Why is Toovey so much better than Price?

[Saintsified]

Its really difficult to answer these questions when you aren't part of the machine, seeing what he does day in day out with the club and the players. All you can see is the press conferences (which actually may not reflect what he says to the players in the shed or the following week at coaching) and the results of the game (which may be as a result of a number things - many things that we are not privvy to).

I think it's also really difficult to answer the other side of these questions because of the same things: 1. What are his weakenesses and 2. What could he have done for the team. Every argument you put forward has a counter arguement - both baseless because we are filling in the gaps ourselves to suit our own point of views.

We are only making assumptions based on the limited information we have. It's easy to sit in an arm chair and accuse the coach of not performing or accuse the management of not performing when you are only armed with the teams results. It's like an iceberg - we only see a small percentage of what goes on and the results - we don't see what actually goes into coaching and the day to day actions of the team and management.

These aren't excuses - they are genuine points of view from one side of the fence. It is a fact that we had no established halves during the year - any team would struggle with the halves combinations we had. It is a fact that we have had no depth in that area and the centres for the entire year. These issues would make any coaching task difficult - especially given the halves are the key positions on the field.

It was interesting to read an article in our local paper yesterday regarding my local team the Mackay Cutters - they have made the finals for the first time in their history. Here's a section of it:

"Coach Kim Williams had a four-year stint at the Melbourne Storm as a high-performance manager and development team coach, and his expertise has rubbed off on the Cutters squad. Although a coach is only as good as the squad he has to work with, Williams said he was proud of his achievements."

I have highlighted the section that is relevant here. It says to me that coaches with the magic touch (like Bennett) are rare. Coaches rely on their roster and the attitude of their roster to get them through. This is why some of us in here believe that next year Price has the opportunity to show what he has. He has the roster to work with and the depth across the positions. IF he can't improve our position next year with the team we have, then we start looking for another coach.

Edit: link to the article http://www.dailymercury.com.au/news/know-the-enemy/2033825/

Finally a logical person speaks, I've been saying this all along myself....well said...


The Price could be right, we just have to test him with a full contingency of players, that he wanted.

 

[Slippery Morris]

Price had a supposed bad roster and finished where they would have expected to finish? Can people who support that theory do my tips next season because on paper you would think the Saints would finish ahead of the Panthers and Titans? I think that Saints had a strongervroster tnsh those 2 sides?

When Price started he had tje incumbet NSW 5/8 and a halfback the won a GF, played for NSW and Aust. Not bad halves. A backrow of origin players in Creagh, Young & Scott. 2 of the best wingers in the game, etc...

If you dont want to compare Manly to Saints then look at the Panthers as a good comparrison. The team who not only finished ahead but beat Saints twice once keeping us scoreless.

 

[BrissyRedV]

You have the wrong year slippery. In 2012 when those guys played we finished ahead of them. And if you think the titans line up with the young halves they have and a forward pack that included bird and Myles was a worse team ours, well you mustn't have gone too well with your tips this year.

 

[Saint Anger]

Price and Toovey?

One plays Dragons footy, the other can actually coach.

 

[Puff]

...an example of toughness at the Dragons - now and back then.

Remember Bath's babes?

The late great Harry Bath won premierships twice over 3 years with a bunch of young nobodies.

Do you think he enjoyed the luxury of waiting for young players to develop, have enough talent and exactly the right attitude and be ready for first grade?

Or do you reckon he had the guts and took a risk on inexperience and youth ?

I believe what Steve Price demonstrated (even moreso in 2013 than in 2012), is he either doesn't have the brains, or the courage to try something different. He was so consumed with showing such extraordinary loyalty to Nathan Fien at halfback, because it was all he had to offer, especially to the senior players of the team. And whilst he sat on his hands waiting and waiting for something to 'click', the forwards turned to mush and so did our defence, both up the middle in meters conceded and on our tryline. I've never seen such stubborness and one dimensional coaching.

Stop stockpiling the excuses, forget the positive spin. I think the most positive thing that can be said is the truth. Call a spade a spade. And when the coach hasn't performed, have the guts to call it and do something about it.

It is infinitely more effective then any 'fake it 'till you make it' 'hope 'til you die' strategy in achieving successful outcomes.

 

[Black Forest Dragon]

Its really difficult to answer these questions when you aren't part of the machine, seeing what he does day in day out with the club and the players. All you can see is the press conferences (which actually may not reflect what he says to the players in the shed or the following week at coaching) and the results of the game (which may be as a result of a number things - many things that we are not privvy to).

I think it's also really difficult to answer the other side of these questions because of the same things: 1. What are his weakenesses and 2. What could he have done for the team. Every argument you put forward has a counter arguement - both baseless because we are filling in the gaps ourselves to suit our own point of views.

We are only making assumptions based on the limited information we have. It's easy to sit in an arm chair and accuse the coach of not performing or accuse the management of not performing when you are only armed with the teams results. It's like an iceberg - we only see a small percentage of what goes on and the results - we don't see what actually goes into coaching and the day to day actions of the team and management.

These aren't excuses - they are genuine points of view from one side of the fence. It is a fact that we had no established halves during the year - any team would struggle with the halves combinations we had. It is a fact that we have had no depth in that area and the centres for the entire year. These issues would make any coaching task difficult - especially given the halves are the key positions on the field.

It was interesting to read an article in our local paper yesterday regarding my local team the Mackay Cutters - they have made the finals for the first time in their history. Here's a section of it:

"Coach Kim Williams had a four-year stint at the Melbourne Storm as a high-performance manager and development team coach, and his expertise has rubbed off on the Cutters squad. Although a coach is only as good as the squad he has to work with, Williams said he was proud of his achievements."

I have highlighted the section that is relevant here. It says to me that coaches with the magic touch (like Bennett) are rare. Coaches rely on their roster and the attitude of their roster to get them through. This is why some of us in here believe that next year Price has the opportunity to show what he has. He has the roster to work with and the depth across the positions. IF he can't improve our position next year with the team we have, then we start looking for another coach.

Edit: link to the article http://www.dailymercury.com.au/news/know-the-enemy/2033825/

True, we don't know the goings on behind the doors, and what is said to the players. And true, every argument made has a counter argument, but i dispute that that is necessarily based on a pre-conceived conclusion.

Firstly, Do you seriously think he talks so differently to the players ...and maintains one persona for public interview and another for the players? I don't believe he is that clever. I may be wrong.

Secondly, I think his weaknesses are based on a one dimensional approach to coaching. Things don't work, but don't change them. Loyalty and faith as shown to Nathan Fien at halfback for example, are in themselves good things, but when you apply them too highly over flexibility, trial and error as Steve Price did, then you lose the opportunity to learn - and for a man in his position, that is a big weakness! I don't think that can be disputed by anyone.

And to respond with 'the coach is only as good as the players' is true to an extent. It is not the be all and end all, and constantly referring to such motherhood statements significantly understates the importance and influence of a good coach / leader of a group of men, and is therefore a fallacy.

 

[Black Forest Dragon]

Don't you think it strange that every man interviewed on Dragons TV, from senior and junior players and club stalwarts alike ...in reflecting over the season 2013 and their message to fans for 2014 ...NOT ONCE was the coach Steve Price mentioned.

ALL attribute the year's poor performance first up to injuries - ok.

All refer to the magnificent recruitment to reassure fans for next year - also ok.

But a not syllable on Steve Price - that's telling!

Have the polls shown he is not popular?

Other clubs wouldn't do that. The first person a player is always quick to acknowledge in interview is the influence of the coach.

And, why do we hear the thoughts of every man and his dog, except the man himself whose thoughts and assessment count the most?!

 

[TruSaint]

Don't you think it strange that every man interviewed on Dragons TV, from senior and junior players and club stalwarts alike ...in reflecting over the season 2013 and their message to fans for 2014 ...NOT ONCE was the coach Steve Price mentioned.

ALL attribute the year's poor performance first up to injuries - ok.

All refer to the magnificent recruitment to reassure fans for next year - also ok.

But a not syllable on Steve Price - that's telling!

Have the polls shown he is not popular?

Other clubs wouldn't do that. The first person a player is always quick to acknowledge in interview is the influence of the coach.

And, why do we hear the thoughts of every man and his dog, except the man himself whose thoughts and assessment count the most?!

No doubt, he is dodging bullets.
BFD points are so obvious.
Where is the leader / coach making a stand ?
He wont walk because HE didnt employ himself.
Who would ?

 

[Black Forest Dragon]

Brissy .....you'rrrre grrrreeeeeeeenn !! : )

 

[BrissyRedV]

Hells yeah I am. What else would I be reading on night shift.

Frankly, we have all put our opinions out there on the subject of Price. I am not adverse to the idea of Price having a LAST chance with a good roster. If makes it through the preseason so be it. If he gets sacked for a better option so be it. Just so long as it is a better option. A Tony Smith or the like who has runs on the board either here or in the ESL. All I can say is that the preseason hasnt even started and I am already over it.

 

[Black Forest Dragon]

...Mate, ...no you're not !

the first 10secs of this vid says it all. : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMr2daGzvnk

keep fighting!!!

 

[Dezziedc]

Firstly, Do you seriously think he talks so differently to the players ...and maintains one persona for public interview and another for the players? I don't believe he is that clever. I may be wrong.

Why not? Apparently everything else the club releases - whether it be press releases, player interviews etc is media spin. Even you yourself have said that. Why would the only thing that anybody in the forums takes on face value is what Price says in the post game conferences? I see that as a rather convenient way to support an argument. Why can't it just be a way for him to protect the team from media scrutiny and ridicule? He has flown under the radar this year as has the team - maybe that is his plan or maybe that is the what the club wants him to do. Oh wait, no that can't be right. He's not smart enough to do something like that...

Secondly, I think his weaknesses are based on a one dimensional approach to coaching. Things don't work, but don't change them. Loyalty and faith as shown to Nathan Fien at halfback for example, are in themselves good things, but when you apply them too highly over flexibility, trial and error as Steve Price did, then you lose the opportunity to learn - and for a man in his position, that is a big weakness! I don't think that can be disputed by anyone.

Trial and error? He trialed different players in different positions, he trialed new players coming through etc. Just because he didn't do what YOU think was right doesn't make him wrong. And once again, what options did he have - halves depth was no existant and centre options were limited? And again, we don't know the details behind why those decisions were made. Again, you are basing your arguement on assumptions and without facts. If he had've brought the other players in and it made no difference would you have thought any different about Price? Probably not. I suspect that no matter what he did nobody would have been happy.

And to respond with 'the coach is only as good as the players' is true to an extent. It is not the be all and end all, and constantly referring to such motherhood statements significantly understates the importance and influence of a good coach / leader of a group of men, and is therefore a fallacy.

I didn't say it is the be all and end all. What I said was that this shows that not every coach has the magic touch and can pull a top 8 side out of a lacklustre roster. It takes a special kind of coach to be able to do that. And there aren't that many in the league at the moment. A good coach will influence the team in a positive way - and who's to say Price hasn't done that? Feedback from the team seems to be that he has had a good influence on the players coming through and they do like working for him. But oh wait a minute, that's more of the media spin isn't it?

Like BRV, if he goes before or during pre-season, so be it. I am ok with that, but I am also OK with giving him a chance with next years team. If he fails, as I said, its time to find another coach. But I can see that over the last couple of years, the situation has been difficult for the coach, team and club. There are a number of reasons for that, and Price has contributed to that in some ways. But at the same time, I think some of that is as a result of the situation he has been placed in.

I think it best to agree to disagree. Its a discussion that will go around in circles.

 

[Black Forest Dragon]

I think it best to agree to disagree. Its a discussion that will go around in circles.

....I disagree

....!

 

[Dezziedc]

....I disagree

....!

I guessed as much!!!

 

[saint.nick]

Don't you just hope that Toovey's men absolutely wack these pretty boy rooster dicks? Mind you, they've been really lucky tonight!

 

[saint.nick]

And their fans still can't fill half their stadium in a prelim. Outnumbered by fans 200 km away.

 

[Black Forest Dragon]

The crowds over the finals series have been really poor.

37,000 odd at tonight's game?

What was the crowd for the same game Dragons v Tigers in 2010 - wasn't it over 60,000??

Even the bunnies crowd was disappointing I thought.

 

[rainman44]

The crowds over the finals series have been really poor.

37,000 odd at tonight's game?

What was the crowd for the same game Dragons v Tigers in 2010 - wasn't it over 60,000??

Even the bunnies crowd was disappointing I thought.

It hit the 70s

 

[saint.nick]

The crowds over the finals series have been really poor.

37,000 odd at tonight's game?

What was the crowd for the same game Dragons v Tigers in 2010 - wasn't it over 60,000??

Even the bunnies crowd was disappointing I thought.

It was about 72,000. Only Souths, Saints, Tigers, Dogs and Eels can pull it off. Souths had Manly last night, which explained the low crowd. I went to the game, and not many were there. But to their credit, they were pretty vocal. Eels and Dogs in 09 got the same as us in '10, and likewise with Souths/Dogs last year. That being said, NRL is piss poor at marketing games. The minor premiership decider; marketed by Souths, got more people than last night. It's obvious where the blame is.

I didn't attend 2010 prelim, but my mate said there was more Saints fans than tigers fans

 

[Black Forest Dragon]

I didn't attend 2010 prelim, but my mate said there was more Saints fans than tigers fans

...there were more of us then them.

It's because we were openly challeged to turn up - with media reports sayig Dragons fans wouldn't show up

...wrong!