Wellington SHOULD be the next NRL team.

[The Great Dane]

so australia can shrink by two teams and still the competition will be doing well?

especially if we expand back to perth the ARU will have just done all the hard work for us.

the current Sanzar TV deal (tests, Super 15 etc) is worth HALF the current NRL TV deal (ours includes everything as well).

thats the simple reality.

end of the day if you really want to defend union so badly theres a thread on TFC discussing this very topic this is going away too far from the thread material.

to get this back on topic, the NRL can still expand to Brisbane x 2, Perth, PNG, Wellington, central coast and adelaide.

we have a lot of room to grow TV viewers and ratings, we havent scratched the surface yet.

I had a big elaborate post that refuted some of your claims, but unfortunately I accidentally deleted it.

So I'll give you a short answer instead of spending another hour rewriting my post.

Basically I'm not defending RU per se I'm just calling unnecessary hostility and BS when I see it.

People have complained about the way that RU has treated RL for a hundred years, yet still in the one place that the roles have been reversed and RL is in the position of power, RL fans teat RU the exact same way that they treat us in other places, by down playing their achievements, treating them and their fans like second class citizens, etc. I find this incredibly hypocritical and completely unnecessary.

I also find it extremely disheartening that over one hundred years after the events that started the split and the hostilities we are still fighting each other, even though no one that was alive at the time and lived through the events is still alive!

I also find it astonishing that because of these now completely insignificant differences that have been irreverent for over 80 years now that RU and RL aren't working together to spread and maintain both sports, the spread and power of both sports would be so much larger if we worked together, but instead we allow petty differences and bigotry reign supreme.

 

[BuffaloRules]

What the hell are you on about, 90% of what you said here doesn't make sense!!

You fail to take into account that Super Rugby has more then one major TV rights deals that it has to sell, i.e. they sell their rights to more broadcasters then just the ones here in Australia, and in most cases for lot more then they sell them here for.

You fail to take into account that Super Rugby has more then one major stakeholder like the NRL and actually has three in the NZRU, the SARU and the ARU, only one of which is up sh!t creek without a paddle.

You talk about the 5 teams (I assume you mean teams instead of conferences, otherwise your worse off then I thought) here in Australia as if they are the be all and end all for Super Rugby, news flash the Australian conference is not Super Rugby's most important conference strategically or otherwise! In fact they could lose it completely with few consequences business wise.

And finally you fail to realise that they have a bigger international market to sell their product to and more interest from new (huge profitable) international markets then the NRL could ever hope to have.

.

Buy yourself a clue!

News Ltd buy the rights collectively for the three SANZAR countries, and combined they are a long way behind the NRL's deal!

NZ is a country of 4 million people and the game in SA is followed by the (white) minority. Also SA is not without its problems economically.

Outside the News Ltd Deal that goes back to the 3 SANZAR countries, I challenge you to provide a link that shows any TV deal that returns a meaningful income back to SANZAR for super 15 and Tri nations.

 

[BuffaloRules]

"Accidently deleted" yet somehow I managed to quote it? :sarcasm:

 

[The Great Dane]

"Accidently deleted" yet somehow I managed to quote it? :sarcasm:

I was talking about another post that is in reply to georgesnmith's reply to the post you just replied to, i.e. a completely different post that I had written up and accidentally deleted before I could post it.

Buy yourself a clue!

News Ltd buy the rights collectively for the three SANZAR countries, and combined they are a long way behind the NRL's deal!

NZ is a country of 4 million people and the game in SA is followed by the (white) minority. Also SA is not without its problems economically.

Outside the News Ltd Deal that goes back to the 3 SANZAR countries, I challenge you to provide a link that shows any TV deal that returns a meaningful income back to SANZAR for super 15 and Tri nations.

Even though we have gotten stuck on the value of their broadcasting rights and they are not central to my argument in any way shape or form, I did have a little look anyway just out of interest. Here's the best link I could find for list of broadcasters.

Try as I might I can't find any numbers for the value of these deals apart from the deal that News and Multichoice have with SANZA which was worth US$437m, which BTW you were right about, it was a bulk deal for all three NZ, SA and Aus, which is a geniused way to sell the rights as it basically gives the tree main groups interested in the rights in your three main markets a free pass to bully you into a bad deal, but whatever.

I'd imagine that given the shear quantity of deals that it would bring the combined value of the broadcasting rights up by a fair amount and if the newspapers are to be believed some of them are relatively lucrative, though nowhere near as large as their deal with News/Multichoice.

 

[Perth Red]

The day RU in Australia becomes the 5th tier code behind netball can't come quick enough for me, I'll bury the hatchet, right in the scum unions head. For all the bias, atrocities and under mining of the game I love they can go and get faked.

 

[reanimate]

People have complained about the way that RU has treated RL for a hundred years, yet still in the one place that the roles have been reversed and RL is in the position of power, RL fans teat RU the exact same way that they treat us in other places, by down playing their achievements, treating them and their fans like second class citizens, etc. I find this incredibly hypocritical and completely unnecessary.

If they were in the position we were in right now, they wouldn't hesitate for a second to stick the boot in, they don't deserve anything less from us.

 

[georgesnmith]

I had a big elaborate post that refuted some of your claims, but unfortunately I accidentally deleted it.

So I'll give you a short answer instead of spending another hour rewriting my post.

Basically I'm not defending RU per se I'm just calling unnecessary hostility and BS when I see it.

People have complained about the way that RU has treated RL for a hundred years, yet still in the one place that the roles have been reversed and RL is in the position of power, RL fans teat RU the exact same way that they treat us in other places, by down playing their achievements, treating them and their fans like second class citizens, etc. I find this incredibly hypocritical and completely unnecessary.

I also find it extremely disheartening that over one hundred years after the events that started the split and the hostilities we are still fighting each other, even though no one that was alive at the time and lived through the events is still alive!

I also find it astonishing that because of these now completely insignificant differences that have been irreverent for over 80 years now that RU and RL aren't working together to spread and maintain both sports, the spread and power of both sports would be so much larger if we worked together, but instead we allow petty differences and bigotry reign supreme.

when RL starts banning players from playing union, when RL gets union banned in france, when RL has the history of RU then sure ill agree.

in 1920 when the QRU had gone broke, harry sunderland, boss of the QRL set up benefit matches to help union get re-established again.

compare that to the Vichy banning of RL instiagted by RU.

sorry but RUs history is terrible. and ill gladly put my hand up as saying im thoroughly enjoying it seeing it smashed into the curbside!

the ARLC should manage its expansion in australia and NZ to marginalise RU as much as possible.

 

[georgesnmith]

Buy yourself a clue!

News Ltd buy the rights collectively for the three SANZAR countries, and combined they are a long way behind the NRL's deal!

NZ is a country of 4 million people and the game in SA is followed by the (white) minority. Also SA is not without its problems economically.

Outside the News Ltd Deal that goes back to the 3 SANZAR countries, I challenge you to provide a link that shows any TV deal that returns a meaningful income back to SANZAR for super 15 and Tri nations.

spot on.

and im pretty sure the Sanzar deal also includes the local competitions in SA (Currie Cup) and NZ one as well.

 

[georgesnmith]

The day RU in Australia becomes the 5th tier code behind netball can't come quick enough for me, I'll bury the hatchet, right in the scum unions head. For all the bias, atrocities and under mining of the game I love they can go and get faked.

:lol:

 

[BuffaloRules]

I was talking about another post that is in reply to georgesnmith's reply to the post you just replied to, i.e. a completely different post that I had written up and accidentally deleted before I could post it.



Even though we have gotten stuck on the value of their broadcasting rights and they are not central to my argument in any way shape or form, I did have a little look anyway just out of interest. Here's the best link I could find for list of broadcasters.

Try as I might I can't find any numbers for the value of these deals apart from the deal that News and Multichoice have with SANZA which was worth US$437m, which BTW you were right about, it was a bulk deal for all three NZ, SA and Aus, which is a geniused way to sell the rights as it basically gives the tree main groups interested in the rights in your three main markets a free pass to bully you into a bad deal, but whatever.

I'd imagine that given the shear quantity of deals that it would bring the combined value of the broadcasting rights up by a fair amount and if the newspapers are to be believed some of them are relatively lucrative, though nowhere near as large as their deal with News/Multichoice.

Here is a similar list that the NRL puts out with their global reach... AFL has similar

http://www.nrl.com/AbouttheGame/Bro...rnationalBroadcaster/tabid/10443/Default.aspx

I'm not naive enough to think that the NRL are collecting any money outside Aust & NZ, and perhaps a very modest amount in the UK...

Surely you dont think that Latin America and the Middle East are going to pay anything to show Super 15 Union do you? What would the local interest be? How could they ever recover any income?

Cable sports networks these days have multiple channels with a lot of programming to fill....

I'm sure that the international rights are given away for nix by the sporting bodies to help get some interest overseas... it cant hurt right?

I doubt that the NFL is receiving anything for their games to be shown over here on One, let alone the English & French Domestic Rugby to be shown over here to minute auduences in the middle of the night....

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Sorry, to keep this off topic, but youve got me interested. So, i was wondering.....

In terms of keeping Union in Australia as lowly as possible (so it may eventually die here), do you think it is better that they keep their premier Australian comp the S15 or have those franchises fold and leave them with a small domestic comp??

The S15 is reasonably shit; generic and largely unloved teams, no real derby matches or rivalries and they lose money hand over fist.
But a new domestic comp would have very little prior support, would not generate much money and could be seen by fans as a new BBL gimic.

So what do you think?? In terms of Union shrivelling and dying, what is the better option.

 

[Knownothing]

The S15 is reasonably shit; generic and largely unloved teams, no real derby matches or rivalries and they lose money hand over fist.

It might be better to wait until the next broadcasting deal is announced before ordering the wreaths.

What is a "generic" team, incidentally?

 

[georgesnmith]

Sorry, to keep this off topic, but youve got me interested. So, i was wondering.....

In terms of keeping Union in Australia as lowly as possible (so it may eventually die here), do you think it is better that they keep their premier Australian comp the S15 or have those franchises fold and leave them with a small domestic comp??

The S15 is reasonably shit; generic and largely unloved teams, no real derby matches or rivalries and they lose money hand over fist.
But a new domestic comp would have very little prior support, would not generate much money and could be seen by fans as a new BBL gimic.

So what do you think?? In terms of Union shrivelling and dying, what is the better option.

i already think union is pretty much dead here they are just working out what level of spending they can afford going forward. union at best will occupy a small nieche market here, how small is up to them in their battle with the A League. Perhaps union will move to summer as well feeling theres more market there. Right now they are getting absolutely belted. Ratings are awful, crowds are down big time and most of the S15 sides are losing millions and the ARU dont have the funds to keep them going for longer

if they go back to 3 Super 15 sides and leave PErth for us ill be very happy

either way its not a matter of competing with the big sports anymore, its whether they can compete with soccer, which right now they cant. soccer has blitzed past them.

each week the nrl is getting around 4.5 million viewers on TV. then theres 12 million for origin plus any rep stuff we have.

if the ARLC wanted to hasten's union demise they can do a couple of things :

1. put a popular club game against the bledisloe in australia and offer really cheap tickets.
2. make All blacks and wallabies exempt from the salary cap
3. expand into Wellington

 

[Knownothing]

if the ARLC wanted to hasten's union demise they can do a couple of things :

1. put a popular club game against the bledisloe in australia and offer really cheap tickets.
2. make All blacks and wallabies exempt from the salary cap
3. expand into Wellington

1. You could put the Second Coming up against a Bledisloe here and it would still sell out.

2. Every current All Black, and most current Wallabies, could earn two or more times what they do know if they went to play in France. They don't, because they are motivated to represent their country, which is apparently worth more than money.

3. I do not think that would affect anything much, it would weaken the competition and split New Zealand support.

 

[georgesnmith]

1. You could put the Second Coming up against a Bledisloe here and it would still sell out.

2. Every current All Black, and most current Wallabies, could earn two or more times what they do know if they went to play in France. They don't, because they are motivated to represent their country, which is apparently worth more than money.

3. I do not think that would affect anything much, it would weaken the competition and split New Zealand support.

1. talked about australia.

2. if they go to france they cant play for the all blacks or wallabies

 

[The Great Dane]

when RL starts banning players from playing union, when RL gets union banned in france, when RL has the history of RU then sure ill agree.

in 1920 when the QRU had gone broke, harry sunderland, boss of the QRL set up benefit matches to help union get re-established again.

compare that to the Vichy banning of RL instiagted by RU.

sorry but RUs history is terrible. and ill gladly put my hand up as saying im thoroughly enjoying it seeing it smashed into the curbside!

the ARLC should manage its expansion in australia and NZ to marginalise RU as much as possible.

So the they should pay for the sins of their fathers basically!?

The fact that there are/were lots of ignorant people in RU who where trained to hate RL is not a good reason to stick the boot in as RU dies in Australia and potentially disenfranchise millions of potential fans from all over the world, especially when showing them compassion and treating them better then they ever saw fit to treat us could be at our advantage.

I know it's cliched, but it's true that two wrongs don't make a right.

It might be better to wait until the next broadcasting deal is announced before ordering the wreaths.

Don't bother they're too bitter to see past their feelings.

What is a "generic" team, incidentally?

Yes what is a "generic team" and what makes the Super Rugby teams generic Hello, I'm The Doctor?

I'd never class the Brumbies as generic (or unloved for that matter), I mean for one thing their name Brumbies actually has historical significance to the ACT and actually means something to the people of Canberra, where's the name Raiders before 1989 didn't have any historical significance to the ACT and didn't mean anything to the people Canberra.

Also the Brumbies can claim something that the Raiders will never ever truly be able to claim, they've represented Canberra and done everything in the best interests of Canberra Rugby since day one!
Unlike the Raiders who for their fist 7-8 years really represented Queanbeyan more then their namesake Canberra, and have always treated RL in the ACT as an inconvenience that they have to put up with, while holding RL in country NSW around Canberra and the ACT as their main interest.

So tell me again how the Super Rugby clubs are generic and unloved!

This is coming from a person who holds the Raiders as his first team and sporting interest.

That's all I'm saying on these subjects for now.

 

[georgesnmith]

So the they should pay for the sins of their fathers basically!?

The fact that there are/were lots of ignorant people in RU who where trained to hate RL is not a good reason to stick the boot in as RU dies in Australia and potentially disenfranchise millions of potential fans from all over the world, especially when showing them compassion and treating them better then they ever saw fit to treat us could be at our advantage.

any person who knows the history of league and union has to hate it

anyone that knows the history and doesnt hate union is a union fan.

whats happening to union now is really enjoyable. ill be really happy when the ARU killed off Super 15 teams.

im hoping its the brumbies and perth teams.

big benefit to league if this were to happen, raiders crowds would go back to 15,000 - 20,000 and a perth league team would be getting 20,000 from inception

and if it wasnt for the Super League the Brumbies would never have gotten anywhere

just lucky i guess

 

[The Great Dane]

im hoping its the brumbies and perth teams.

big benefit to league if this were to happen, raiders crowds would go back to 15,000 - 20,000 and a perth league team would be getting 20,000 from inception

and if it wasnt for the Super League the Brumbies would never have gotten anywhere

just lucky i guess

I was planning on not commenting on this discussion anymore while it followed this path, but these claims need to be addressed.

Firstly the Brumbies impact on Raiders crowds (and vice versa) is so minute that it is negligible, Brumbies and Raiders fans are either already fans of the other or are not interested in the other at all and wouldn't support the other even if their preferred team folded.

Apart from in the case of scheduling mistakes that force people choose one or the other which can (in a worst case scenario) effect the attendance of one or the other by about a thousand-two thousand depending on which team's more successful at the time, the impact that both teams have on the other is literally in the low hundreds. So removing one would not see a large increase in the others attendance.

The only way that Raiders crowds are going to rise back to 15-20 thousand on a regular basis is if the Raiders start to listen to their fans again (instead of bagging us out, taking us for granted and marginalizing us at every chance) and/or the Raiders start to be successful again like in the 90's.

As for the Brumbies only being reasonably successful because of the SuperLeague war, well no that's totally incorrect.

There had been a healthy RU culture in Canberra long before the Raiders came around, just as before the Raiders came around there was a healthy AFL culture, but unlike the AFL culture the RU culture didn't wilt after the Raiders came into existence mainly because of the strong private school education system in Canberra (such as schools like ST. Edmund's where many of the Raiders greats played RU long before they played league) forcing their students to play RU, but also in no small part due to really strong, successful and wealthy RU clubs like the Tuggeranong Vikings.

The Brumbies would have a healthy following whether or not the SuperLeague war happened or not, to say otherwise is really to not have a clue about Canberra's sporting history or trends.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Yes what is a "generic team" and what makes the Super Rugby teams generic Hello, I'm The Doctor?

(First of all ill say that i didnt have the Brumbies in mind when i said this; id probably place them as an exception.)

I class "generic" and any brand that goes well out of its way to be inoffensive.

Dont get me wrong, i think sport should be inclusive and all that shit, but teams within a competition should be as device as possible (within reason. I cant say im fond of watching riots in team colours.)

Think about the NSW Warratahs; they claim to represent an area the size of France, yet they cannot even make it out to Western Sydney. The idea behind their name is that they have the image of representing all of the 7million New South Welshmen, but do you honestly think someone from Wagga or Bathurst give one single shit about this team just because they have "NSW" on their letterhead.

I call a team generic when they latch onto existing parochialism and just exploit that for support. (NSW somethings, Queensland somethingesles, GREATER Western Sydney F*ck latte sipping Easties.... "hey your from there, so are we, im sensing a connection here....")

I would rather see a team with their own identity come in and say "this is who we are, this is why we are great, this is why you should want to be part of it". They are something new, unique and they actually add to the culture.

 

[oikee]

When the NRL expands, and fixes the game and stops trying to kill itself, the rest will take care of itself.

The way the NRL and clubs have been run is why rugby league is still a backward code even now, a new century.
You only need to look at all the Sydney clubs still having huge problems. Brisbane still only has one team.
No Perth, no second team in NZ where huge growth could be made.

If come 2017 - 2018 this code is not absolutely thriving, then Dave Smith should be sacked and sent home, the code should shut down, and we all should support union, because if you think i will ever support the other codes, no, never.
I tried and i failed, to get excited.

The code now has everything possibly going for it, huge support, joined forces with touch to give us over 1 million participates, huge cash flow, confidence and businessmen.

So far they have made so many mistakes with planning games, stadiums and locking out supporters and other states, you would think amateurs are running the code.
I have long said our marketing department needs a total clean-out. They have lost sight of the game and what might work or not, they are now guessing and making all the wrong calls.

Monday night needs to be scrapped as well. The code is going backwards in crowd averages and viewing figures because of weak teams on Monday night footy.
It is not working, and the game needs to wake-up and realise this, before it kills off another 20 thousand members.