1908]

Sydney is a conumdrum - there is no "golden bullet" answer.

Culling Sydney clubs in the belief that the remaining clubs will grow bigger is a falsehood. Where have all the disaffected Bears fans gone? Where have all the fans of Balmain or Wests gone who couldn't stomach the merger? Have they taken up another Sydney club, or no club at all, or given up on RL completely? Pretty clear that culling Sydney clubs is not the answer.

In Brisbane, Newcastle, Auckland, Townsville and Canberra, it wasn't one of the existing clubs that gained entry to the NSWRL/ARL premiership - in every case, the new club came in above all the existing clubs. It was brutal in Brisbane - those existing and time-honoured clubs all lost out - but at least it was fair.

The problem is that if all the current Sydney clubs are replaced by (for example) 4 new Sydney NRL franchises, it is a very big risk for RL to take. I've no doubt that there would be a lot of disaffected fans who would walk away from RL.

 

[Perth Red]

Sydney is a conumdrum - there is no "golden bullet" answer.

Culling Sydney clubs in the belief that the remaining clubs will grow bigger is a falsehood. Where have all the disaffected Bears fans gone? Where have all the fans of Balmain or Wests gone who couldn't stomach the merger? Have they taken up another Sydney club, or no club at all, or given up on RL completely? Pretty clear that culling Sydney clubs is not the answer.

No idea, unfortunately we don't know where the increased crowds for the other teams have come from. Maybe they are ex Bears fans, maybe they are offspring of ex Bears fans or maybe ex Bears fans now go to AFL, who knows?

The problem is that if all the current Sydney clubs are replaced by (for example) 4 new Sydney NRL franchises, it is a very big risk for RL to take. I've no doubt that there would be a lot of disaffected fans who would walk away from RL.

Will never happen. RL is too myopic to take such a radical step. Even in SL they didn't kill the teams and start afresh. I think the reality is we will eventually see the smaller Sydney clubs drop down to a revamped and improved NSW cup with 5 or 6 left in the NRL that are financially, sponsorship and fan base big enough to play with the big boys. More private ownership ( a risk in itself) and one team big city franchises to make up an eventual 14-16 team PNRL. (Pacific National RL)

 

[coach]

If we have to lose some then let it be by market forces. Up the cap and set some minimum financial criteria for clubs (ie investment $'s in jnr's etc). This would force the situation and may lead to some mergers or clubs dropping down into the NSW cup. Set the cap at 50% of income, bring in a second Brisbane team to dilute the Broncos wealth and lets see what happens.

re tribalism, do the attendance figures show this? What is a Sydneys club crowd average v other Sydney clubs, compared to against clubs from out of town?

This is a good question you ask. I don't have figures readily available.

But what I can tell you is that during 2008 we had 43 games where the crowd was less then 10,000. Of those, 8 involved two Sydney teams.

Looking at the highest crowds for 2008 there were 17 games that drew more then 25,000 fans. Only three of those games involved two Sydney teams. But these figure can be misleading because Brisbane get big crowds at Suncorpe and many of Sydney grounds don't have big capacities

 

[Mr Angry]

we have already merged, maybe other teams could consider the same course of action.

Well _Johnsy I would agree.
I do however think the mergers that occured will not very well thought out. It was a time for decisions and they were made.
For example St.George Illawarra
IMHO, St.George and South Sydney was a better option with Cronulla merging with Illawarra. Geographically and socially better aligned.
But Souths wanted no part of it, and it may well be thier death, with Sydney City taking the area.
My team may die too, I will continue to follow league, as it is the game I love.
I can say I started my forum posting all those years ago as I was sick of Fatty saying all league supporters wanted Souths back. I did not and I am a league fan. Not because they are Souths, just because they had already reducued the number of Sydney teams and bringing Souths back was going backwards not forwards.

 

[RL1908]

I think that there are 2 options for Sydney - and I don't think I really like either!

The first (as others have said) is natural attrition - the NRL could raise or eliminate the salary cap, and then only the financially strong would survive. Fans don't march in the streets if their club can't cut it financially - but they do (e.g. Souths) if a club is cut out.

The other is promotion/relegation of Sydney NRL clubs, via the following model.

1. Allocate to Greater Sydney (including Gosford & Illawarra) 5 places in the NRL for 2011 onwards.

2. The highest finishing 5 Sydney clubs from 2010 enter the 2011 NRL.

3. The other Sydney clubs enter a Sydney RL club comp, alongside Norths, Newtown, Central Coast and anyone else who wants to enter a team (eg. a Football/Leagues Club, merger, or a private consortium/franchise).

4. IF a Sydney club comes last in the NRL, they are demoted. The winner of the Sydney RL comp takes their place. If the NRL wooden spooner is NOT a Sydney club, then there is no relegation/promotion.

 

[Perth Red]

If you were doing a radical shake up of Sydney and there was 6 spots available, and you could undo current mergers, what teams would you merge, what teams should drop down to NSW cup and what teams could make it as a stand alone club?

The Wests Tigers merger seems to have worked
St George - Souths
Cronulla -Illawara
Penrith to NSW cup (just not the fanbase)
Bulldogs stand alone (seem to have a strong fanbase and good corporate)
Manly??? In theory they should probably drop but we need a Nth's team so I guess they are in but need a new ground and better finances
Parra? Seem to have too good a ground and finances to drop so i guess they are in
Roosters? Seem to have capacity to have a decent fanbase and decent corporate support. Maybe a merger with Sth's? or stand alone

geez it isn't easy and I can see why the NRL has no idea or plans to go there! Probably best to let market forces deal with it and up the standards to let the strongest survive.

 

[dubby]

The issue IMO is not tribalism, its the clubs not being smart enough or be able to operate at profits that will ensure a healthy viable future.

maybe various clubs have been stuck in the old days with too many old boys running the show. The games reliance on the golden goose aka poker machines has been exposed and a new means of revenue must be found.

That is the issue. Can teams discover a new source of income to keep them afloat? Are there enough smart men out there to run the clubs?

Time will soon tell. We will either see clubs fold due to economic pressure, or relocate or play more games in other venues.

I need to make one point clear; being outside of Sydney does not guarentee success. Melbourne, Canberra, NQ have all had financial problems in the past. Most of these were due to inept management and poor decisions by HQ.

I see the issue as this: are the clubs smart enough to live?

Simply opening a Perth/Adelaide/Wellington/PNG does not mean success unless the front office is intelligent enough to make it work. The GC Titans are an example thus far of how to do it properly.

Interesting times ahead.

 

[Cloud9]

The issue IMO is not tribalism, its the clubs not being smart enough or be able to operate at profits that will ensure a healthy viable future.

maybe various clubs have been stuck in the old days with too many old boys running the show. The games reliance on the golden goose aka poker machines has been exposed and a new means of revenue must be found.

That is the issue. Can teams discover a new source of income to keep them afloat? Are there enough smart men out there to run the clubs?

Time will soon tell. We will either see clubs fold due to economic pressure, or relocate or play more games in other venues.

I need to make one point clear; being outside of Sydney does not guarentee success. Melbourne, Canberra, NQ have all had financial problems in the past. Most of these were due to inept management and poor decisions by HQ.

I see the issue as this: are the clubs smart enough to live?

Simply opening a Perth/Adelaide/Wellington/PNG does not mean success unless the front office is intelligent enough to make it work. The GC Titans are an example thus far of how to do it properly.

Interesting times ahead.

Interesting points you make. I agree that clubs have be financially savvy. Where tribalism comes in is when clubs float the idea of a merger or alliance as a viable business model. Clubs that merge can hypothetically, halve their administration costs and increase their supporter base.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Rather than rationalising the game in Sydney, why can't we grow the game so there is more for everyone? People forget the game goes in cycles it will rise again. Also the real issue is the lack of proactive management that isn't tied by self interest not a perceived idea that there are too many teams in Sydney.

People seem to think culling Sydney teams or merging them makes for super clubs elsewhere.

People need to look at the stats and that is in Canberra, Gosford, Auckland, Melbourne and Wollongong crowds average LESS than Sydney. Adelaide and Perth (ave 13,000 in 1995 and 8500 in 1996) would be around the same mark.

Merging clubs doesn't grow clubs either eg St.George Illawarra averaged 12,500 this year which is about what Saints averaged on their own in 1994 and Illawarra averaged 12,000 in 1994.

It's all wishful thinking that we will get these powerhouse clubs.

Outside of Victoria, NSW and Queensland we only really need Perth. Why is Adelaide so important to the success of our code?

 

[krudmonk]

Tribalism barely exists in common stadia.

 

[The Colonel]

Rather than rationalising the game in Sydney, why can't we grow the game so there is more for everyone? People forget the game goes in cycles it will rise again. Also the real issue is the lack of proactive management that isn't tied by self interest not a perceived idea that there are too many teams in Sydney.

People seem to think culling Sydney teams or merging them makes for super clubs elsewhere.

People need to look at the stats and that is in Canberra, Gosford, Auckland, Melbourne and Wollongong crowds average LESS than Sydney. Adelaide and Perth (ave 13,000 in 1995 and 8500 in 1996) would be around the same mark.

Merging clubs doesn't grow clubs either eg St.George Illawarra averaged 12,500 this year which is about what Saints averaged on their own in 1994 and Illawarra averaged 12,000 in 1994.

It's all wishful thinking that we will get these powerhouse clubs.

Outside of Victoria, NSW and Queensland we only really need Perth. Why is Adelaide so important to the success of our code?

That is it in a nutshell....... culling Syndey teams won't necessarily boost the fan base. A lot of Bears and Jets supporters don't support an NRL team now because their team doesn't exist......

 

[LeagueXIII]

Tribalism barely exists in common stadia

Well if that is the case lets find out what makes it work and make a plan that in the best interests of growing our game.

 

[thug jimmy]

Logic suggests that for the game to grow and become a truly national sport like cricket there are too many NSW teams.

However nobody is willing to give up thier team.

there can never be too many teams.

logic suggests that when you have a lawyer leading rugby league fans, the fans aren't going to get what they want.... he's a lawyer!!!

i think it comes down to mismanagement.
i hear about the nrl spending money on advertising, but in all honesty, when do you ever see an add on tv before a footy game that gets you pumped?
they are scared to cross boundaries.
they are boring and predictable.
we need a change.