Why is there little interest in the Kiwis in this forum?

[Matua]

Since joining this forum I've been bemused as to the lack of support/following for the Kiwis (@Philip_Smith007 excluded as he always posts the Kiwis). In fact I actually joined because it's a NZRL forum. But, in all honesty a rugby forum I go to has more discussion about the Kiwis than on here.

But, it genuinely disappoints me how little engagement the Kiwis get in this forum. I'm country before club. I grew up watching the Kiwis through the 80s and 90s, they're the reason I started playing league. Olsen Filipaina, Dean Bell, Clayton Friend, James Leuluai, Kevin Iro etc are the my old heroes. When the Warriors have lots of Australian players I find my interest wanes a lot quicker when they have dud seasons.

I'm not angling for a shitfight. I'm just wondering why there is so little interest in the Kiwis on here. If you prefer club over country that's your choice.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I just can’t muster the enthusiasm I used to- just doesn’t feel like the Kiwis are the elite side they used to be.
I was watching a replay of a 90s test the other day, and the lineup was ridiculous, Jobes, both Paul bros, Wiki at centre, Joe Vagana, Vainikolo, Richie Barnett etc etc

 

[Beavers Headgear]

I think it is mainly the time of year and all tests being played this late sees interest wane

A complete lack of commitment and desire from many of the current day players doesn’t help either, Johnson has a huge year for the first time in a while, and announces he needs a rest doesn’t draw people in like it would have if he had the mettle of Foran/Fisher-Harris

 

[Matua]

I just can’t muster the enthusiasm I used to- just doesn’t feel like the Kiwis are the elite side they used to be.
I was watching a replay of a 90s test the other day, and the lineup was ridiculous, Jobes, both Paul bros, Wiki at centre, Joe Vagana, Vainikolo, Richie Barnett etc etc

Really? I mean I love all those old players too but the recent crop of Kiwis have been class.

@Beavers Headgear Why would interest wane? I'm loving the fact that there's still going to be league to watch this weekend.

Cheers for the replies.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

Really? I mean I love all those old players too but the recent crop of Kiwis have been class.

@Beavers Headgear Why would interest wane? I'm loving the fact that there's still going to be league to watch this weekend.

Cheers for the replies.

The die hards stick with it, but the warmer, sunnier nights draw more people into other activities that this time of year offers that a dark, cold murky night in the middle of the year offers

Personal example, when we played Samoa, I was out at the speedway rather than watching the test live

 

[Blair]

Matua, the Kiwis were the ultimate when I was a kid/teen. There was no Warriors, no NSWRL on NZ TV. We got the test matches live, always. Even in the middle of the night against Great Britain.

It was simply the best and brightest of league. When we ended the Kangaroos five-year winning run one July night at Lang Park in 1983, the game stopped a nation (NZ). My older brother was at a teenage party and it even stopped that! Me, I was at home with mum and dad, with the latter doing his usual shouting at the TV and such, something I'd get used to over the years as the Warriors came into our lives.

Where did it all go wrong? Origin is a big culprit. It just tore the heart out of test footy. It became the 'ultimate', with a massive effect in NZ at a crucial time. Let's take 1991, league's most exciting year. The Kiwis rolled the Kangaroos in a tremendous upset in Melbourne. The brand was hot, real hot.

What happened next? We imploded in the next two tests, against Australian stars which we became familiar with through Origin, along with an NSWRL competion that had begun to be shown on NZ TV particularly through live finals broadcasts.

That same year Graham Lowe coached the Queensland 'underdogs' to an exciting series win, shown live, to packed loungerooms and pubs, in NZ. The Maroons became a de facto national team, the NSWRL and its exciting promotion, a de facto national club competition.

Somewhere along the way the Kiwis got lost in this razzmatazz. Thirty years later and we don't even see them during the regular season, which is an administrative admission of where we are today.

 

[Brian potter]

I just can’t muster the enthusiasm I used to- just doesn’t feel like the Kiwis are the elite side they used to be.
I was watching a replay of a 90s test the other day, and the lineup was ridiculous, Jobes, both Paul bros, Wiki at centre, Joe Vagana, Vainikolo, Richie Barnett etc etc

Wasn’t this one was it?

 

[Matua]

Matua, the Kiwis were the ultimate when I was a kid/teen. There was no Warriors, no NSWRL on NZ TV. We got the test matches live, always. Even in the middle of the night against Great Britain.

It was simply the best and brightest of league. When we ended the Kangaroos five-year winning run one July night at Lang Park in 1983, the game stopped a nation (NZ). My older brother was at a teenage party and it even stopped that! Me, I was at home with mum and dad, with the latter doing his usual shouting at the TV and such, something I'd get used to over the years as the Warriors came into our lives.

Where did it all go wrong? Origin is a big culprit. It just tore the heart out of test footy. It became the 'ultimate', with a massive effect in NZ at a crucial time. Let's take 1991, league's most exciting year. The Kiwis rolled the Kangaroos in a tremendous upset in Melbourne. The brand was hot, real hot.

What happened next? We imploded in the next two tests, against Australian stars which we became familiar with through Origin, along with an NSWRL competion that had begun to be shown on NZ TV particularly through live finals broadcasts.

That same year Graham Lowe coached the Queensland 'underdogs' to an exciting series win, shown live, to packed loungerooms and pubs, in NZ. The Maroons became a de facto national team, the NSWRL and its exciting promotion, a de facto national club competition.

Somewhere along the way the Kiwis got lost in this razzmatazz. Thirty years later and we don't even see them during the regular season, which is an administrative admission of where we are today.

That's all choice though. As I said in my OP no shade, but you've chosen Aussie league (FYI the Maroons never became the de facto NZ team, not where I was from, it was always split) and teams over the Kiwis.

Also, the Kiwis won the world cup 17 years after imploding after Melbourne in 1991, so not sure why that was the death knell of the Kiwis.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

I’ve just been listening to the James Graham podcast, and he has Brandon Smith on with him

They are discussing the final, and Smith has to ask where it’s being played etc. this is one of the more high profile kiwis, and he has no idea. In fairness, I’ve seen blown lightbulbs that are brighter than the bloke, but can see why the general public can struggle to get enthused when that’s the attitude

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Where did it all go wrong? Origin is a big culprit. It just tore the heart out of test footy.

I'm not 100% sure that is true. Test footy was pretty strong in the mid 2000s, as was Origin. If you look at 2005 to around 2010 or so, maybe this is is a Kiwi-centric view, but I absolutely loved Test footy. It was a gripping contest played between the best players from Australia, NZ and England.

And now it isn't.

I can only speak for myself, a non-league player but league tragic in terms of club footy and formerly Test footy, that I probably fell out of love with it when the players did, to be honest with you.

2017 was probably the death knell, for me. There's no way a team of our calibre can turn up to a World Cup, lose to Fiji and pretend they gave a f*ck. We also drew with Scotland...SCOTLAND...a year before that. I saw Adam Blair sitting in a press conference trying to tell everyone we hadn't failed and they'd done their best, and I'd had a gutsful. They weren't showing me they gave a sh*t, so no longer did I. David Kidwell being coach and making such an F-up of it all didn't help, either.

And it's the same now. The amount of guys making themselves unavailable at the end of the year is insane. Shaun Johnson almost won a Dally M but isn't available. Needs a rest. I actually find myself comforted by that, which I shouldn't be. I should be angry. NAS - the big FWit - expresses his desire to play for Samoa WHILE IN CAMP WITH THE KIWIS. I'd literally not heard of 2-3 players in this squad and I follow the NRL reasonably avidly.

I love that there's dyed-in-the-wool fans like Matua. It's incredible. But I'm out for as long as it's the afterthought that it is to a lot of potential Kiwis players.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

I’ve just been listening to the James Graham podcast, and he has Brandon Smith on with him

They are discussing the final, and Smith has to ask where it’s being played etc. this is one of the more high profile kiwis, and he has no idea. In fairness, I’ve seen blown lightbulbs that are brighter than the bloke, but can see why the general public can struggle to get enthused when that’s the attitude

Remembering also that Adam Blair, also a former member of Melbourne's MENSA chapter, didn't know what time the Warriors final against the Knights or Panthers was (I forget which one) and he's a Warriors employee.

 

[Blair]

I'm not 100% sure that is true. Test footy was pretty strong in the mid 2000s, as was Origin. If you look at 2005 to around 2010 or so, maybe this is is a Kiwi-centric view, but I absolutely loved Test footy. It was a gripping contest played between the best players from Australia, NZ and England.

And now it isn't...

There's no doubt test footy made a strong showing in the mid-to-late-2000s - I still have the ticket to the 2006 Tri-Nations Final, which my brother bought for me, an All Black guy! - but I believe it was a false dawn. That year I mentioned, 1991, was when the slow decline - albeit with a significant sign of life still down the track - set in.

2017 was when many of us gave permission to unplug the life support. However, I'm fighting this feeling and am gonna try be pumped for the big showdown in Hamilton. C'mon Kiwis! An upset win is the shot in the arm we need.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I can't agree with some of the explanations given so far, which just don't align with historical reality.

For one, there's no way that old Kiwis teams used to be stronger - in terms of where first-string Kiwis players right now stand as NRL players, they are miles ahead of a lot of the guys we used to pick in the 80s, 90s, or 2000s. For some years now we've been able to pick a 17 entirely of pretty elite NRL players. Issues (having to pick fringe NRL players) only arise if we have mass unavailability (which has been an issue with the current squad).

However, even that is nothing new - for the last 20-odd years we've been sending away understrength teams on end of season tours in particular. Off-season surgery or "rehab" has been a widely used excuse for decades now.

I also don't think it's true that there is a long term trend towards this. As has been mentioned, there was real excitement around the 2005, 2006 and 2010 post-season tournaments and the 2008 World Cup. We also had a good run in 2014-2015. Hell, there was massive fanfare around Tonga (not so much the Kiwis) in 2017 and to some extent that was sustained through until we got "revenge" of a sort in 2019.

I think the immediate explanation may be as simple as no games being played between 2019 and 2022, a Northern Hemisphere World Cup (always a little bit out of sight out of mind) and then following that with no mid-season games in 2023. That's now 4 full years of a pretty pathetic schedule and very little urgency being shown to improve matters. When I think of times where international RL was really at the forefront, it's generally been when we've had a tournament or series being played in Aus or NZ. Until this current series we hadn't had that since pre-COVID, and that seems to have been enough of a gap to do serious damage to fan engagement.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

My other, perhaps more esoteric theory, which I've ranted about before, is that the growth of "the islands" has hurt the international game or maybe just the Kiwis. Obviously this is a pretty controversial theory which most people would disagree with, but I think there's something in it.

Big tests used to be mostly about the best NZ-qualified players taking on Australia or GB. For decades that meant a good number of Polynesian guys from NZ representing their country. I truly think that there has been a psychological impact for fans in confronting the reality that much of NZ's player base do not want to be seen as Kiwis, and in having to accept that our team no longer reflects the best of NZ-qualified players.

A strong NZ is very important for international rugby league and I know that for me at least, seeing the Kiwis become less reflective of "rugby league players from New Zealand" has negatively affected my engagement with the team.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Just to round that off, I'll never get my head around the reality that if you raise this argument in a lot of places you'll be accused of being selfish, greedy, wanting to hurt the international game, and basically just being racist.

I'm talking about wanting NZ Polynesians to be regarded as NZers and to represent me ffs. The whole thing is insane to me.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Just to round that off, I'll never get my head around the reality that if you raise this argument in a lot of places you'll be accused of being selfish, greedy, wanting to hurt the international game, and basically just being racist.

I'm talking about wanting NZ Polynesians to be regarded as NZers and to represent me ffs. The whole thing is insane to me.

No, I completely agree. The growth of the islands is a massively good thing, but it became very confusing as to who was who, who played for who, who might play for who in the future etc. Still does, as you see with NAS, DWZ etc. I don't think that helps fans get in behind their team, when there's such conjecture.

 

[Matua]

There's no doubt test footy made a strong showing in the mid-to-late-2000s - I still have the ticket to the 2006 Tri-Nations Final, which my brother bought for me, an All Black guy! - but I believe it was a false dawn. That year I mentioned, 1991, was when the slow decline - albeit with a significant sign of life still down the track - set in.

2017 was when many of us gave permission to unplug the life support. However, I'm fighting tnis feeling and am gonna try be pumped for the big showdown in Hamilton. C'mon Kiwis! An upset win is the shot in the arm we need.

But shouldn't the years after that have convinced you to plug back in? We had good wins over a Tongan side stronger than the one running around now, and a good world cup with a close loss to the Aussies with a couple of 50/50 calls.

On the PIs, in all honesty it's not really the cream of the crop we're missing out on (JT aside), there's some who might be heritage players for us (AFB), but, who of the current Tongans would we really want? And the majority of the Samoan's stay loyal to NZ (without an Origin carrot Mr Mulitalo).

Unlike @Manu Vatuvei I think the current Kiwis are pretty representative of NZ, we're even over the minimum quota of one Pakeha in the team.

 

[RHYTHM AND STEALTH]

Im Kiwis hard.
Prefere Kiwi games over Wahs games if im being honest. Im pumped for this game but usually the Wahs finish their season about 2 months ago but becos they went deep into the finals i think most people are a bit leagued out

 

[Matua]

Im Kiwis hard.
Prefere Kiwi games over Wahs games if im being honest. Im pumped for this game but usually the Wahs finish their season about 2 months ago but becos they went deep into the finals i think most people are a bit leagued out

Thumbs up despite your multiple use of tahs.

 

[Blair]

Im Kiwis hard.
Prefere Kiwi games over Wahs games if im being honest. Im pumped for this game but usually the Wahs finish their season about 2 months ago but becos they went deep into the finals i think most people are a bit leagued out.

I'm mentally and physically exhausted and need my summer break from the forum. As it is, the Pacific Cup and ICC World Cup have kept me here later than usual!