Who would you rather?

[Hurriflatch]

Parramatta don't play a traditional attacking style in the sense that #9 is dummy half passing to either #6, #7 or #13 and they spread the ball out to #3, #4, #5 and #2 with #1 chiming into the backline.

In fact Parra have very rarely played this way. 2001 was the closet to this but even then was diffrent due to the amount of dumym half running Drew and Marsh did.

I've said this many times
Morris plays more of a five-eighth role with Dykes a halfback role and then Wagon & Widders/O'Dwyer/Muspratt etc as 2 locks.

Don't think of Wagon as a five-eighth because he is not John Morris is the Eels five-eighth he just happens to wear jersey number 9.

Now in saying that.....

I do agree that Parra need another attacking player out there if Burt plays more of a Lockyer/Campbell type role or if one of our 2 locks is dropped for an attacking player like Thorman or Witt is debateable.

On to the Petersen/Langi problem.

Anyone who has read more then 5 of my posts would see that I'm a big Petersen fan, he isn't the world's best defender but Langi is also weak defensivly and having 2 defensivly weak players next to each other is asking for trouble. Petersen at times needs to defend both the centre and wing on his side and he is more prone to try and take the centre then the winger in most of the tries that have been let in on Petersen's side scored by the winger had Petersen stayed on his man the centre would problably have scored.

Last year Petersen had Vaealiki inside him who he could trust a lot more in defense so while he still made some errors in reading the defense the chances of the team scoring were limited as he had a strong defender next to him.

When Ash Graham comes back who is another strong defender you will find that there are a lot fewer defensive mis-reads on Petersen's side of the field.

Grothe is also prone to mis read in defense while he has improved 150% from his 1st stint at Parra I've seen a couple of times this year when Grothe has let his winger past him but like Petersen last year Grothe had Vaealiki with him to prevent any major problems and Grothe has the added avantage of more speed then Petersen (but Grothe has more speed then 95% of players in the world) so that limited it even more.

There is 1 soultion for both above problems until Graham gets back into 1st grade side.

Play Wagon in centres next to Petersen and then play either Witt or Thorman in the halves with Dykes.

It gives the Eels 3 main attacking options in Dykes, Morris and Witt/Thorman

It gives Petersen a solid defender next to him

 

[Suitman]

That all makes much sense and would probably keep a lot of people happy around here.

I suppose, if Wagon HAS to be in the backline, then centre it should be.
I'd probably accept that as well.
At least then both centres would see some ball.

Suity

 

[Hollywood Jesus]

And before you play the same broken record HJ, this is NOT a "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE" card. You always seem to forget, I want the SAME success as you do.

Suity

Sorry mate, but that's just a get out of jail free card for a get out of jail free card

Just because you have wisened up to the fact that I have wisened up to you, doesn't change the situation

I can see it when we win the comp..............

I ALWAYS had faith that we we would go all the way!

8)

 

[Suitman]

And before you play the same broken record HJ, this is NOT a "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE" card. You always seem to forget, I want the SAME success as you do.

Suity

Sorry mate, but that's just a get out of jail free card for a get out of jail free card

Just because you have wisened up to the fact that I have wisened up to you, doesn't change the situation

I can see it when we win the comp..............

I ALWAYS had faith that we we would go all the way!

8)

Not me mate.

I have NO problem admitting if I am wrong or if I have made a mistake.
Not like some around here.

It would be more like.......

"I know I said ................................
but I am pleased to say I was wrong."

Funny thing is, there's not much chance I'll have to say it under the present reign.

Suity

 

[Eelementary]

Not at the moment Suity. We are winning more than losing but not by much and not against top-ranked sides. Hopefully a couple of more wins will raise the confidence stakes which should help the team gel a little better. That is what we are missing, cohesion, not ball-players. 2001 was not without its hiccups early-on but the side began to gel after about 7-8 weeks and the rest is history. I say give it another two weeks and see how we run against the cowboys and storm. Both sides can cause plenty of probs so it should be a good guide.

Fair enough, I accept that.

But you have said" lets give then another two weeks.
I'll give them another 4 or 5. I'm quite happy to do that.
But my patience is wearing thin when I can see no REAL improvement over the last 30 months.

We'll see what is happening in July, and I'll be happy to say so if things have improved.
And before you play the same broken record HJ, this is NOT a "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE" card. You always seem to forget, I want the SAME success as you do.

Suity

But Suity:

* Last year, we had terrible trouble getting out of our own half and our forwards struggled to go forward; this year after some decent signings and promotions (Tsoulos, Armit, etc.) we have considerably less trouble

* Dykes is fit

* We beat Brisbane in Brisbane [a team nobody has yet defeated, not even the Roosters, who seem to be hailed as the benchmark] and the Knights playing very ordinary football; in the past 30 months, we would not have won those games unless we were 100% on top of our game

* When our backline is fit, we have an explosive backine [in terms of attack]; Grothe, Vaealiki, Petersen, Burt and Langi (or Graham) are all great attacking players

* We have looked good enough to win every match we've played this season (barring round 1), but just haven't converted our chances well enough; 30 months ago I don't think we would have been capable of nearly beating Canberra in Canberra


Things are slowly but surely changing. It can only get better - once our team gels and once we get an established team and cut down the dumb errors and dumb penalties, we'll be right.

If not this year, then it is looking bright for the future.

 

[Suitman]

Not at the moment Suity. We are winning more than losing but not by much and not against top-ranked sides. Hopefully a couple of more wins will raise the confidence stakes which should help the team gel a little better. That is what we are missing, cohesion, not ball-players. 2001 was not without its hiccups early-on but the side began to gel after about 7-8 weeks and the rest is history. I say give it another two weeks and see how we run against the cowboys and storm. Both sides can cause plenty of probs so it should be a good guide.

Fair enough, I accept that.

But you have said" lets give then another two weeks.
I'll give them another 4 or 5. I'm quite happy to do that.
But my patience is wearing thin when I can see no REAL improvement over the last 30 months.

We'll see what is happening in July, and I'll be happy to say so if things have improved.
And before you play the same broken record HJ, this is NOT a "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE" card. You always seem to forget, I want the SAME success as you do.

Suity

But Suity:

* Last year, we had terrible trouble getting out of our own half and our forwards struggled to go forward; this year after some decent signings and promotions (Tsoulos, Armit, etc.) we have considerably less trouble

* Dykes is fit

* We beat Brisbane in Brisbane [a team nobody has yet defeated, not even the Roosters, who seem to be hailed as the benchmark] and the Knights playing very ordinary football; in the past 30 months, we would not have won those games unless we were 100% on top of our game

* When our backline is fit, we have an explosive backine [in terms of attack]; Grothe, Vaealiki, Petersen, Burt and Langi (or Graham) are all great attacking players

* We have looked good enough to win every match we've played this season (barring round 1), but just haven't converted our chances well enough; 30 months ago I don't think we would have been capable of nearly beating Canberra in Canberra


Things are slowly but surely changing. It can only get better - once our team gels and once we get an established team and cut down the dumb errors and dumb penalties, we'll be right.

If not this year, then it is looking bright for the future.

I know that quoting your quote that quotes my quote makes this a long thread, but I need to reference a few points of yours.

Firstly, agreed on your first point.
Considerably less trouble making yards.

Secondly - Dykes is a class act....I've always believed in that. Yes he is fit, and yes we are playing better due to that fact.

Thirdly - we always beat Brisbane in Brisbane and this fact astounds me.
Although it is an enormous acheivement, we do it every year regardless of our form, so I do not read too much into that win. That certainly isn't meant to demean the enormity of the win.

Explosive backline.....not quite. But certainly very talented, fast and full of potential. It is a shame it is spoilt by a non distributer at 5/8th

I disagree that we have looked good enough to win every match this season.
We haven't....and far from it. Thats what frustrates me as we have so much more talent than what we are displaying. We didn't even look decent when we won in Brisbane.

Things are slowly but surely changing. Are they really?
Then you go on to say "It can only get better"
Does that mean it can't get any worse?

Cut down on dumb errors and dumb penalties??
I would have thought that after 7 years and a bit, that the coaching staff would have instilled a culture that was on top of that fact already.
Its called discipline.

I so much agree that it is looking bright for the future.

But it has done every year since 97.
And I can't say that things look any brighter this year than in 97.

I don't mean to sound pesimistic, but after 35 years, I've seen too many seasons like this. I'm just trying to be realistic.

Suity

Suity

 

[1eyedeel]

When it changes.
Cayless plays second receiver more than Wagon does he?? What is the point in that when we are up against second receivers like Lockyer, Barrett, Campbell, Fittler etc.........

I'd argue it makes more sense to play Wagon at 5/8 when you are playing against a classy second receiver because he is going to defend against a player like Lockyer much better a Witt or Thorman would. Just because we play an opposition whose creative force comes at second receiver doesn't mean we have to do the same and that's my point.

Quite often we'll have forwards take the ball up all five hit ups before the last. It's a low risk strategy (except when Micky V is having a shocker) but it has shown time and again this year that we can score points via the likes of a Cayless offload, Hindmarsh bust or a sharp dummy half run after the ruck has been opened up.

A team needs to play to its strengths and my argument is that's what we are doing right now because our strengths are our forwards.

Defence.....third worst in the league - and our backs are our glaring weakness?? Come on now.

&

So Wagon is 5/8th for his defence. Why do we have the third worst defensive record then. Something ain't working.

Where have we leaked most points? Misreads by the outside backs. I stand by my assertion that's where our weakness is .

Thats because there is no organised and practiced pattern of what to do in those situations. Refer to my comment on what happened before and after halftime in the Canberra game. The organisation was and generally is a shambles.

So organisation is a shambles and you want to confuse the play by adding another playmaker. If they can't get it right with one playmaker, how are they going to go with two. I think this is a key point. If some of the backs start to work up some combinations and the attack starts to flow a little better than it will strengthen the argument for a full-time second receiver. Until then, I think the current style of play will get us to the finals and that's what the first goal I want to see achieved this year.

If it is that imperative, why don't we just have a second receiver then?????

Because I think we'll win more games than we will lose with our current playing style. But when it isn't working and you've pointed out times that it hasn't, Smith needs a bench that can mix things up..

People seem to remember Witt's moments of individual brilliance and forget that for much of last season Parramatta was at sixes and sevens because of Witt's inability to direct traffic. This year Parramatta has looked like a well-oiled machine compared to last year. Who knows by the back end of the premiership, Thorman will have come to grips with the Australian game or Witt will have honed his game and it will make sense to have a full-time second receiver but neither player has consistently cut it up in Premier League and quite frankly still doesn't deserve a shot.

I've enjoyed you ripping a part my argument Suity, I guess in the end our points of view come down to whether the current style of play is going to get us to where we need to be come September. I think it will, you think it won't. I reckon in about five weeks we'll have a much clearer idea of who was right.

 

[Suitman]

1 eye

Much appreciate the way in which you responded.
It not even so much a contest as to who will be right or wrong, or win or lose.

Its a matter of getting us to where we want to be at the end of the season and in that respect, I think either tact will get us there.
I certainly understand where you are coming from and agree that what we are doing has been working and may continue to do so.
It is very conservative but thats fine.
I suppose I just see us with so much more talent than what we are displaying and I am just playing the devils advocate.

Ultimately, I hope we win the comp. Striving for just top 8 to me seems too defeatest.
Unless you are Souths. ;-)

Suity

 

[fish eel]

Striving for just top 8 to me seems too defeatest.

Can't win the comp if your not in the top 8 ;-)

 

[Suitman]

Striving for just top 8 to me seems too defeatest.

Can't win the comp if your not in the top 8 ;-)

Thanks for that Schnapper boy.

Suity

 

[fish eel]

The way I look us at the moment is that we have 8 very valuable points in the bank. We dropped 2 away to the Bulldogs and 2 away to the Raiders. Certainly will not be Robinson Crusoe on that score.

On the flip side, we got 2 against Newcastle, albeit minus Andrew Johns for half the match, but given their last 2 starts maybe they wont be such a push over without him. Also pinched 2 off the Broncos in Brisbane. OK we always win there but thats 2 points a lot of sides aren't going to get.

We dropped 2 at home last week against a side I think may surprise people.

And....26 rounds makes for a hell of a lot of footy. A real long way to go and we are in there fighting. If we have shocking run like last season, then we have 4 early wins to fall back on we didn't have last year. And, if we put 3 or 4 on the trot together, who knows?

I'd be very surprised if we miss the 8. I think top 6 is realistic. If we can be there or thereabouts with half a dozen games to go....who knows, may even jag a top 4 spot.

 

[Suitman]

I certainly see that scenario as realistic.

It is very acheivable. But it would be a lot easier if we weren't to toss away points that are handed to us on a platter. i.e. Cronulla.
If we want to compete with the big boys, those games should be givens.
When it comes to the crunch, I would HATE to look back and see a match like that having cost us dearly later in the season.

Suity

 

[fish eel]

When it comes to the crunch, I would HATE to look back and see a match like that having cost us dearly later in the season

Thats why having 8 points from some scratchy wins may be so valuable.

I also think after round 1 and Killers departure, we've done exceptionally well to be were we are....we could have easily fallen in a heap.

 

[The Colonel]

The main thing is we have eight more points from scratchy games early in the season that we didn't have last year........

 

[Suitman]

True.
Hopefully that will hold us good stead come the business end of the season.

Suity

P.S. Apologies for the cliches

 

[Eelementary]

Not at the moment Suity. We are winning more than losing but not by much and not against top-ranked sides. Hopefully a couple of more wins will raise the confidence stakes which should help the team gel a little better. That is what we are missing, cohesion, not ball-players. 2001 was not without its hiccups early-on but the side began to gel after about 7-8 weeks and the rest is history. I say give it another two weeks and see how we run against the cowboys and storm. Both sides can cause plenty of probs so it should be a good guide.

Fair enough, I accept that.

But you have said" lets give then another two weeks.
I'll give them another 4 or 5. I'm quite happy to do that.
But my patience is wearing thin when I can see no REAL improvement over the last 30 months.

We'll see what is happening in July, and I'll be happy to say so if things have improved.
And before you play the same broken record HJ, this is NOT a "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE" card. You always seem to forget, I want the SAME success as you do.

Suity

But Suity:

* Last year, we had terrible trouble getting out of our own half and our forwards struggled to go forward; this year after some decent signings and promotions (Tsoulos, Armit, etc.) we have considerably less trouble

* Dykes is fit

* We beat Brisbane in Brisbane [a team nobody has yet defeated, not even the Roosters, who seem to be hailed as the benchmark] and the Knights playing very ordinary football; in the past 30 months, we would not have won those games unless we were 100% on top of our game

* When our backline is fit, we have an explosive backine [in terms of attack]; Grothe, Vaealiki, Petersen, Burt and Langi (or Graham) are all great attacking players

* We have looked good enough to win every match we've played this season (barring round 1), but just haven't converted our chances well enough; 30 months ago I don't think we would have been capable of nearly beating Canberra in Canberra


Things are slowly but surely changing. It can only get better - once our team gels and once we get an established team and cut down the dumb errors and dumb penalties, we'll be right.

If not this year, then it is looking bright for the future.

I know that quoting your quote that quotes my quote makes this a long thread, but I need to reference a few points of yours.

Firstly, agreed on your first point.
Considerably less trouble making yards.

Secondly - Dykes is a class act....I've always believed in that. Yes he is fit, and yes we are playing better due to that fact.

Thirdly - we always beat Brisbane in Brisbane and this fact astounds me.
Although it is an enormous acheivement, we do it every year regardless of our form, so I do not read too much into that win. That certainly isn't meant to demean the enormity of the win.

Explosive backline.....not quite. But certainly very talented, fast and full of potential. It is a shame it is spoilt by a non distributer at 5/8th

I disagree that we have looked good enough to win every match this season.
We haven't....and far from it. Thats what frustrates me as we have so much more talent than what we are displaying. We didn't even look decent when we won in Brisbane.

Things are slowly but surely changing. Are they really?
Then you go on to say "It can only get better"
Does that mean it can't get any worse?

Cut down on dumb errors and dumb penalties??
I would have thought that after 7 years and a bit, that the coaching staff would have instilled a culture that was on top of that fact already.
Its called discipline.

I so much agree that it is looking bright for the future.

But it has done every year since 97.
And I can't say that things look any brighter this year than in 97.

I don't mean to sound pesimistic, but after 35 years, I've seen too many seasons like this. I'm just trying to be realistic.

Suity

Suity

Fair enough mate.

I know how frustrating it is - this team, on paper at least, is capable of GREAT ACHIEVEMENTS.

But things disturb me:

* every match we have had we have made dumb errors and given away idiotic penalties and thus given the opposition points. WHY are we not getting better?

* WHY are we STILL playing TWO UNCREATIVE LOCKS?


Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I am naive to think the future looks bright. But only time will tell.

And given the fact we have such talented juniors coming through our ranks, they will make an impact soon enough and the Parramatta Eels will once again blossom.

Or at least I hope so.