U20 comp given green light

[East Coast Tiger]

"The ARL confirmed the current Harold Matthews and SG Ball competitions would be expanded to become national pre-season under-16 and under-18 competitions. Both competitions will include the three Queensland NRL sides, and Melbourne Storm in a joint venture with Central Coast Rip."

Wonder who's going to pay for the travel involved with that.

Are the HM and SGB currently played pre-season? What do the kids do after these comps finish?

They go back to their local clubs. The 16s and 18s are "junior rep" sides for each district/area so in theory they are the best kids from the St George district, Parramatta district, Newcastle/Hunter area etc. Of course it's not quite that simple because even at u16 level kids are being signed by NRL clubs from other areas and then bringing them to the cities to play HM and SGB.

As for whose going to pay for it, the clubs and the NRL (same thing really), which makes me wonder again why this under 20s thing is so necessary.

 

[Wicks]

The process is nowhere near complete but the organisations need to do a better job informing the rugby league public Including the changes needed to the nswrl and overall rugby league structure Never a good outcome when the most ardent supporters are discussing the issue with little to no information but their partiality

No one fears change more than a rugby league supporter

Bad decision made by selfish people for selfish reasons. It will be proven bad within a few years, wait and see.

What is selfish about this decision

How are you going to measure the progress of the competition Are you going to stick your neck out and list the standards you see in the nswrl and qld colts and how that will not be met by the new structure even before all the changes have been made

My issue with this is it basically puts premier league in 3rd structure, sending my club further back in the eyes of the rl world. Fantastic way to celebrate 100 years of rugby league (101 seasons), put clubs like norths and newtown further of the scale.

I know I am repeating myself but they are already third in the structure now looking at the way that clubs deal with their best players This formalises what is already happening

 

[Big-Steve]

I know I am repeating myself but they are already third in the structure now looking at the way that clubs deal with their best players This formalises what is already happening

Are we talking about the same thing? Example - Norths currently run 4 teams HM SGB JF and PL. The JF and PL often play before the NRL JF 3rd tier and PL 2nd tier. It looks as though NS will be reduced to one team an open age one that will NOT play before the NRL. Balmain and Wests will also only have a team in this comp.

EFFECTIVLY A THIRD TIER COMP!

This clearly is NOT formailising what already happens.

 

[Red Bear]

"The ARL confirmed the current Harold Matthews and SG Ball competitions would be expanded to become national pre-season under-16 and under-18 competitions. Both competitions will include the three Queensland NRL sides, and Melbourne Storm in a joint venture with Central Coast Rip."

Wonder who's going to pay for the travel involved with that.

Are the HM and SGB currently played pre-season? What do the kids do after these comps finish?

Will Norths be included in this harold matthews/SG Ball comp?

 

[The Colonel]

Are the HM and SGB currently played pre-season? What do the kids do after these comps finish?

Yes. They either return to play for their local club/district or if they have performed well are moved into the Jersey Flegg ranks.

 

[Wicks]

Are we talking about the same thing? Example - Norths currently run 4 teams HM SGB JF and PL. The JF and PL often play before the NRL JF 3rd tier and PL 2nd tier. It looks as though NS will be reduced to one team an open age one that will NOT play before the NRL. Balmain and Wests will also only have a team in this comp.

EFFECTIVLY A THIRD TIER COMP!

This clearly is NOT formailising what already happens.

Most NRL teams already treat premier league as the third tier competition in the way they use players Premier league is just a short lay over for the best players That is why I say it is being formalised

Norths is a different matter You are going into the junior structure of Manly and Souths You might be better able to predict what all that will mean Souths would have known about the National Youth Competition before they signed up with you

There is nothing anywhere near official regarding harold matthews or sg ball but the push is coming from queensland

There would be scope for a Norths team depending on what they want to do themselves It is only a short competition The most games you could have interstate and beyond the current competition is four and that would be unlikely

 

[East Coast Tiger]

What is selfish about this decision

How are you going to measure the progress of the competition Are you going to stick your neck out and list the standards you see in the nswrl and qld colts and how that will not be met by the new structure even before all the changes have been made

It has been made for financial reasons, to save certain people money at the expense of others. That's why. Nothing to do with the standard of football.

 

[Wicks]

It has been made for financial reasons, to save certain people money at the expense of others. That's why. Nothing to do with the standard of football.

Sounds like you come from the selfish standpoint

The financial reasoning involves bringing television coverage and more sponsorship to the game All other reasoning involves the standard of athletes introduced to the game the way in which young players proceed through nrl clubs to play first grade and the overall standard of football

A pure financial decision would go towards the afl structure or at least eliminate one of the competitions completely It wouldnt be about reordering the competitions and restructuring the nswrl which is what we will see here

There will be two competitions under the nrl banner and three under the nswrl Then maybe later a coalition between states for the harold matthews and sg ball These could be seen as the steps towards integrating the management rugby league

Where is your plan for comparison

 

[skeepe]

Most NRL teams already treat premier league as the third tier competition in the way they use players Premier league is just a short lay over for the best players That is why I say it is being formalised

That is so incorrect it's laughable.

Where do the best players, who aren't ready for first grade, play to get them ready? Premier League (or Qld Cup). There are plenty of Flegg-eligible players in Premier League who are there because it is the second tier, and is treated as such.

You're a waffler, pure and simple.

 

[innsaneink]

I tend to agree to a point with ECT that it is about financial reasons, in that basically the only people Ive heard talking about this is NRL club CEOs, denis Fitzy several times and this morning Steve Noyce again, probably the thid time ive heard him, I may have heard Gallop on the subject once.

Seems odd such a major change is just being discussed by the clubs bosses, that seems to be the only avenue media can get any info.

Noyce BTW in not so many words again stressed this morning there'll be NO senior players, purely U20's and nothing more, apparently they looked at the ESL U19's that had several seniors permitted....wasnt so hot apparently, some seem to think this will be the case.
I also thought I heard him say this morning that this whole U20's thing is basically Denis Fitzys baby...all his idea, but I WAS still half asleep (Wed's me day off) so hope I misheard. :sarcasm:

 

[East Coast Tiger]

The u20s comp will not bring money into the game. It might (might!) bring money into the NRL clubs, though probably not. It is likely to save NRL clubs money and that's why it's happening. Nothing to do with improving standards or anything like that.
The reason it is bad is because it has the potential to kill the lower tiers of the game like the Qld Cup.
Once again it's a case of the NRL making decisions for the NRL clubs and partners and not for the game of rugby league as a whole.

 

[girvie]

Here are some quotes from this article

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20916325-5006066,00.html

With the eventual introduction of the younger national age-group competitions, rugby league bosses believe they can fight off rugby union and AFL in the battle for talented young athletes by folding them into a club at a formative age.

How can they say this?

It will halve the number of players who are able to play in a Top level Under-20 rugby league competition.

In 2008 there will be 15 top level Under-20s teams in Australia. Approximately 30 players for each squad. 30 x 15 = 450 players.

In 2006 there were 14 teams playing top level Under-20s in NSW and 11 teams in Queensland. This means approximately 750 players (420 in NSW, 330 in Qld) played top level Under-20s rugby league in 2006.

That means 300 players who could have been playing top level Under-20s in 2008 but will miss out because of this new competition.

Maybe some will stay with rugby league, but I think that more will be lost to rugby union and AFL than will be gained by this competition.

Melbourne will play their under-20s out of the Central Coast, having already forged a junior development partnership beginning next year.

I can’t believe they are doing this. Shouldn’t they be basing their team in Melbourne, and giving an opportunity to Melbourne juniors?

 

[East Coast Tiger]

Your facts aren't quite right Girvie but I agree with your sentiment. I can't see how they can argue a national under 20s comp will be a boost for young players and for their development. The current Flegg competition in NSW does the same job for NSW players/clubs and I don't think the Qld clubs have a problem with their current setup, after all the Broncos were against the under 20s comp. For a NSW club the u20 comp would just be an expanded Flegg. If anything it would just mean more travel. So I can't believe NSW clubs are keen on this idea because of the supposed benefits on the field for their under 20 players. There must be another reason and it has to be money.

 

[Big-Steve]

That is so incorrect it's laughable.

Where do the best players, who aren't ready for first grade, play to get them ready? Premier League (or Qld Cup). There are plenty of Flegg-eligible players in Premier League who are there because it is the second tier, and is treated as such.

You're a waffler, pure and simple.

This is true Premier League is definitly THE major comp after the NRL.

 

[Big-Steve]

I tend to agree to a point with ECT that it is about financial reasons, in that basically the only people Ive heard talking about this is NRL club CEOs, denis Fitzy several times and this morning Steve Noyce again, probably the thid time ive heard him, I may have heard Gallop on the subject once.

Seems odd such a major change is just being discussed by the clubs bosses, that seems to be the only avenue media can get any info.

Noyce BTW in not so many words again stressed this morning there'll be NO senior players, purely U20's and nothing more, apparently they looked at the ESL U19's that had several seniors permitted....wasnt so hot apparently, some seem to think this will be the case.
I also thought I heard him say this morning that this whole U20's thing is basically Denis Fitzys baby...all his idea, but I WAS still half asleep (Wed's me day off) so hope I misheard. :sarcasm:

Yes I agree Steve Noyce is pushing this big time as are a number of NSW NRL sides infact all except Manly. Ironicly he talks up the fact that there will not be Balmain and Wests junior teams to 'have to deal woith" while these teams themselves have not even been consulted about it.

In fact the whole process seems completely unprofessional. There was a NSWRL delegate meeting last Friday at which no mention was made of any changes to the HM and SGB and then the ARL are in the papers 'confirming' there will be changes. I find this unbelieveable that the ARL would think it correct to say this with no consultation.

 

[Wicks]

Where do the best players, who aren't ready for first grade, play to get them ready?

The most significant training grounds for the best players are in sg ball fogs colts and secondary schools Jersey Flegg and premier league are merely stop overs because they can play at 18 and 19 in first grade

The next group of potential NRL players do spend more time developing in jersey flegg than premier league but it all depends on the personnel each team has It changes every year and sometimes how teams are going in he competition

The more important factor is the number of players eligible for an under 20s competition and when players are coming into first grade This points to favouring the under 20s competition and the best players available rather than splitting players into four competitions across two states

The u20s comp will not bring money into the game. It might (might!) bring money into the NRL clubs, though probably not. It is likely to save NRL clubs money and that's why it's happening. Nothing to do with improving standards or anything like that.
The reason it is bad is because it has the potential to kill the lower tiers of the game like the Qld Cup.
Once again it's a case of the NRL making decisions for the NRL clubs and partners and not for the game of rugby league as a whole.

You can keep repeating the same thing over and over again It wont make it true

Qld Cup cant survive without the under 20s players at three or four NRL clubs I find that hard to believe

The NRL clubs are making the decisions not the NRL

It will halve the number of players who are able to play in a Top level Under-20 rugby league competition.

In 2008 there will be 15 top level Under-20s teams in Australia. Approximately 30 players for each squad. 30 x 15 = 450 players.

In 2006 there were 14 teams playing top level Under-20s in NSW and 11 teams in Queensland. This means approximately 750 players (420 in NSW, 330 in Qld) played top level Under-20s rugby league in 2006.

Those numbers arent right There isnt an under 20s in Qld for starters The under 18s is the equivalent of sg ball Are the number of under 20s in qld cup and fogs cup 330 You havent looked at this

The change in the structure in NSW is even less about numbers and more about the order in which players should proceed through the system The premier league will be there in a different form

Also only 12 teams really compete in those lower grades and that seems to be the number of teams that will be in NSW in the youth competition There will be opportunities for the players to supplement the premier league qld cup equivalents

The current Flegg competition in NSW does the same job for NSW players/clubs and I don't think the Qld clubs have a problem with their current setup, after all the Broncos were against the under 20s comp. For a NSW club the u20 comp would just be an expanded Flegg. If anything it would just mean more travel. So I can't believe NSW clubs are keen on this idea because of the supposed benefits on the field for their under 20 players. There must be another reason and it has to be money.

The benefit is in the change in structure and the progress made through the grades It more clearly defines how the best footballers progress It should mean we hold onto and bring more of the top 18 and 19 year old athletes to the game

There are similarities Why wouldnt there be but I dont think jersey flegg or the qld cup provides all the same benefits mentioned earlier when you look at the sport as a whole

 

[East Coast Tiger]

The most significant training grounds for the best players are in sg ball fogs colts and secondary schools Jersey Flegg and premier league are merely stop overs because they can play at 18 and 19 in first grade

The next group of potential NRL players do spend more time developing in jersey flegg than premier league but it all depends on the personnel each team has It changes every year and sometimes how teams are going in he competition

The more important factor is the number of players eligible for an under 20s competition and when players are coming into first grade This points to favouring the under 20s competition and the best players available rather than splitting players into four competitions across two states


You can keep repeating the same thing over and over again It wont make it true

Qld Cup cant survive without the under 20s players at three or four NRL clubs I find that hard to believe

The NRL clubs are making the decisions not the NRL


Those numbers arent right There isnt an under 20s in Qld for starters The under 18s is the equivalent of sg ball Are the number of under 20s in qld cup and fogs cup 330 You havent looked at this

The change in the structure in NSW is even less about numbers and more about the order in which players should proceed through the system The premier league will be there in a different form

Also only 12 teams really compete in those lower grades and that seems to be the number of teams that will be in NSW in the youth competition There will be opportunities for the players to supplement the premier league qld cup equivalents


The benefit is in the change in structure and the progress made through the grades It more clearly defines how the best footballers progress It should mean we hold onto and bring more of the top 18 and 19 year old athletes to the game

There are similarities Why wouldnt there be but I dont think jersey flegg or the qld cup provides all the same benefits mentioned earlier when you look at the sport as a whole

There is no change in structure in NSW, the NSW clubs will just play against a few more clubs. So why do NSW clubs care? I'll tell you, it's because they want to scrap Premier League to save them money. I will keep repeating that because it is true.
By the way there is no under 18s comp in Qld (Brisbane area) either, so shows how much you know.

 

[Wicks]

There is no change in structure in NSW, the NSW clubs will just play against a few more clubs. So why do NSW clubs care? I'll tell you, it's because they want to scrap Premier League to save them money. I will keep repeating that because it is true.
By the way there is no under 18s comp in Qld (Brisbane area) either, so shows how much you know.

The fogs colts is under 19s

The change in structure is there when you look at how players move through the ranks On the other hand it may be considered a subtle change because the two competitions nsw supporters are familiar with will be reordered to suit player development The final structure of the overage competition will be discussed through the offseaon and into next year

Scrap premier league in what form What is the premier league with the wests tigers sending most of their best players to balmain ryde roosters in newtown uniforms and souths in norths uniforms It is a competition in limbo because this is the move that was expected to be made It also has a chance to become something more as an overage competition rather than the current halfway solution

If you were saying something true based on information you had then it would be enough to post that information and you could walk away from the discussion I am at that point now

You talk money and performance yet you are not willing to track any of progress Anyone can tell you that tv coverage and sponsorship means more money for the game Anyone can tell you that having the best young players together will be a better product providing for development and attracting new players Yet you say no because you want to cut the competition you know little about down and defend a flawed structure and competition which has needed reform for years

 

[nqboy]

Does your fullstop key work Wicks?

 

[East Coast Tiger]

The under 20s comp WILL undermine the Qld Cup, if not cause its death. That's what is at stake. The NRL clubs in NSW don't care about that but I do and so should everyone else that claims to be a league supporter. Is this under 20s comp with no clear and proven benefits worth that? Denis Fitzgerald will say yes. That's just another reason to question the whole thing.