Unpopular Opinion

[SmashEmBro]

Just a fun place to post thoughts or ideas that go against the general consensus.

Feel free to post an unpopular opinion, or argue against one that's been posted.

Mine?
At the Warriors, on field, Reuban Wiki didn't offer anything above an average first grade prop would

Discuss!

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I don't think that many would disagree there- with maybe the exception of his first season with us, and his final run of games from his 300 to us getting knocked out by Manly in the semi. Great leader though.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

If you looked at him in terms of pure metres made or whatever, maybe? I can't remember. But no one f**ked around at training on Ruben's watch. No one took shortcuts. He was an incredibly good leader. Those young boys, especially the Maori and PI guys, wanted to impress Ruben. Pricey was a great leader too but Ruben had the ear of the young guys even more so.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

By that token, Micheal Luck was barely Fox Memorial standard.

But I've never seen a guy in sport who worked harder. I read a quote the other day from Mark Graham - 'if you want to tackle, you will tackle'. And f**k me, he wanted to tackle. I'd argue (if it counts as unpopular) that Micheal Luck was as important as anyone during our successful years, because no one could be around him and not feed off the commitment he gave every training session, every week.

 

[Meth]

Just a fun place to post thoughts or ideas that go against the general consensus.

Feel free to post an unpopular opinion, or argue against one that's been posted.

Discuss!

Great idea

 

[LeagueNut]

I don't know if it's an unpopular opinion as such, but I don't think the club - right from the top down - are anywhere close to being focused enough on the ultimate goal of winning a premiership.

There was stuff being published earlier in the year about how valuable the Warriors are to the whole competition in terms of sponsorship dollars, Pay TV subscriptions, merchandise sales, etc. It was basically saying how we're meeting all of these key targets even through years of under performance. The prevailing attitude right across the club seems to be "why bother actually trying to improve?". If your only goal is to keep the corporate overlords happy, and you're meeting that goal by being bog average on the field, is it worth the risk to change anything?

Having the NZ Herald as a key sponsor hurts us as well. No media in this country seems willing to hold the club to account or ask the hard questions that deserve to be asked.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I don't know if it's an unpopular opinion as such, but I don't think the club - right from the top down - are anywhere close to being focused enough on the ultimate goal of winning a premiership.

There was stuff being published earlier in the year about how valuable the Warriors are to the whole competition in terms of sponsorship dollars, Pay TV subscriptions, merchandise sales, etc. It was basically saying how we're meeting all of these key targets even through years of under performance. The prevailing attitude right across the club seems to be "why bother actually trying to improve?". If your only goal is to keep the corporate overlords happy, and you're meeting that goal by being bog average on the field, is it worth the risk to change anything?

Having the NZ Herald as a key sponsor hurts us as well. No media in this country seems willing to hold the club to account or ask the hard questions that deserve to be asked.

Great post but I don't think it'll be too unpopular. I think it's a great point on the Herald too, SKY could certainly also be accused of being in bed with the Warriors and failing to hold them to account. Same for Radio Sport, certainly back in the Allen Mac days. Although Telfer could give them a decent going over, even if he really had NFI about the game.

I worked in the media from 06-11 (yep, I'm the reason for the golden years) and you couldn't go too hard at the Warriors. They'd just cut you off. If you wrote something defamatory, you'd either potentially lose access or you'd be made to feel very very unwelcome. It was a small group of people so you'd always stick out if you tried to go too hard. That's completely different in Sydney. And the issue with SKY commentators is that they're way too close. All of them are Warriors fans, and most of them either former Warriors, former coaches or 'buddies' with players and staff. Those are the people that supposedly should be giving us the critical analysis but they're too close. Again, not an issue in Sydney as their experts have affiliation to one club at best and feel free to go hard on the rest. Plus they know little about us over here, as evidenced by the fact we hear 'big Warriors forwards' year upon year.

So yeah, I think you're 100% right. There's probably not enough pressure on us to win premierships. Hell, I love Ivan to pieces and we never really looked like winning a premiership under him. But he did more than enough in this environment.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

This is a really great thread, I like the alternative ways of thinking coming up. Keep em coming

 

[LeagueNut]

I worked in the media from 06-11 (yep, I'm the reason for the golden years) and you couldn't go too hard at the Warriors. They'd just cut you off. If you wrote something defamatory, you'd either potentially lose access or you'd be made to feel very very unwelcome.

That reminds me of the bungled interchange in 1995. From what I remember the club 100% blamed the media for bringing that bungle to everyone's attention, so the subsequent loss of competition points was also 100% the medias fault. From what you're saying, that initial reaction has stuck as the default position decades later, which is a wee bit scary.

You bring up a good point about the relationship with Sky as well. It's all far too cosy. Even when our so-called experts try to say something critical it's all wrapped up in the nicest possible way.

I wonder if the other one-club towns & regions get the same sort of things? And how much would change if we even got a second NZ based team?

 

[Rich102]

I have been calling for years for the end-of-season review be done by an Australian person or organisation. Somebody who knows something about the game and has preferably been critical of the club before.
You learn nothing from your mates; it's your critics who give you the real truth.

Still, same old same old. Results; same old same old.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

That reminds me of the bungled interchange in 1995. From what I remember the club 100% blamed the media for bringing that bungle to everyone's attention, so the subsequent loss of competition points was also 100% the medias fault. From what you're saying, that initial reaction has stuck as the default position decades later, which is a wee bit scary.

You bring up a good point about the relationship with Sky as well. It's all far too cosy. Even when our so-called experts try to say something critical it's all wrapped up in the nicest possible way.

I wonder if the other one-club towns & regions get the same sort of things? And how much would change if we even got a second NZ based team?

I was only 12 so I don't remember that. That suggests the media should be on your side, which is 100% wrong. They shouldn't write shit and be so aloof they can write anything they want to sell papers, but nor should they be cosy. If that's the arrangement, we may as well just let the club write everything.

That's totally the default position. The club loved Allen Mac because he was a bit of a guardian of their message in the media. When Ivan spoke, Allen would take the first 6-7 questions for himself, they'd be real soft hitting sort of ones. That would take 10-15 minutes, a couple of people might get one themselves then it was 'Ivan's time is over'. And if there was a really obvious news angle with a player, Mac would do the same in an all-in. And Allen would give you the eye if you got controversial too.

The Sky thing is way too cosy. The players are too close. We get an abysmal coverage. Commentators who can't speak properly and ones who won't speak critically.

I thought about that too. I think Brisbane is very similar to us. There's probably even more of a cone of silence over there. NQ, no idea. Titans, no one cares. Melbourne, the media as a whole doesn't really care, but they do like to share in the reflected glory when they're winning. Everyone in Melbourne is a Storm fan when they're winning. I think you have to have that big market like Sydney where the media can operate freely without the fear of being shut down. Look at the US. Those professional teams over there can't control the message because the media is too big - so they actively embrace it.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I have been calling for years for the end-of-season review be done by an Australian person or organisation. Somebody who knows something about the game and has preferably been critical of the club before.
You learn nothing from your mates; it's your critics who give you the real truth.

Still, same old same old. Results; same old same old.

Would that result in long-term change though? It might identify what needs to change, but I don't know if it would effect change. But you are right, we do need someone from the outside in to identify the shit that needs to change...but that needs to go hand-in-hand with the right people in the organisation to make it change.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

I was only 12 so I don't remember that. That suggests the media should be on your side, which is 100% wrong. They shouldn't write shit and be so aloof they can write anything they want to sell papers, but nor should they be cosy. If that's the arrangement, we may as well just let the club write everything.

That's totally the default position. The club loved Allen Mac because he was a bit of a guardian of their message in the media. When Ivan spoke, Allen would take the first 6-7 questions for himself, they'd be real soft hitting sort of ones. That would take 10-15 minutes, a couple of people might get one themselves then it was 'Ivan's time is over'. And if there was a really obvious news angle with a player, Mac would do the same in an all-in. And Allen would give you the eye if you got controversial too.

The Sky thing is way too cosy. The players are too close. We get an abysmal coverage. Commentators who can't speak properly and ones who won't speak critically.

I thought about that too. I think Brisbane is very similar to us. There's probably even more of a cone of silence over there. NQ, no idea. Titans, no one cares. Melbourne, the media as a whole doesn't really care, but they do like to share in the reflected glory when they're winning. Everyone in Melbourne is a Storm fan when they're winning. I think you have to have that big market like Sydney where the media can operate freely without the fear of being shut down. Look at the US. Those professional teams over there can't control the message because the media is too big - so they actively embrace it.

Great post, we used to crack up listening to the League hour on telfers show listening to Mac make excuse after excuse

You are correct on Brisbane, I’m sure you’ve heard all the rumours about Lockyer over the years

 

[Matua]

I guess my unpopular opinion after reading the thread is that I actually like Allan Mac's reporting/commentating etc.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I guess my unpopular opinion after reading the thread is that I actually like Allan Mac's reporting/commentating etc.

I love Mac. He was my high school cricket coach. I spent time at his house, he would help wherever I asked. I absolutely loved him to death as a caller - incredibly well prepared, great turn of phrase and humour, knew the game in and out, and he had some strong views, some well considered strong views.

But he'd never articulate them if they were anti-Warriors. That was my only issue with the guy, if you'd call it that. He not only wasn't prepared to ask the hard questions, he'd actively stop other people doing so. The Warriors adored him for that.

Little story about Mac, he would watch every single game of every single round. Often twice, or more so in the case of the Warriors or teams the Warriors were about to play. He had them all on VCR. He was an absolute student of the game. Same with cricket.

 

[captainwarrior]

Really digging this thread, especially the stuff about NZ media. I’m over in Aus so don’t see/know as much about the content of the NZ media, and cause of that my unpopular opinion is more player based.

Probably a wildly unpopular opinion but I always thought that (given off field indiscretions aside of course) that Ivan really should’ve persisted with Faumuina as a 5/8, and that if they had done so he’d end up being the best 5/8 we ever had/produced. He always had the ball-playing ability and from the few games he played in the halves he had quite a good short kicking game too (from memory he set up the match winning try in the GF rematch in 03 with a grubber). Obviously it’s a massive if only but I always imagined what would’ve happened if we kept Ali for all of the 2000’s and had Sione at 6, and had them both on the left edge with Toopi and Meli, would’ve been unstoppable. Even read somewhere, in fact I think it was his book, that part of the reason he acted up and wanted out of the club was that Ivan had told him they wanted him at 6 and canned him from the position after he was suspended in round one. Whatever happened in the 04 off season really did cost the club a premiership imo, because if we could’ve kept them all in form it would’ve been something else

 

[LeagueNut]

They're playing a lot of "classic matches" on Sky at the moment and the 2003 end of season Kiwis / Kangaroos test has been getting some air time. Sione played a lot of that game in the halves and had an absolute stinker IMO - almost every time he got the ball he'd just chuck it away trying for a magic offload and it never came off. It was like having a washing machine as a halfback, you'd never know which way the ball would come out.

If he'd had a coach that could get his mental state in the right place I think he could have been anything - something like a Wayne Bennett / Jamie Soward combo. Ivan seems to be that type of coach as well but '06 was probably a bit early in his coaching career for that sort of challenge.

 

[WellsNZ]

Great post but I don't think it'll be too unpopular. I think it's a great point on the Herald too, SKY could certainly also be accused of being in bed with the Warriors and failing to hold them to account. Same for Radio Sport, certainly back in the Allen Mac days. Although Telfer could give them a decent going over, even if he really had NFI about the game.

I worked in the media from 06-11 (yep, I'm the reason for the golden years) and you couldn't go too hard at the Warriors. They'd just cut you off. If you wrote something defamatory, you'd either potentially lose access or you'd be made to feel very very unwelcome. It was a small group of people so you'd always stick out if you tried to go too hard. That's completely different in Sydney. And the issue with SKY commentators is that they're way too close. All of them are Warriors fans, and most of them either former Warriors, former coaches or 'buddies' with players and staff. Those are the people that supposedly should be giving us the critical analysis but they're too close. Again, not an issue in Sydney as their experts have affiliation to one club at best and feel free to go hard on the rest. Plus they know little about us over here, as evidenced by the fact we hear 'big Warriors forwards' year upon year.

So yeah, I think you're 100% right. There's probably not enough pressure on us to win premierships. Hell, I love Ivan to pieces and we never really looked like winning a premiership under him. But he did more than enough in this environment.

This was always the irony with SJ thinking he had it so tough here hidden behind Union in the news and a media that was mainly interested in sucking him off, then wanting to go to Sydney.

I see a lot of fans who reinforce this as well.

Not on here, but other forums, Facebook groups etc, if you say anything critical suddenly it's you're not a true fan, you're a hater etc.

The exception being the occasional dedicated horse to be flogged, usually whatever Aussie import is on the team.

Think how many people you'll still see coming along talking about how we should have never let guys Locke or Konnie go. Basically every local boy we have is great and has been forever. We've always got the team to win.

I feel like other fan groups are much more demanding of success whereas the Warriors fans are more it's OK the boys are doing their best or nah the f**king Aussies are holding us down we'll never win anyway.

 

[Cold Roses]

I have been calling for years for the end-of-season review be done by an Australian person or organisation. Somebody who knows something about the game and has preferably been critical of the club before.
You learn nothing from your mates; it's your critics who give you the real truth.

Still, same old same old. Results; same old same old.

I can’t help but think the reason Brian Smith disappeared so quickly is because he was too abrasive for the club. Someone as experienced as he is would see right through the bullshit attitudes, and I suspect his opinions on what needs to change would have rocked the boat a fair bit.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

This was always the irony with SJ thinking he had it so tough here hidden behind Union in the news and a media that was mainly interested in sucking him off, then wanting to go to Sydney.

I see a lot of fans who reinforce this as well.

Not on here, but other forums, Facebook groups etc, if you say anything critical suddenly it's you're not a true fan, you're a hater etc.

The exception being the occasional dedicated horse to be flogged, usually whatever Aussie import is on the team.

Think how many people you'll still see coming along talking about how we should have never let guys Locke or Konnie go. Basically every local boy we have is great and has been forever. We've always got the team to win.

I feel like other fan groups are much more demanding of success whereas the Warriors fans are more it's OK the boys are doing their best or nah the f**king Aussies are holding us down we'll never win anyway.

Yeah I agree. SJ really didn't have it bad. The thing that he bristled at most was Fittler's comments, and that had nothing to do with us here. The NZ media just reported it verbatim. The talking heads on SKY never went at him. The media didn't go at him personally. I heard rumours on here that his training efforts were very average but you never read that anywhere else. You're right, he was largely sucked off.

That's another reason I reckon our team never gets better. We have a massive fan base who thinks keeping the faith is never saying anything critical. Look at EPL in England - those fans love their side like no other, but they'll boo and abuse (going too far, but still) if it's seen the players or staff aren't putting in. It's been nine years since we won a playoff game, yet you don't hear the media giving too much of a shit. Or the fans making themselves heard.

Kevin Locke is a great example. Apart from the stuff that ended up in court, none of what Kevin did off-field ended up in the papers or in the media. But he was a mess, and it greatly affected his ability to play for the Warriors. He's seen as some sort of messiah in our fan base, even though if he was a pro he'd probably still be wearing the No.1. Micheal Luck nailed it with the magic beans comment.