U20 comp given green light

[Quidgybo]

The yet unamed open age comp involving Newtwon, Norths ect must be televised on the ABC. They must give this comp profile.

Without wanting to beat the drum too much on the national second tier competition concept, I think you could realistically get three matches telecast each week. Two on Saturday afternoon, one played in Brisbane and the other in Sydney. And a third match at midday on Sundays played as a curtain raiser before a 2pm NRL match (or in Auckland at 2pm before a 4pm NRL match). The two Saturday games would be covered by the Brisbane and Sydney based ABC crews respectively and broadcast either simulataneously with a different game into each state or as a Nein style double header into both states at 2pm and 4pm. The Sunday match would be played between the NRL U/20s match and the NRL first grade match and would be covered on Fox Sports making use of the crew already setup for the NRL telecast at 2pm. Contrast this with the Queensland Cup where you are unlikely to ever see regular coverage of more than one game each week and the existing Premier League that gets no coverage and you'd have a competition with a huge profile and marketing advantage over the state leagues.

Leigh

 

[nqboy]

Pie in the Sky.

 

[Quidgybo]

Which someone has already said - tell me why.

Leigh.

 

[nqboy]

The ABC can't be bothered covering RL in NSW atm. What's going to change their minds?

 

[Quidgybo]

So you'd agree that NSW coverage is an issue regardless of whether we are talking a new state based second tier or a national second tier? What might change their mind? A competition that appeals to an audience in multiple states.

Leigh.

 

[greenhat]

i agree nqboy

with the sydney union comp being killed off for the national provincial comp, nsw abc is gonna need something new to show on saturdays

but
unless fox or someone has got the rights to the NPC (i have no idea)
i think we can assume the union loving nsw abc will be broadcasting it, and continue to inexplicably ignore the state's most popular sport

 

[Lockyer4President!]

Quidgybo, why are you so obsessed with creating yet another national comp? Even if it was a success it will still be a financial blackhole. If it isn't a success then we've just wasted a few years and millions of $$$ on a sideshow.

Like I said before, all that needs to happen is for more NRL/ARL support of the QC and PL competitions, we need to support them, not tear them apart. Australia doesn't need yet another shiny new sporting competition.

 

[Quidgybo]

Quidgybo, why are you so obsessed with creating yet another national comp? Even if it was a success it will still be a financial blackhole. If it isn't a success then we've just wasted a few years and millions of $$$ on a sideshow.

Like I said before, all that needs to happen is for more NRL/ARL support of the QC and PL competitions, we need to support them, not tear them apart. Australia doesn't need yet another shiny new sporting competition.

A single second tier comp for NSW and QLD (with Auckland and the WARL) need be no more a blackhole than the existing Queensland Cup or running two second tier comps instead of one. It is not just an obsession I have with a national competition. I am merely working with the situation as it stands. If it were as feasible to pursue a mutli league or conference model in the coming new reality of second tier RL, then I have a fair idea how I think it should be done. But there are a number of facts that point towards the single second tier comp.

Like it or not the facts are the NRL U/20s and the withdrawl of 15 teams worth of players from the second tier is happening. Like it or not, Auckland and the WARL are entering a second tier comp where the majority of teams are based on the Australian east coast. Like it or not, the Cowboys Young Guns are going to withdraw from the QLD Cup. Like it or not, the NRL Premier League clubs are likely to withdraw from that competition. It's not a question of deciding to rip apart the PL. That decision has been taken for us. It's gone. And one more fact, like it or not, the Qld Cup is already a travel intensive geographically spread comp where the bottom most clubs have proved to be consistently incapable of competing on the field and/or maintaining their participation in the competition.

Rather than trying to fight this reality or trying to come up with a new NSW competition and another eight or ten clubs to populate it, I'm suggesting we roll what's left from NSW into the successful core of the Queensland Cup and make that the competition that we let Auckland and Perth play in. Given the reality that we find ourselves in, it's actually a less radical concept than creating an entirely new competition in NSW and funding and staffing all the additional teams.

Leigh.

 

[Lockyer4President!]

Like it or not the facts are the NRL U/20s and the withdrawl of 15 teams worth of players from the second tier is happening.

This is really being overstated, how many of those U20's players would actually be in the QC or PL teams? Not many, most of them will be from the 3rd tier and lower.

Like it or not, Auckland and the WARL are entering a second tier comp where the majority of teams are based on the Australian east coast.

Adding two teams is not a good reason to scrap two competitions.

Like it or not, the Cowboys Young Guns are going to withdraw from the QLD Cup.

Mackay and Cairns are joining in their place with support from the Cowboys.

And one more fact, like it or not, the Qld Cup is already a travel intensive geographically spread comp where the bottom most clubs have proved to be consistently incapable of competing on the field and/or maintaining their participation in the competition.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because it's a chore atm for QC teams to travel isn't a reason to accept a comp where the travel is even worse.


I really think you need to step back and see the big picture. Fully supported state competions in NSW and QLD are the way forward for rl. We can't just go and create a new competition whenever someone thinks it'd be cool. We don't need it. True the new television rights deal is going to inject a lot of cash into the NRL but we can't just piss huge amounts of it away on a blackhole comp that does nothing for developing the depth of the game.

Ask yourself, how many NSWelshmen will watch a comp that is built around the QC with 2 NSW teams in it? Almost none, and without the support of NSW the comp will be doomed to failure. Then ask youself how may more of them would watch a revamped PL comp. Balmain v Norths or Newtown v Central Comets. It's a no-brainer.

 

[innsaneink]

This thread is the biggest headache Ive ever seen on LU.

 

[Quidgybo]

I really think you need to step back and see the big picture. Fully supported state competions in NSW and QLD are the way forward for rl.

Why? Why is there this assumption that the second tier must be split by state boundaries? Why not a *fully supported* ARL run comp?

We can't just go and create a new competition whenever someone thinks it'd be cool. We don't need it.

But that's exactly what you're proposing for NSW. The Premier League will no longer exist because of decisions already taken. Why should we create a new competition, essentially just because it's NSW, when we have a perfect foundation on which to build in an existing competition?

True the new television rights deal is going to inject a lot of cash into the NRL but we can't just piss huge amounts of it away on a blackhole comp that does nothing for developing the depth of the game.

Does nothing?!? The same way any existing or proposed second tier comp does nothing. Any of the proposals we're discussing will by its very existence develop depth for the game in NSW, QLD, WA and Auckland. The difference will be the number of teams that we as a game have to support. A single competition of around 12 teams or multiple competitions encompassing 20 or more teams (in addition to the 16 NRL U/20s teams the game will be introducing). Funding all those extra teams is where the huge amounts of money will be pissed away.

Ask yourself, how many NSWelshmen will watch a comp that is built around the QC with 2 NSW teams in it? Almost none, and without the support of NSW the comp will be doomed to failure. Then ask youself how may more of them would watch a revamped PL comp. Balmain v Norths or Newtown v Central Comets. It's a no-brainer.

You'll note in my example I listed four Sydney teams. So how many would watch a comp where Balmain play North Sydney *and* Newtown play Redcliffe *and* Norths Devils play Cairns? All in the same weekend and possibly all televised. And where the result of an all Queensland match could dramatically affect the standings and finals chances of teams in NSW. The combined market reach of a comp focussed on two states instead of one immediately gives it a massive support and sponsorship advantage. That really is a no brainer.

Leigh.

 

[Lockyer4President!]

Why? Why is there this assumption that the second tier must be split by state boundaries? Why not a *fully supported* ARL run comp?

Simply because those competitions are already in place. This ARL comp is a figment of someone's imagination.

But that's exactly what you're proposing for NSW. The Premier League will no longer exist because of decisions already taken. Why should we create a new competition, essentially just because it's NSW, when we have a perfect foundation on which to build in an existing competition?

Disbandment of the PL is pure speculation at this point, the only fact we have atm is that the JBC is not going to change.

Does nothing?!? The same way any existing or proposed second tier comp does nothing. Any of the proposals we're discussing will by its very existence develop depth for the game in NSW, QLD, WA and Auckland. The difference will be the number of teams that we as a game have to support. A single competition of around 12 teams or multiple competitions encompassing 20 or more teams. Funding all those extra teams is where the huge amounts of money will be pissed away.

Do you really think that it will cost more to support existing teams in an existing comp or creating a brand new comp, along with marketing it so people know it exists, higher travel costs than the NRL, etc.

You'll note in my example I listed four Sydney teams. So how many would watch a comp where Balmain play North Sydney *and* Newtown play Redcliffe *and* Norths Devils play Cairns? All in the same weekend and possibly all televised. And where the result of an all Queensland match could dramatically affect the standings and finals chances of teams in NSW.

Okay, so 4 Sydney teams and 13 QLD teams, I'm sure the NSW people will watch this with interest.

The combined market reach of a comp focussed on two states instead of one immediately gives it a massive support and sponsorship advantage.

You're forgetting this a 2nd tier comp, the quality isn't going to be too flash when we are used to NRL standards. Do you really think people will be jumping over each other to offer sponsorship for a lower quality comp?

That really is a no brainer.

At least we agree on something.

 

[Quidgybo]

Simply because those competitions are already in place. This ARL comp is a figment of someone's imagination.

So is the NSW PL after 10 clubs withdraw their teams to fund NRL U/20s teams. So is any proposed NSWRL run replacement for PL after that happens. Figments of imagination or proposed response to a real world situation? Same thing really.

Disbandment of the PL is pure speculation at this point, the only fact we have atm is that the JBC is not going to change.

Now we're back to denying the reality of the situation. Take 10 NRL backed teams out of PL and you don't have PL anymore. Even if you reuse the name, it's a new comp, requiring s new financial structure and a lot of new second tier teams. The only question is what figment of someone's imagination, sorry, what proposal we're going to pursue to address the situation.

Do you really think that it will cost more to support existing teams in an existing comp or creating a brand new comp, along with marketing it so people know it exists, higher travel costs than the NRL, etc.

Again, what existing teams and what existing comp? In 2008 you've only got two certain starters left (three including Auckland) and no comp.

Okay, so 4 Sydney teams and 13 QLD teams, I'm sure the NSW people will watch this with interest.

That's a straw man argument. If you're going to judge my proposal you should at least check what I've proposed. As I said above, I'm suggesting we roll what's left from NSW into the successful core of the Queensland Cup. That's a core of 6 QLD teams instead of 11, plus 4 from Sydney, plus Auckland and the WARL team - 12 teams total. And just as Queensland watches with passion a comp with 3 Queensland teams and 11 NSW/ACT teams I see no reason why NSW fans would be too proud to watch a comp where they have a third of the teams.

You're forgetting this a 2nd tier comp, the quality isn't going to be too flash when we are used to NRL standards. Do you really think people will be jumping over each other to offer sponsorship for a lower quality comp?

Nope I'm not forgetting that it's a second tier comp at all. Whether it be a be a single second tier comp or multiple second tier state comps, the sponsorship environment and requirments will be the same. Without team and competition sponsorship the Queensland Cup doesn't exist. This is going to be true of any second tier comp. But comparatively the comp with the larger combined market reach will have a massive advantage.

Leigh.

 

[Lockyer4President!]

So is the NSW PL after 10 clubs withdraw their teams to fund NRL U/20s teams. So is any proposed NSWRL run replacement for PL after that happens. Figments of imagination or proposed response to a real world situation? Same thing really.

No-one has said the NRL teams are pulling out of PL. You need to stop saying that as if it's already happened.

Now we're back to denying the reality of the situation. Take 10 NRL backed teams out of PL and you don't have PL anymore. Even if you reuse the name, it's a new comp, requiring s new financial structure and a lot of new second tier teams. The only question is what figment of someone's imagination, sorry, what proposal we're going to pursue to address the situation.

Again, this hasn't happened yet and may never actually come to pass.

Again, what existing teams and what existing comp? In 2008 you've only got two certain starters left (three including Auckland) and no comp.

What?

That's a straw man argument. If you're going to judge my proposal you should at least check what I've proposed. As I said above, I'm suggesting we roll what's left from NSW into the successful core of the Queensland Cup. That's a core of 6 QLD teams instead of 11, plus 4 from Sydney, plus Auckland and the WARL team - 12 teams total. And just as Queensland watches with passion a comp with 3 Queensland teams and 11 NSW/ACT teams I see no reason why NSW fans would be too proud to watch a comp where they have a third of the teams.

I stopped reading too much into the details in your comps when you said that Beenleigh should be in the 2nd tier comp.

Nope I'm not forgetting that it's a second tier comp at all. Whether it be a be a single second tier comp or multiple second tier state comps, the sponsorship environment and requirments will be the same. Without team and competition sponsorship the Queensland Cup doesn't exist. This is going to be true of any second tier comp. But comparatively the comp with the larger combined market reach will have a massive advantage.

The whole crux of your argument is based on the NRL teams leaving PL, which hasn't happened and may never happen...

There are two main reasons why the 2nd tier comp is a bad idea:
1, It would be a financial blackhole.
2, We don't need it.

 

[Quidgybo]

I stopped reading too much into the details in your comps when you said that Beenleigh should be in the 2nd tier comp.

Which I had corrected in my posts (including the one you've linked to) after I double checked. I of course meant the Burleigh Bears, the two time premiers and two time runnners-up. But it's easy to dismiss outright at the first excuse rather than actually give some thought to the merits of an idea.

The whole crux of your argument is based on the NRL teams leaving PL, which hasn't happened and may never happen...

Yep, it is based on that. And with 15 out of 16 teams voting to fund a NRL run comp, St George essentially replacing their PL team with U/20s in preparation for that comp, and Geoff Carr saying the NSWRL has got to come up with something to deal with those teams that have indicated they don't want to compete, it's not a huge leap of logic to see where this is going. But fine, regardless of if it does happen or not let's for the moment assume it will and that we've got to develop a plan for that situation. What figment of someone's imagination shall we use?

There are two main reasons why the 2nd tier comp is a bad idea:
1, It would be a financial blackhole.
2, We don't need it.

Both generic accusations that could be leveled, rightly or wrongly, at any second tier comp including the Queensland Cup.

Leigh.

 

[Lockyer4President!]

Which I had corrected in my posts (including the one you've linked to) after I double checked. I of course meant the Burleigh Bears, the two time premiers and two time runnners-up. But it's easy to dismiss outright at the first excuse rather than actually give some thought to the merits of an idea.

You mentioned Beenleigh twice and only edited it out minutes ago. How am I supposed to know when you've made a mistake? Am I to assume that this plan for a 2nd tier comp is wrong and what you really meant to say was we should get the NRL/ARL to help revamp the QC/PL?

Yep, it is based on that. And with 15 out of 16 teams voting to fund a NRL run comp, St George essentially replacing their PL team with U/20s in preparation for that comp, and Geoff Carr saying the NSWRL has got to come up with something to deal with those teams that have indicated they don't want to compete, it's not a huge leap of logic to see where this is going.

The Dragons withdrawing their team from PL doesn't mean anything. If the PL is redeveloped then it's likely they'll rejoin.

But fine, regardless of if it does happen or not let's for the moment assume it will and that we've got to develop a plan for that situation. What figment of someone's imagination shall we use?

Certainly not the one that creates a brand spanking new comp that would be a financial disaster.

Both generic accusations that could be leveled, rightly or wrongly, at any second tier comp including the Queensland Cup.

Yes, they could, but nowhere near the same extent. You've admitted that the 2nd tier comp will be a massive financial drain but said it doesn't matter because the new tv deal will cover it. Really, what kind of thinking is that. The QC and a revamped PL would cost far less and be more stable, as well as giving more players a shot at the top levels.

 

[Quidgybo]

You mentioned Beenleigh twice and only edited it out minutes ago. How am I supposed to know when you've made a mistake? Am I to assume that this plan for a 2nd tier comp is wrong and what you really meant to say was we should get the NRL/ARL to help revamp the QC/PL?

Not quite, I mentioned it twice and edited it out once over a day ago. I corrected the second instance when I noticed it just now. My sincere apologies. But quiet apart from this distraction it doesn't make my twelve team example even remotely like what you were trying to represent it as in support of your arguments.

Certainly not the one that creates a brand spanking new comp that would be a financial disaster.

Again a misrepresentation of my proposal to prove your point. I have proposed a second tier comp built on the existing foundation of the Queensland Cup. Exactly the same as the ARL comp in 1995 was built on the foundation of the previous NSWRL and as today's NRL is still largely based on that foundation. A brand spanking new comp in name only.

You've admitted that the 2nd tier comp will be a massive financial drain but said it doesn't matter because the new tv deal will cover it.

What a gross distortion of this thread. I have said travel costs would be the most signifcant issue, nothing more. I have said funding would come from the QRL funds redirected from running it's own comp and concentrated from funding 10/11 teams to funding 6 teams. I have said funding would come from the NSWRL funds redirected from running it's own comp. I have said funds would also come from Leagues clubs backing some teams, affliate arrangements with NRL clubs, the self financed Auckland operation and the ARL backed Perth team. And I have said funds would come from the higher profile of a competition with a larger market and the increased sponsorship opportunites that allows. The additional funding from the new television deal was quite literally the last thing I mentioned.

As I said previously, you're setting up straw men (in my name) to knock down. If this is the only way you can respond to my arguments then there is really little point us continuing with this.

Leigh.

 

[Lockyer4President!]

there is really little point us continuing with this.

Indeed, in two multipage threads you have yet to detail one convincing argument in favour of a new competition.

 

[Quidgybo]

Indeed, in two multipage threads you have yet to detail one convincing argument in favour of a new competition.

Not surprising given I was never arguing in favour of a new competition, but rather just suggesting the extension of an existing one. It's your failure to recognise even that simple fact that makes it pointless to drag this on further.

Leigh

 

[East Coast Tiger]

That's a straw man argument. If you're going to judge my proposal you should at least check what I've proposed. As I said above, I'm suggesting we roll what's left from NSW into the successful core of the Queensland Cup. That's a core of 6 QLD teams instead of 11, plus 4 from Sydney, plus Auckland and the WARL team - 12 teams total. And just as Queensland watches with passion a comp with 3 Queensland teams and 11 NSW/ACT teams I see no reason why NSW fans would be too proud to watch a comp where they have a third of the teams.

And what happens to the Qld Cup clubs (at least five even by your reckoning, although probably more like six or seven) that are not part of this national comp?
This plan does not add the remaining NSW clubs to the Qld Cup, it rips the guts out of the Qld Cup and still makes the whole thing far more expensive for everyone concerned.
I agree that a national second tier comp would be a financial black hole and even if it was successful would add little to the game, especially in Qld.