Widdop seeks release

[Belta]

DragonJ said;

“ But to have Widdop playing fullback and on more money than the likes of RTS, Ponga and Tedesco is a farce only McFooknuckle could be incompetent enough to oversee.”
————————————++++—-++++++++++++++—————————————

I thought the same but then considered the flexibility factor. If Mary does start with Widdop at fullback (which I don’t think he will) Widdop will be a very effective fullback, and our attack will undoubtedly improve as he begins to combine with Norman and Hunt.

But IMO, the real value for us will be possibility of various attacking options and extra depth. If either half is injured or our our attack is flat than we have options (which have been discussed) ie Hunt to hooker, Norman half or fullback or bench, Dufty bench or fullback, Widdop five eight or fullback etc.

I envisage our biggest hand brake will be an unimaginative coach who seems to make a round 1 mould and regardless of what’s going on refuses to break the
set mould

 

[Overseas dragon]

I don’t think recruitment made a snap decision so much as they were forced into one by Widdop asking for a release. I’d also argue that we had such poor halves for so long that having three rep quality halves on our books for one season is actually an excellent position to be in.

It was not a snap decision the dragons were after Norman long before the widdop shit hit the fan ......

 

[True_Believer]

Toward the end when? What season?

Well I'm not "creaming my pants". Just stating the fact that from what I have seen of him play, not too much, he is going to be a fantastic signing. It's just that unlike you I don't "cream my pants" over Widdop. We been a rabble ever since he arrived. I guess the most unsuccessful 5 years in the entire history of St George or SGI. As the (C) for around half and marquee playmaker for the entire period, surely you can admit more blame should be placed on him than anyone else. Does he mean that much to you that you can't accept that?

If you were able to read my comment in the context of the discussion (which you've conveniently chosen not to), you would realise I was talking about that specific game. Seems you just want to bag Widdop at every opportunity and attempt to tell me what I am thinking.

You haven't seen him play much but am convinced he is going to be a fantastic signing. Says it all really.

Let me ask you this then, given the ladder position they've ended up in over the 5 years he's been at the club, can you admit that more blame can be placed on him than anyone else in the team? And before you try to twist the question, I'm talking about Norman and the Eels.

 

[DragonJ]

Firstly @TruSaint @Old Timer
You two are really fanatical in your love for Widdop. Fair Dinkum!!! I think we will have to agree to disagree. Let's see how things go with Hunt and Norman in the halves. Personally I'm super-optimistic! Though FFS, need some speed in the backline! And of course a new coach before I'm confident about winning the competition.

The fact that you dont know the total all encompassing salaries of Tedesco & RTS or Widdop's flaws your argument re playing Widdop at fullback because of $$. You fail to mention the salaries of Munster (new deal) will play fullback, Hopoate, Trobejvich, Gutherson (do you know their salaries)

Munster is obviously one of the best players in the competition and will probably be 5/8. Trobejvich is also one of the best fullbacks. I would rate him just a shade behind Tedesco, RTS and Ponga.

If we signed Hopoate or Gutherson for the money Widdop is on, I believe I might just lose my mind. Actually, from what I have seen Gutherson is the second most overrated player in the competition. Parra going for him over Hayne makes me feel very warm and fuzzy. Though I'm not privy to the political situation over there.

I feel Widdop will start the season at fullback and Norman at five-eighth. That's not to say that if either does not perform well, there won't be changes made.

As far as salary comparisons are concerned, we really do not know the true facts but it was reported that Tedesco signed a 700k NRL contract and received a 500k TPA. I can't see Widdop anywhere near the figure of 1.2m per season.

possm, I may be wrong but Widdop is on 900k a year as far as I know. Tedesco is probably on much more but "officially", I believe around 800k a year. I remember reading how much he is officially on and snorting over how flagrant the Rorters are cheating.

I thought the same but then considered the flexibility factor. If Mary does start with Widdop at fullback (which I don’t think he will) Widdop will be a very effective fullback, and our attack will undoubtedly improve as he begins to combine with Norman and Hunt.

But IMO, the real value for us will be possibility of various attacking options and extra depth. If either half is injured or our our attack is flat than we have options (which have been discussed) ie Hunt to hooker, Norman half or fullback or bench, Dufty bench or fullback, Widdop five eight or fullback etc.

I envisage our biggest hand brake will be an unimaginative coach who seems to make a round 1 mould and regardless of what’s going on refuses to break the
set mould

I have mentioned a few times that if both these wingers who couldn't get a start at Brisbane and Canberra work out well, Widdop will go well at fullback. If not, I just feel the team will be too slow and Dufty's speed will be desperately needed. But no way in hell would I even consider paying Widdop as much or more than RTS, Tedesco and Ponga.

 

[possm]

Gotta love our colleagues obsession and willingness to bring everything onto the shoulders of 1 man
That being the case he should be able to do a simple comparison of what Norman has delivered as the “go to man at the Broncos and Eels” and also assess how sad the respective clubs and fans were to lose his services.

All will be revealed during the first few rounds of 2019.

 

[possm]

I don’t think recruitment made a snap decision so much as they were forced into one by Widdop asking for a release. I’d also argue that we had such poor halves for so long that having three rep quality halves on our books for one season is actually an excellent position to be in.

Yes and I tip that we will see a much better managed game plan and greater opportunities for our speedy young wingers.

 

[DragonJ]

If you were able to read my comment in the context of the discussion (which you've conveniently chosen not to), you would realise I was talking about that specific game. Seems you just want to bag Widdop at every opportunity and attempt to tell me what I am thinking.

You haven't seen him play much but am convinced he is going to be a fantastic signing. Says it all really.

Let me ask you this then, given the ladder position they've ended up in over the 5 years he's been at the club, can you admit that more blame can be placed on him than anyone else in the team? And before you try to twist the question, I'm talking about Norman and the Eels.

What I know is that in 2017 I saw a little of Norman play. Like several games. I wasn't impressed with their forwards but as far as I could see he was still their best player and led them to a top 4 finish. And gave us a thrashing in a must win game for us. Gave Widdop a bath! They played really badly against Cowboys in the knock-out semi and were really unlucky in preliminary final against Melbourne.

 

[Carlton]

Widdop is not a game manager or extra ordinary ball player, his biggest plus is he is an opportunist. I think that we are talking fullback skills rather than half skills.

Widdop is not slow, Pearson and Ravalawa are quick and we wont lose anything in speed even if dufty isn't there. Both Lomax and Lafai are actually centres who can put there winger away, I think we may be looking at one of the most potent backlines in the league next year if they are picked.

Hunt needs a partner who can allow him to inject himself when he sees a chance. Norman is a good game manager and has a great kicking and passing game. If McInness can be given a bit of a break from his defensive workload I think we will see his attack ramp up. McInness is not slow.

Our forwards have been the pillars of the team and I think they will improve even further next year, mainly because I think the belief is there. The young props we have look promising and I think that at least one of them is going to prove more than just a run of the mill first grader.

See what happens when the first games are approaching, all common sense disappears and I just ignore the fact that Mary is still coach.

 

[muzby]

I just ignore the fact that Mary is still coach.

Could you imagine if the players took that approach?

Premiers, baby...

Premiers.

 

[Frank Facer]

Firstly @TruSaint @Old Timer
You two are really fanatical in your love for Widdop. Fair Dinkum!!! I think we will have to agree to disagree. Let's see how things go with Hunt and Norman in the halves. Personally I'm super-optimistic! Though FFS, need some speed in the backline! And of course a new coach before I'm confident about winning the competition.

Munster is obviously one of the best players in the competition and will probably be 5/8. Trobejvich is also one of the best fullbacks. I would rate him just a shade behind Tedesco, RTS and Ponga.

If we signed Hopoate or Gutherson for the money Widdop is on, I believe I might just lose my mind. Actually, from what I have seen Gutherson is the second most overrated player in the competition. Parra going for him over Hayne makes me feel very warm and fuzzy. Though I'm not privy to the political situation over there.

possm, I may be wrong but Widdop is on 900k a year as far as I know. Tedesco is probably on much more but "officially", I believe around 800k a year. I remember reading how much he is officially on and snorting over how flagrant the Rorters are cheating.


I have mentioned a few times that if both these wingers who couldn't get a start at Brisbane and Canberra work out well, Widdop will go well at fullback. If not, I just feel the team will be too slow and Dufty's speed will be desperately needed. But no way in hell would I even consider paying Widdop as much or more than RTS, Tedesco and Ponga.

Tedesco is officially on less than 800K a season. I think it was 700K. lol

I think Munster's best position if fullback. I think he even said that he would like to move back to fullback. With Ponga playing 5/8 for Newy this year, I won't be surprised to see him picked at 5/8 for Qld and Munster picked at fullback.

 

[Frank Facer]

I would start the year off with Dufty at fullback. If he doesn't perform well enough, then I would move Widdop back to fullback and know that we need to recruit a new fullback for 2020. If Dufty isn't ready for first grade this year, then he never will be. I don't think he will gain much playing ISP. I would play Widdop at left centre. He would be the most expensive centre in the comp, but that is where I think he would fit into our best 13.

I think Norman could be the halfback that we have been searching for, even though he will probably be wearing the number 6. As someone else pointed out, we will have him for a bargain price next year, so that alleviates paying Widdop overs for centre.

Maybe our best scenario would have been to let Widdop go to England this year and also shopped Aitken and Lafai around. If we could have offloaded all of them, we could have created around 1.6 mil cap space to chase look at signing 2 or 3 quality players in positions such as prop, centre, wing or fullback. In saying that we should be shopping Aitken and Lafai around for at least 2020. That would then give us the 1.6 mil or so salary cap space.

 

[Belta]

DragonJ said;

“ ... But no way in hell would I even consider paying Widdop as much or more than RTS, Tedesco and Ponga.”

————————————————————————————————————

Ignoring the fact these players aren’t available, the whole TPA argument, my point of team having depth, I can see an angle that has some credit to question Widdops high salary. If the Dragons are in fact considering Norman as thier new play maker, than that should change Widdops role and hence his value.

It all depends on whether his role/position changes. I’m not voicing an opinion either way but I think it should have been one of the factors taken into account in the negotiations especially since Widdop was the one who instigated this change.

 

[Drag Queen]

I can send you a link where you can d/l the entire game if you like. Widdop was not close to one of our best despite the forwards rampaging all over their weaker opponents.

I remember the game. Norman was good and frankly speaking, we were very lucky to get away with that game. The game that really sticks in my memory is one late in the 2017 season. At the business end of the season, we were as usual in free-fall and really needed to win. Along came Parra and Norman toyed with us. Up until that point I had no idea he could play that well. Behind our superior forward pack, I expect him to do what Widdop hasn't done for the past 5 years and really do some serious playmaking.

It sounds to me you are preparing to throw Norman under the bus in order to make excuses for Widdop. In the last 2 or 3 weeks I have seen this done with JDB, the forwards generally, Ben Hunt, Benji Marshall, Chinless and Brainless Price and Mary McFooknucle.

Good luck to you. I think he is going to play so well, you won't get the opportunity.

In theory this is true. It is the job of the marquee playmaker to carry the team. That's why he is paid the big bucks. And in the case of Widdop, it's why we have been such a rabble for the past 5 years. A bit of improvement last year on the back of Hunt and the still awesome forwards.

FFS. ouryears has created another account and he's endorsed Felicia as his back-up singer. This should be fun...

 

[True_Believer]

What I know is that in 2017 I saw a little of Norman play. Like several games. I wasn't impressed with their forwards but as far as I could see he was still their best player and led them to a top 4 finish. And gave us a thrashing in a must win game for us. Gave Widdop a bath! They played really badly against Cowboys in the knock-out semi and were really unlucky in preliminary final against Melbourne.

So 1 year out of 5 where Eels have cracked the top 8 with him in the team. Actually that was the only year that they made it past 10th! And probably still benefiting from salary cap rorting.

And you haven't answered my question - given he would have been one of their marquee players during this period, can you admit that more blame can be placed on him than anyone else in the team for their poor performances during this period?

 

[Dragonslayer]

Its pretty harsh to lay the blame fir a teams performance solely at the feet of one or two players. Yes, Norman was a marquee pjayer at the Eels, but not sure we'd be discussing him if it weren't for his off-field antics.
One player doesnt make a team. If we wenr down that road we can say: (last year)
Ponga at the Knights - couldn't get them to the finals.
Cherry-Evans at Manly, the first $6m man, couldn't gef Manly to the finals
The 2 JT's at the Cows couldn't get them to the finals.
The Morris twins at the Dogs etc and the list could go on.
The point is there are many contributing factors that make up a teams performance including game plans, injuries as so forth. But one if the biggest i feel is club culture. So, getting back to the Eels and Norman, to me their club culture was (and still maybe) toxic, both at club management level and player level and has been for several years.
Whilst i'm happy we signed Norman of course I want to see results from him, but only fame day will tell us that. The fact that he was willing to depart the Eels, and not see out his very high salary, and was selected in the QLD emerging SOO squad, says ti je that he wants to cgange and other people can see his talent.
Lets give him the benefif of the doubt before we begin crucifying him.

 

[DragonJ]

FFS. ouryears has created another account and he's endorsed Felicia as his back-up singer. This should be fun...

Which team do you support?

So 1 year out of 5 where Eels have cracked the top 8 with him in the team. Actually that was the only year that they made it past 10th! And probably still benefiting from salary cap rorting.

And you haven't answered my question - given he would have been one of their marquee players during this period, can you admit that more blame can be placed on him than anyone else in the team for their poor performances during this period?

They had the salary cap problem one year as well. On top of that, I believe he wasn't being paid as "a marquee playmaker" until he proved himself as that, in 2017. As far as I know, he was halfback for the Broncos, was a poor halfback and had behavioral issues. Parra picked him up cheaply. He proved he was a marquee playmaker and thus, signed a new contract reflecting that. Then last year not sure what happened. Is @Drag Queen an Eels supporter? Ask him.

If that isn't true, if he was recruited as a marquee playmaker for them 5 years ago, yes, I agree with you. More blame can and should be placed on his shoulders for Parra's performance than anyone else.

Still, judging from what I saw of him in 2017, I'm very optimistic of what he can do behind the go forward our forwards consistently provide.

Widdop is not a game manager or extra ordinary ball player, his biggest plus is he is an opportunist. I think that we are talking fullback skills rather than half skills.

Widdop is not slow, Pearson and Ravalawa are quick and we wont lose anything in speed even if dufty isn't there. Both Lomax and Lafai are actually centres who can put there winger away, I think we may be looking at one of the most potent backlines in the league next year if they are picked.

I stated pretty much this on another thread. If Pearson and Ravalawa work out, I think Widdop will go well at fullback. If we up with Periara and Aitken or Lomax on the wings and Widdop at fullback, I think we'll end up in the bottom third of the table.

I really like the idea of having big, fast wingers outside Lomax and Lafai. @possm speculated that even our incompetent idiot team managers wouldn't have recruited these two if they weren't NRL standard. I hope he is right but I'm not so sure.

 

[blacksafake]

Its pretty harsh to lay the blame fir a teams performance solely at the feet of one or two players. Yes, Norman was a marquee pjayer at the Eels, but not sure we'd be discussing him if it weren't for his off-field antics.
One player doesnt make a team. If we wenr down that road we can say: (last year)
Ponga at the Knights - couldn't get them to the finals.
Cherry-Evans at Manly, the first $6m man, couldn't gef Manly to the finals
The 2 JT's at the Cows couldn't get them to the finals.
The Morris twins at the Dogs etc and the list could go on.
The point is there are many contributing factors that make up a teams performance including game plans, injuries as so forth. But one if the biggest i feel is club culture. So, getting back to the Eels and Norman, to me their club culture was (and still maybe) toxic, both at club management level and player level and has been for several years.
Whilst i'm happy we signed Norman of course I want to see results from him, but only fame day will tell us that. The fact that he was willing to depart the Eels, and not see out his very high salary, and was selected in the QLD emerging SOO squad, says ti je that he wants to cgange and other people can see his talent.
Lets give him the benefif of the doubt before we begin crucifying him.

A bit too much sense in your post Dragonslayer for certain people's liking.

 

[True_Believer]

Its pretty harsh to lay the blame fir a teams performance solely at the feet of one or two players. Yes, Norman was a marquee pjayer at the Eels, but not sure we'd be discussing him if it weren't for his off-field antics.
One player doesnt make a team. If we wenr down that road we can say: (last year)
Ponga at the Knights - couldn't get them to the finals.
Cherry-Evans at Manly, the first $6m man, couldn't gef Manly to the finals
The 2 JT's at the Cows couldn't get them to the finals.
The Morris twins at the Dogs etc and the list could go on.
The point is there are many contributing factors that make up a teams performance including game plans, injuries as so forth. But one if the biggest i feel is club culture. So, getting back to the Eels and Norman, to me their club culture was (and still maybe) toxic, both at club management level and player level and has been for several years.
Whilst i'm happy we signed Norman of course I want to see results from him, but only fame day will tell us that. The fact that he was willing to depart the Eels, and not see out his very high salary, and was selected in the QLD emerging SOO squad, says ti je that he wants to cgange and other people can see his talent.
Lets give him the benefif of the doubt before we begin crucifying him.

Pretty much what I was trying to get at. You can't blame a single player for a teams performance year after year or say one has to take more blame than another.

I'm not defending Widdop because of who he is or how he plays, I'm defending him as a single player copping the blame for a teams performance. You can't blame one in one team but then praise another in another team performing even worse than we have been.

 

[possm]

I would start the year off with Dufty at fullback. If he doesn't perform well enough, then I would move Widdop back to fullback and know that we need to recruit a new fullback for 2020. If Dufty isn't ready for first grade this year, then he never will be. I don't think he will gain much playing ISP. I would play Widdop at left centre. He would be the most expensive centre in the comp, but that is where I think he would fit into our best 13.

I think Norman could be the halfback that we have been searching for, even though he will probably be wearing the number 6. As someone else pointed out, we will have him for a bargain price next year, so that alleviates paying Widdop overs for centre.

Maybe our best scenario would have been to let Widdop go to England this year and also shopped Aitken and Lafai around. If we could have offloaded all of them, we could have created around 1.6 mil cap space to chase look at signing 2 or 3 quality players in positions such as prop, centre, wing or fullback. In saying that we should be shopping Aitken and Lafai around for at least 2020. That would then give us the 1.6 mil or so salary cap space.

Dufty has the chance to develop his defensive skills, positional play and gain confidence when taking the high ball under pressure. It is best he does this playing against men in ISP mainly because we do not want to lose ANY games in 2019 because of week defence at the back etc. If Dufty is to continue making mistakes mentioned above, he will not be fit for first grade or needs to move to a club which has coaching staff that can bring him through. I believe the Club has already made the decision to start with Widdop at fullback. If this is not the case, I'm sure Widdop would not be with us in 2019.

Our two new wingers a big and fast. If they step up, get super fit and apply themselves, we have the players with speed that we want on the wings. If not there is always a slower solution in Maranta and Pereira.

Yes Aitken and Lafai were signed as our long term centres but unfortunately it has not worked out well. I'm sure if Millward and Mary had the opportunity to move them on they would promptly move that way. So we have one player now ready to occupy the right centre position in Lomax and really no suitable solution other than Lafai for the left centre position. All that needs to happen right now is for Lafai to curtail his ill-disciplined passes, Aitken to be dropped to ISP and both Lomax and Lafai to be instructed to set up their speedy young wingers at every opportunity.

When it comes to the halves, if you think about it our best combination would be Widdop at 6 and Norman at 7 however, Widdop is leaving and Hunt is signed long term. A Norman / Hunt halves combination can work as long as Norman is playing the halfback roll in the 6 jumper and Hunt is given a licence to just send the ball to Frizell on the edge and Lomax or his winger on the right. Hunt should also look for opportunities to run straight through the line when gaps appear.

I'd like to see Hunt jump in at dummy half from time to time when he believes there is an opportunity to make big metres in a similar way to Cook however, I believe Hunt is not a hooker and would fail under the constant defensive work that a modern day hooker has to undertake. I believe a Mcinnes / Robson hooker rotation would be the best in the competition.

 

[DragonJ]

Pretty much what I was trying to get at. You can't blame a single player for a teams performance year after year or say one has to take more blame than another.

I'm not defending Widdop because of who he is or how he plays, I'm defending him as a single player copping the blame for a teams performance. You can't blame one in one team but then praise another in another team performing even worse than we have been.

I don't think anyone would even think of blaming Widdop alone (among the playing group) for the last 5 years of rubbish but as (C) for more than half that time and a marquee playmaker for the entire time, he absolutely should take more blame than anyone else.

Just relax a little. He is now a fullback. I think Pearson and Ravalawa are going to work out well and thus Widdop will compliment the team very well at fullback. He will still be massively overpaid but Mary McFooknuckle is our head coach. This kind of stupidity is the rule rather than the exception.