Ultrathread I: Thread of the Year - 2014

[Apey]

It's a community, it's an encouragement for people to be better to one another, it's a set of loose moral 'laws' for people to follow that, generally speaking, do make them better people (aside from the recent shit like homophobia and 'no condoms', which can be attributed to the Church rather than the religion itself), and we've all just been discussing the fact that it does have a basis in history.

For a moment, I'll go along and say religion in general does these things.

This is a touchy subject so I'll try to tread carefully but I've just never understood this point of view. I mean it's all well and good that the umbrella of religion provides a lot of positive things for its adherents. However it has no bearing on the truth of the matter, and to me the truth is the most important thing. What I'm getting at is are these people adhering to this religion because they genuinely believe in the faith or because of the community aspect it provides and what it provides to them emotionally and spiritually? Do people convince themselves it's true without really believing it just so they can be apart of all this? It just feels like they're accepting it to be true for all the wrong reasons to me; but each to their own of course. I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.

 

[afinalsin666]

The Supreme Being concept, I believe, springs for a fear of death. Given life for much of human history has been short, hard, and often violent - is it any surprise that people wanted something to give that struggle meaning? Or to know that once it was all done, they'd be given some kind of reward for the shit they had to go through?

See, if there is a Great One God, why would he allow us into his realm? You said yourself that it is arrogant and conceited of the human race to assume he watches us and guides us through all we do, so why would he care when we die?

 

[Dragon2010]

If only I could post some of the hate-filled comments religious people on my facebook make towards gays and other different social/status groups. Alas, I can't.

 

[Misanthrope]

For a moment, I'll go along and say religion in general does these things.

This is a touchy subject so I'll try to tread carefully but I've just never understood this point of view. I mean it's all well and good that the umbrella of religion provides a lot of positive things for its adherents. However it has no bearing on the truth of the matter, and to me the truth is the most important thing. What I'm getting at is are these people adhering to this religion because they genuinely believe in the faith or because of the community aspect it provides and what it provides to them emotionally and spiritually? Do people convince themselves it's true without really believing it just so they can be apart of all this? It just feels like they're accepting it to be true for all the wrong reasons to me; but each to their own of course. I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say.

I think you'll find people of all kinds and across the whole spectrum you've described attending Church, although I imagine most would at the very least admit to believing in a God.

And what's wrong with that? Nobody's proven that there wasn't a God or that he hasn't sent Prophets. The major 'disproven' elements of the Bible could be argued to have been allegorical to begin with. I don't know many Catholics who still believe that the earth was literally created by God in seven days.

The tale of Adam and Eve is much like any other creation mythology.

The greatest disservice the Christian religion does itself is adhering to the obvious fallacy that the Old Testament wasn't essentially an extended creation mythology with mingled bits of truth.

 

[Misanthrope]

See, if there is a Great One God, why would he allow us into his realm? You said yourself that it is arrogant and conceited of the human race to assume he watches us and guides us through all we do, so why would he care when we die?

I haven't said at any point that I do believe in Heaven.

If only I could post some of the hate-filled comments religious people on my facebook make towards gays and other different social/status groups. Alas, I can't.

Don't confuse religious people with people who use religion to justify their own prejudices If it weren't God telling them androtops were bad, it would be something else.

And even when it is religiously motivated, that comes back to the early leaders of the Church deciding what to put in themselves. Somebody went "Hey, I dislike homosexuals and this crazy Leviticus guy says it's wrong. Let's include that!"

 

[Apey]

but I do not believe that God is still up there playing a hand in everything that goes on.

That makes two of us.

I believe that any being that powerful has far better things to do than watch over the lives of people scurrying about on one planet in a vast universe. It's arrogant of us to think we're his most prized creations and to blame all of life's wrongs (and attribute all of life's successes) to him being up there engineering things.

Well said and I agree (besides the part about him being up there to begin with anyway haha).

There is so much human arrogance in modern religion but outside of it too. It never ceases to amaze me and I find it very frustrating. Our time in this world has been minuscule, the space we take up in this world is next to nothing and the impact we'll have had on it when we're long gone will be barely a blimp on the radar. I can't stand the belief that we humans have some privileged position in the universe because everything suggests it is absolute nonsense.

Don't get me started on the abdication of personal responsibility either. Or praising God for things he had nothing to do with. It genuinely annoys me when people try to attribute the beauty of the world to God - it takes away from it.

Which, while I remember, why is that not good enough? Why does he have to be the son of a mythical being? He was, as best I can tell, a peacemaker and a preacher and a healer and a freedom fighter. That's pretty serious stuff anyway.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

The Supreme Being concept, I believe, springs for a fear of death. Given life for much of human history has been short, hard, and often violent - is it any surprise that people wanted something to give that struggle meaning? Or to know that once it was all done, they'd be given some kind of reward for the shit they had to go through?

It's not surprising in the least. It's not for me but I understand people who believe to help get them through the day. It doesn't make it any more believable, of course. What would surprise me is if other religious people actually shared this viewpoint with you.

 

[Bazal]

That is another thing I hate about Christianity as an organisation (and other religions, but we're on the subject)...it's monstrous to presume that God loves everyone....except the people who don't prescribe to our way of life. The Christian Churches and huge elements of the Christian faith's treatment of homosexuality (for example) is inhuman and quite honestly evil IMO

And I mean that as an organisation, not a religion. I don't believe that any true Christian would wish ill of any other person.

 

[afinalsin666]

I haven't said at any point that I do believe in Heaven.



Don't confuse religious people with people who use religion to justify their own prejudices If it weren't God telling them androtops were bad, it would be something else.

And even when it is religiously motivated, that comes back to the early leaders of the Church deciding what to put in themselves. Somebody went "Hey, I dislike homosexuals and this crazy Leviticus guy says it's wrong. Let's include that!"

Exactly, but the difference is people are brought up in a religious household taught that this is the truth, and if you aren't in line with this you will be punished, and it is taught from the very moment they can understand human language. It isn't that prejudice is hiding behind religion, it's that religion actively teaches prejudice.

 

[Red Bear]

Religion was done for me when they said that dogs don't go to heaven tbh

 

[afinalsin666]

Jesus only died for our sins, not for Cujo's. I wonder if there is a dog jesus that will come and die for their sins?

 

[Misanthrope]

It's not surprising in the least. It's not for me but I understand people who believe to help get them through the day. It doesn't make it any more believable, of course. What would surprise me is if other religious people actually shared this viewpoint with you.

Well, nobody can know what happens after we die beyond the scientific and biological stuff. The brain shuts down and the body decomposes etc.

We can't say that there definitively is or is not an afterlife. You can choose to believe that there isn't and others can choose to have faith that there is.

It's not hurting anybody one way or the other in that respect, although some of the doctrine around it does hurt people.

That is another thing I hate about Christianity as an organisation (and other religions, but we're on the subject)...it's monstrous to presume that God loves everyone....except the people who don't prescribe to our way of life. The Christian Churches and huge elements of the Christian faith's treatment of homosexuality (for example) is inhuman and quite honestly evil IMO

And I mean that as an organisation, not a religion. I don't believe that any true Christian would wish ill of any other person.

That comes back to my original point re: Roman editing. Some dude read it and thought 'I hate androtops, so does Leviticus. Winning'.

It's my biggest gripe with the Roman Catholic Church. That Jesus, whoever he was and to whatever extent he was Holy, preached love and acceptance. He never said anything about hating gay people, nor did any of his disciples as far as I'm aware.

The homophobic shit in the Bible came from people completely unrelated to the central stuff. Drew would know better than me.

Who the f**k was Leviticus?

Exactly, but the difference is people are brought up in a religious household taught that this is the truth, and if you aren't in line with this you will be punished, and it is taught from the very moment they can understand human language. It isn't that prejudice is hiding behind religion, it's that religion actively teaches prejudice.

Not true at all. In some cases, sure; but I was raised religious by a Catholic mother and a Catholic grandmother. I attended Church every Sunday. I was baptised, confirmed, reconciled, and took my first Communion. I attended Catholic School and Sunday School.

My family nor my priests (and I had close to a dozen different ones as I was moving around) never once preached intolerance or homophobia.

Those that I have encountered that do harp on about hating homosexuality almost inevitably are just shitty people. They would have been homophobic either way, but now they've got religion to 'blame' it on. It exonerates them of their own guilt at being shitty human beings.

Religion was done for me when they said that dogs don't go to heaven tbh

Man, I cried like a little bitch when I saw that movie.

Of course, I was 4.

 

[Red Bear]

Man, I cried like a little bitch when I saw that movie.

Of course, I was 4.

What movie?

 

[Misanthrope]

What movie?

:shock: All Dogs Go to Heaven, fool! With Burt Reynolds!

 

[Misanthrope]

P.S. Can I just say how much I love this thread and the FFB in general? If this shit were in Four Corners, it would have devolved hours ago.

 

[Apey]

I think you'll find people of all kinds and across the whole spectrum you've described attending Church, although I imagine most would at the very least admit to believing in a God.

I am genuinely curious though about deism vs theism. Do you think that some people feel that, if they believe in a God, they may as well take the next step and believe in the Christian God or whatever God pervades their culture?

I get the impression that some do, and it's something I can't really get my head around; it's such a huge leap. I disagree with the deist's position but I respect their position much more than that of a theist. I've always interpreted it as someone who believes in a God without all the nonsense that comes with it, which is why I asked if you were one.

And what's wrong with that? Nobody's proven that there wasn't a God or that he hasn't sent Prophets. The major 'disproven' elements of the Bible could be argued to have been allegorical to begin with. I don't know many Catholics who still believe that the earth was literally created by God in seven days.

I think you misunderstood me or I didn't explain myself clearly enough. I wasn't making the claim that these people wrong, just that they're believing it to be true from an emotional position rather than say a more evidence-based position.

Don't confuse religious people with people who use religion to justify their own prejudices If it weren't God telling them androtops were bad, it would be something else.

Agreed, somewhat. I honestly do think some of these people are so brainwashed they only believe it because it's what their religion is telling them to believe. You're right that some of them would be like that anyway.

You know what scares me the most? The people who say that without God there is no morality; that without God there is no reason not to go around killing and raping people (yes I have seen people say these exact things). f**king nutjobs. I wonder if, say the impossible happened and it was proven beyond doubt that there was no God, if these nutters would just go on a rapin' and killin' spree.

 

[Red Bear]

:shock: All Dogs Go to Heaven, fool! With Burt Reynolds!

Never saw that.

Was thinking of another movie, whose name I can't recall, that mentioned the first dog to go to space (Laika).

I do like this verse from noted opium fiend lord byron

But the poor dog, in life the firmest friend,
The first to welcome, foremost to defend,
Whose honest heart is still his master's own,
Who labors, fights, lives, breathes for him alone,
Unhonored falls, unnoticed all his worth,
Denied in heaven the soul he held on earth ?
While man, vain insect! hopes to be forgiven,
And claims himself a sole exclusive heaven

 

[Dragon2010]

Please, I've seen dogs show better signs of intelligence, love (or emotion) for that matter than humans. Dogs are just awesome in general. Cats are too, I guess.

 

[Dragon2010]

P.S. Can I just say how much I love this thread and the FFB in general? If this shit were in Four Corners, it would have devolved hours ago.

"and the FFB in general".

Does that mean you love BulldogForce?

 

[afinalsin666]

Not true at all. In some cases, sure; but I was raised religious by a Catholic mother and a Catholic grandmother. I attended Church every Sunday. I was baptised, confirmed, reconciled, and took my first Communion. I attended Catholic School and Sunday School.

My family nor my priests (and I had close to a dozen different ones as I was moving around) never once preached intolerance or homophobia.

Those that I have encountered that do harp on about hating homosexuality almost inevitably are just shitty people. They would have been homophobic either way, but now they've got religion to 'blame' it on. It exonerates them of their own guilt at being shitty human beings.
.

Hmm, individuals are getting better at it for sure, however it is solely because of religion that nothing has been done to increase the rights of homosexuals, and it shits me to tears. It's always shitty human beings who end up f**king it for the rest, but we all know that.

P.S. Can I just say how much I love this thread and the FFB in general? If this shit were in Four Corners, it would have devolved hours ago.

Tis a good thread, for sure. Keep's the convo on point and it dissipates naturally. Helps that we aren't f**kknuckles like those in four corners though.

 

[afinalsin666]

"and the FFB in general".

Does that mean you love BulldogForce?

BF's biggest crime is being a bit boring, and having the humor of my bad meme posting aunt on facebook. Not too bad compared to the worst in the other subs.