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Why does Sydney media hate rugby league?

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,857
I wonder how big an influencer the negative media in Sydney is on the popularity of NRL there? one of the striking things about the GF viewing figures annually is that huge difference between number of people in Melbourne watching AFL GF compared to number in Sydney watching NRL GF. A clear indication, alongside membership and attendance differences, that AFL is massively more popular in its home city than NRL. How much of this is media driven I wonder and what can the NRl do to address it?
 

sensesmaybenumbed

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
29,225
I wonder how big an influencer the negative media in Sydney is on the popularity of NRL there? one of the striking things about the GF viewing figures annually is that huge difference between number of people in Melbourne watching AFL GF compared to number in Sydney watching NRL GF. A clear indication, alongside membership and attendance differences, that AFL is massively more popular in its home city than NRL. How much of this is media driven I wonder and what can the NRl do to address it?


The fact that the vfl has managed to create the illusion of an all inclusive game despite the endless examples of racism that are carried out is a big part.

Rugby League, however, has working class roots and the separation of its fan base and that of a supposedly more affluent Rugby Union follower is deeply engrained north of the Murray. Imagine if the two Rugby codes had never diverged, and the changes in the game that were enacted in the 1890s and evolved over the next 120 odd years were universal, with no split.

The code would be enormous, with far less infighting and politicking to hobble itself.
Quite frankly, it's that split and the Superleague war that has given the VFL a stay of execution and a chance to survive. If these things had never occurred, the opportunities the VFL has needed would never have existed and it would not be in a position of roughly equal footing in this country, it would be miles behind. The idea that the growth of their game is due to shrewd management is false, they simply got lucky and didn't fumble a chance for once.
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,878
A clear indication, alongside membership and attendance differences, that AFL is massively more popular in its home city than NRL. How much of this is media driven I wonder and what can the NRl do to address it?

The main thing that the NRL needs to do and can do straight away is get on top of rules and adopt a philosophy that the rules should favour attacking football - especially more passing and less running/hit up strategy.

There is a direct correlation between points scoring and crowds in Rugby League as there is in NFL.

Defence has been on top since the wrestling tactics came in, try scoring has dropped and crowds have dropped when they should have risen with the increased revenue in the game.

The problem with defence being on top in league is even more exaggerated than in the NFL because defence is extremely 'vanilla' and boring in League compared to NFL - most non hard core league fan or sports fan who does not like league has not got the slightest interest in defence.

Furthermore every sports fan critic of the game I ever talk to raises the boring nature of hit up then kick as their main gripe with the game.

More passing, more points equals bigger TV and bigger crowds.
 
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taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
The main thing that the NRL needs to do and can do straight away is get on top of rules and adopt a philosophy that the rules should favour attacking football - especially more passing and less running/hit up strategy.

There is a direct correlation between points scoring and crowds in Rugby League as there is in NFL.

Defence has been on top since the wrestling tactics came in, try scoring has dropped and crowds have dropped when they should have risen with the increased revenue in the game.

The problem with defence being on top in league is even more exaggerated than in the NFL because defence is extremely 'vanilla' and boring in League compared to NFL - most none hard core league fan or sports fan who does not like league has not got the slightest interest in defence.

Furthermore every sports fan critic of the game I ever talk to raises the boring nature of hit up then kick as their main gripe with the game.

More passing, more points equals bigger TV and bigger crowds.


Agree,attacking rugby league with running the angles,chip and chase,backline flow in attack,run arounds ,cut outs,wingers at the end of a great backline movement.That's what most fans want and the way to drag in the outsiders.
Get back to true defence on one one,instead of the continual gang tackles.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
The main thing that the NRL needs to do and can do straight away is get on top of rules and adopt a philosophy that the rules should favour attacking football

You can be pretty certain that's one of the NRL's top goals - there used to be a lot of comparisons to the style played in 2005. They just haven't found a way forward yet.

My suggestion -- have a general 40 metre kick advantage rule - so a 10-50, 20-40, 30-30, 40-20, 50-10 - it's also a lot easier to check with the bunker now.

You won't see team kick it every set -- maybe once or twice a game. But the possibility of attacking teams kicking for the sidelines 30 metres behind the defensive line means defensive sides have to drop 1 or 2 players back to cover --- they don't have to mind you, but if they don't they run the risk of giving the attacking side a cheap forty metres.

So now you have this new rules in the game that gives attacking sides a possible extra set of tackles.

But you also have a scenario where the defensive line only has 11 or 12 players -- if they gang tackle, they risk opening up gaps in the line that the 13 player attack can exploit.

By giving the attacking side that slight advantage you'll see more creative play from teams coming out of their own half because that's where the defense is most vulnerable to the kick. You'd actually be wasting your advantage if you just took a simple straight run.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
I may be a layman,But I can never understand if a guy(who is a good kicker) takes a catch on the full in his in goal,can't if he has the space kick the hell out of the ball to the other end,where there is no one.Perhaps get a 0/50 and get a scrum,or have the defence running backwards to get the pill,well away from their previous attacking zone.
OK the opponents may well get the ball back,but it will be at their end.
I understand the quick tap is also OK,but the defence is set and the distance made minimal.
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,878
You can be pretty certain that's one of the NRL's top goals - there used to be a lot of comparisons to the style played in 2005. They just haven't found a way forward yet.

My suggestion -- have a general 40 metre kick advantage rule - so a 10-50, 20-40, 30-30, 40-20, 50-10 - it's also a lot easier to check with the bunker now.

But you also have a scenario where the defensive line only has 11 or 12 players -- if they gang tackle, they risk opening up gaps in the line that the 13 player attack can exploit.

By giving the attacking side that slight advantage you'll see more creative play from teams coming out of their own half because that's where the defense is most vulnerable to the kick. You'd actually be wasting your advantage if you just took a simple straight run.

Thats half my logic in arguing for 30/50 replacing the 40/20.

As you say the wingers need to drop back opening up the flanks for ball movement from inside a teams 30. I like 30 because if it is 40 that is probably going to reduce ball movement.

I admit at first glance the 20 metre touch finder makes the idea seem too easy. But I think with the wingers back they would be reasonably easy to defend and I also think it would be an awesome skill to see wingers have to develop (hustling to block those kicks).

That said I really like your idea.

The only thing I would suggest is it is obviously very difficult to succeed in achieving a 40 metre touch finder (there were 25 successful attempts all regular season. Thats one every 8 games). How about making it 30 metres???

That threat would be very real.
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,878
Agree,attacking rugby league with running the angles,chip and chase,backline flow in attack,run arounds ,cut outs,wingers at the end of a great backline movement.That's what most fans want and the way to drag in the outsiders.
Get back to true defence on one one,instead of the continual gang tackles.

The extinction of the 'chip & chase' is one of the biggest tragedy in the games recent history. The ten metre rule really ruined a lot of great play making and we need to have a good hard look at the post 10 metre rule rule book to bring that sort of stuff back.

Structure, wrestle, completions...they can all go to hell in my opinion.
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,878
I may be a layman,But I can never understand if a guy(who is a good kicker) takes a catch on the full in his in goal,can't if he has the space kick the hell out of the ball to the other end,where there is no one.Perhaps get a 0/50 and get a scrum,or have the defence running backwards to get the pill,well away from their previous attacking zone.

So you are suggesting a rule change where if you catch a bomb in goal and then kick for touch you get the scrum feed?

I like it. Should be considered.

What about extend it to if you catch it on the full anywhere inside your 20?

Players making plays.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
I may be a layman,But I can never understand if a guy(who is a good kicker) takes a catch on the full in his in goal,can't if he has the space kick the hell out of the ball to the other end,

If he did wouldn't he be giving the opposition (who would be more likely to catch it) another repeat set to attack, this time from about half way?

Thats half my logic in arguing for 30/50 replacing the 40/20.

As you say the wingers need to drop back opening up the flanks for ball movement from inside a teams 30. I like 30 because if it is 40 that is probably going to reduce ball movement.

I admit at first glance the 20 metre touch finder makes the idea seem too easy. But I think with the wingers back they would be reasonably easy to defend and I also think it would be an awesome skill to see wingers have to develop (hustling to block those kicks).

That said I really like your idea.

The only thing I would suggest is it is obviously very difficult to succeed in achieving a 40 metre touch finder (there were 25 successful attempts all regular season. Thats one every 8 games). How about making it 30 metres???

That threat would be very real.

Well I don't know about the 30/50 20 metre kick -- logistically those wingers are only back about 10 metres behind the defensive line so it's likely harder to place a precision kick in field within that smaller gap. It would most likely be even less frequent to occur than the 40-20.

When the 40-20 works it does so primarily because of kickers taking advantage of the open space and you probably wouldn't get that with a 30-50. Also, if as a result defenses don't believe the kick is a likely threat they won't drop those wingers back to cover it.

The first time I proposed this idea was around 2008 or 2009. In that time the number of 40-20 has decreased. Why? Well recently it's the dead-ball 20m return rule that has stifled kicking from within teams own halves. That's partly why you see those simple dummy runs.

That would change with a General 40 metres -- teams can kick from their own 10 metre line if they want to and be nowhere near the dead ball zone. My main contention though is that it has to be from your own half, go 40 metres and land in the opposition territory - so you couldn't kick from your own goal to your own 40 metre line, so hence 10-50, 20-40, 30-30, 40-20, 50-10 -- I'm not suggesting we call them that -- the General 40 is what I call it.

One of the problems with the 40-20 and for that matter a potential 30-50 is we know the lines where the kicker has to stand behind so the defensive sides can prepare for it.

With a General 40 metre defensive sides can't do that. It can occur anywhere from within an attacking team's own half - basically at any given moment - that's what forces those wingers to drop back because if they don't they run the risk of giving their opposition a free 40 metre advantage.

So like you said at the moment you see 25 successful 40-20 in 2016. A few years ago it was about 50. Under a General 40metre rule I'd estimate you'd see about 200-300 a season - about 1 or 2 a game -- they'd occur mainly when defenses have been ground down and are literally not on the ball.

Teams now have more attacking option - the General 40, the dummy runs and create back play from within the own half. There would be more tries and less wrestling as defensive can't afford to lock 3 or 4 players up in a tackle when they've only got an 11 man line. Obviously you'd see more broken back play and line breaks.

It would just give the game more variety.

The NRL are aware of this proposal, all I want to see them do is trial it during the All Stars. Once they see it tested at pro-level it will be adopted.
 
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taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
If he did wouldn't he be giving the opposition (who would be more likely to catch it) another repeat set to attack, this time from about half way?



Well I don't know about the 30/50 20 metre kick -- logistically those wingers are only back about 10 metres behind the defensive line so it's likely harder to place a precision kick in field within that smaller gap. It would most likely be even less frequent to occur than the 40-20.

When the 40-20 works it does so primarily because of kickers taking advantage of the open space and you probably wouldn't get that with a 30-50. Also, if as a result defenses don't believe the kick is a likely threat they won't drop those wingers back to cover it.

The first time I proposed this idea was around 2008 or 2009. In that time the number of 40-20 has decreased. Why? Well recently it's the dead-ball 20m return rule that has stifled kicking from within teams own halves. That's partly why you see those simple dummy runs.

That would change with a General 40 metres -- teams can kick from their own 10 metre line if they want to and be nowhere near the dead ball zone. My main contention though is that it has to be from your own half, go 40 metres and land in the opposition territory - so you couldn't kick from your own goal to your own 40 metre line, so hence 10-50, 20-40, 30-30, 40-20, 50-10 -- I'm not suggesting we call them that -- the General 40 is what I call it.

One of the problems with the 40-20 and for that matter a potential 30-50 is we know the lines where the kicker has to stand behind so the defensive sides can prepare for it.

With a General 40 metre defensive sides can't do that. It can occur anywhere from within an attacking team's own half - basically at any given moment - that's what forces those wingers to drop back because if they don't they run the risk of giving their opposition a free 40 metre advantage.

So like you said at the moment you see 25 successful 40-20 in 2016. A few years ago it was about 50. Under a General 40metre rule I'd estimate you'd see about 200-300 a season - about 1 or 2 a game -- they'd occur mainly when defenses have been ground down and are literally not on the ball.

Teams now have more attacking option - the General 40, the dummy runs and create back play from within the own half. There would be more tries and less wrestling as defensive can't afford to lock 3 or 4 players up in a tackle when they've only got an 11 man line. Obviously you'd see more broken back play and line breaks.

It would just give the game more variety.

The NRL are away of this proposal, all I want to see them do is trial it during the All Stars. Once they see it tested at pro-level it will be adopted.

Yes there is a 50/50 of that happening,but remember when bombs are kicked the attacking side is generally within the 30 metre zone of the defence's goal line .A good kicker could reef the ball even it was down the guts ,over the
defences heads,they would have to turn around ,lose ground race back and collect the ball.It could end up more than 50 ,meters away with wind assistance .OK they may get another 6 but well outside the original defender's territory.If by chance he got a 0-50 kick,that would knock the stuffing out of the attack.
A tired defence would feel it more,the turning around ,racing back to retrieve a pill ,is energy sapping.

I just work on the basis I have never seen it tried.
You catch it in your in goal,Tap restart.
You lose it or knock it over the line, goal line drop out.In both cases you are on at best ,your side of the half way ,with an organised defence.Distance gained in real terms not much,and territory in the modern game is vital.
Something different may catch the defence off guard.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
So you are suggesting a rule change where if you catch a bomb in goal and then kick for touch you get the scrum feed?

I like it. Should be considered.

What about extend it to if you catch it on the full anywhere inside your 20?

Players making plays.


Both would suit me.
The current catch and tap it ,or have to drop out from your in goal because you fumble,is predicable.The game needs more of the unpredictable.
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,878
I like it. Though I can't shake the thought that it would be better as a 30 metre kick.

I get your point as to why we don't see many 40/20 s but I think the main reason is footballers don't kick with great accuracy of that distance.
 

taipan

Referee
Messages
22,500
I like it. Though I can't shake the thought that it would be better as a 30 metre kick.

I get your point as to why we don't see many 40/20 s but I think the main reason is footballers don't kick with great accuracy of that distance.

They should get off their a*ses and learn how to kick for distance,instead of leaving it to a couple.If each side had more kickers ,there would be more unpredictability.
 

T-Boon

Coach
Messages
15,878
I saw that Tiger v NQ 2005 grand final a few weeks back.
If RL was played the way the Tigers played then I think our crowds would be through the roof.
Same with Parra in 2009.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
OK they may get another 6 but well outside the original defender's territory.If by chance he got a 0-50 kick,that would knock the stuffing out of the attack.
A tired defence would feel it more,the turning around ,racing back to retrieve a pill ,is energy sapping.

I do like the idea of turning the defences around but I'm just wondering if it would play out the way you think it will. When I talk about the General 40metre rule I've seen in demonstrated in real play with high school players - I saw 40 metres kick occur 4 times in one game with teams getting multiple sets of 6 - so maybe what you could do is organise a trial and film it.

To do what you're suggesting though with the 0-50 -- a player has to catch a bomb clean, choose not to take the tap restart, read the defense 50 metres down field as the defensive line rushes them, kick the ball 50 metres with it landing in the field of play, and let it go into touch without any of those players lagging behind to intercept (which usually happens)?

It does seem like an awful lot has to go right for player to even choose that option. My gut feeling is that it would occur so infrequently that the player who catches it would still just take the safe tap option so the defence won't bother dropping players back to cover it.

But even if it did work the way you wanted it -- doesn't that mean on the last kick the team kick is sending player back to cover a potential kick return? Doesn't that mean there are fewer players chasing the ball on the kick? It seems like that advantages the team defending on their own goal line instead of the team attacking with the initial kick.
 

docbrown

Coach
Messages
11,842
They should get off their a*ses and learn how to kick for distance,instead of leaving it to a couple.If each side had more kickers ,there would be more unpredictability.

They can kick for distance - goal line drop outs usually go 50 metres.

The problem is the reward/risk perception. At the moment the defences know that a 40-20 is 99% likely to occur when players are on the 40 metre line so they can prepare for it which takes the desire to kick from the attacking side. The attacking team knows that if they misjudge the kick it could go dead in goal which benefits the opposition. They also think they can get more territory by making simple runs and playing the defensive game.

The first time an attacking team kicks from the 10, 16, 23, 26, 35 etc metres in their own half & makes the 40 successfully and gains a repeat set the game totally changes. If the defense doesn't drop wingers back they risk handing the attacking team more repeat sets. If they have already or when they do, then the attacking side will shift the ball around in their own half more to exploit overlaps and make line breaks.

It really does shift the game from pro-defence to pro-attack. We will see less 10-8 scorelines and more 30-26 scorelines.
 

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