Widdop seeks release

[KiamaSaint]

Kiama Saint - you have either failed to notice my post afterwards ( when I realized the mistake ) or you have decided not to mention it . For the record - it was indeed an honest mistake , simply confusing one commercial with another , nothing more than that .

I missed it.

 

[BLM01]

Well after reading a lot of biased opinions and outlandish statements to support an opinion against Widdop I will now provide my opinion...but try to keep it in balance
I start of saying prior to 2018 Widdop was our shining light, I loved him as a player and he tried his guts out for us saving our arse in defense on many occassions and our go 2 attacking weapon + goal kicker, who was let down by inept attack coaching and surrounding team mates and a No. 7. And Yes that included Benji.
He is a brilliant player who can kick off both feet well, has a good step, had very good pace prior to his hip dislocation (year before coming to us) but still has pretty good acceleration. Plays off the cuff and YES and needed and offsider that is a settler, calming influence.
Fast forward to 2018 having Hunt & Dufty out or inside him gave the Dragons extra attacking dimensions which worked for most of the year as he could be involved more in those instinctive off the cuff plays.
It reduced a lot, him trying the big HAIL MARY driibble kick play or constant crabbing across field to find a hole runner that he overdid in previous years as it was up to him to come up with everything as nothing was organised by the coaching staff to work plays of his passing and running game.

Final summation.... no doubt he is instinctively a bit kick happy and his 1st instinction is to run a bit angled or sideways which makes it easy for defenders to crowd him and read our plays outside him shutting our attackers down. Maybe he is not a leader or captain but tried and we did not manufacture anyone else for that role. Again not his fault.
The fact that the Dragons employed Hunt who is also a similar off the cuff player is a major reason people on here whinge about poor game management as they did not get the game manager they were looking for to offset what Widdop needed and how he played but Hunt and Dufty just gave us other attacking weapons for teams to watch for and gave Widdop more space and time when we went that way.
We had that sort of game manager player in McCrone but that was also poor recruiting of a player that had fallen far behind NRL pace and level that opposition teams did not need to worry about... it was always going to end in tears.
Norman is that calming game manager to offset Hunt we need, It is a shame they did not find anybody like that for Widdop and too late now and had they did that from say 2013 onwards instead of knee jerking and signing Benji in 2014 we may have seen a different team and results.
I reckon Widdop realised that last year after Hunt's arrival which partly led to his exodus out of the club.
He will now go on to partner Blake Austin who is instinctive off the cuff, not a great defender and can make errors but he can control a game taking ownership and Widdop can be free and instinctive as much as he likes
He does not deserve what he cops on here as he threw everything he could except the kitchen sink to get us firing, unfortunately he did it alone. Thanks Football Department, Coach & Management.
YES i have cursed him from time to time about his option takings but excluding BMOz no one gave us more positive stuff, heart, excitement and some individual brilliance since 2010.

 

[DragonJ]

Legend has it if you say my name 2 more times in quick succession I may appear behind you in a mirror..

FFS..... all I care about is anything that has the opposite effect. Not even I can suffer fools all the time.

Yet, in a different post you claim
Widdop “isn’t a bad player”.

I think you’re a bit confused.

With a good coach, Widdop could’ve been the best backline recruit Saints has made since the mid 80s.

Not confused at all. DeBellin isn't a bad player but is a terrible playmaker as well.

Well after reading a lot of biased opinions and outlandish statements to support an opinion against Widdop I will now provide my opinion...but try to keep it in balance
I start of saying prior to 2018 Widdop was our shining light, I loved him as a player and he tried his guts out for us saving our arse in defense on many occassions and our go 2 attacking weapon + goal kicker, who was let down by inept attack coaching and surrounding team mates and a No. 7. And Yes that included Benji.
He is a brilliant player who can kick off both feet well, has a good step, had very good pace prior to his hip dislocation (year before coming to us) but still has pretty good acceleration. Plays off the cuff and YES and needed and offsider that is a settler, calming influence.
Fast forward to 2018 having Hunt & Dufty out or inside him gave the Dragons extra attacking dimensions which worked for most of the year as he could be involved more in those instinctive off the cuff plays.
It reduced a lot, him trying the big HAIL MARY driibble kick play or constant crabbing across field to find a hole runner that he overdid in previous years as it was up to him to come up with everything as nothing was organised by the coaching staff to work plays of his passing and running game.

Final summation.... no doubt he is instinctively a bit kick happy and his 1st instinction is to run a bit angled or sideways which makes it easy for defenders to crowd him and read our plays outside him shutting our attackers down. Maybe he is not a leader or captain but tried and we did not manufacture anyone else for that role. Again not his fault.
The fact that the Dragons employed Hunt who is also a similar off the cuff player is a major reason people on here whinge about poor game management as they did not get the game manager they were looking for to offset what Widdop needed and how he played but Hunt and Dufty just gave us other attacking weapons for teams to watch for and gave Widdop more space and time when we went that way.
We had that sort of game manager player in McCrone but that was also poor recruiting of a player that had fallen far behind NRL pace and level that opposition teams did not need to worry about... it was always going to end in tears.
Norman is that calming game manager to offset Hunt we need, It is a shame they did not find anybody like that for Widdop and too late now and had they did that from say 2013 onwards instead of knee jerking and signing Benji in 2014 we may have seen a different team and results.
I reckon Widdop realised that last year after Hunt's arrival which partly led to his exodus out of the club.
He will now go on to partner Blake Austin who is instinctive off the cuff, not a great defender and can make errors but he can control a game taking ownership and Widdop can be free and instinctive as much as he likes
He does not deserve what he cops on here as he threw everything he could except the kitchen sink to get us firing, unfortunately he did it alone. Thanks Football Department, Coach & Management.
YES i have cursed him from time to time about his option takings but excluding BMOz no one gave us more positive stuff, heart, excitement and some individual brilliance since 2010.

Not a bad opinion at all but I have one problem with it. Big problem. You're blaming all these other guys for not being the "game manager Widdop needs". Why couldn't the same be said of Widdop? He isn't the game manager Benji, McCrone, Hunt, Williams and 2 or 3 other halfbacks who crashed and burned playing with Widdop needed.

I agree about the effort he put in but sometimes effort isn't enough.

With playmaking duties taken away from him, I think he is going to do well. Well, now I'll go down the same road you have and say if both these "fast" wingers work out Widdop will do well at fullback. If not, the backline will be so slow without Dufty.

@TruSaint will be quick to throw the wingers and centres under the bus but again, as Widdop will be one of, if not the highest paid fullback in the competition, why shouldn't the finger be pointed at him if this worst case scenario comes to pass? I don't think it will. As I keep saying, I think both new wingers will work out and Lomax will be one centre and the team will be very well balanced.

 

[BLM01]

FFS..... all I care about is anything that has the opposite effect. Not even I can suffer fools all the time.


Not confused at all. DeBellin isn't a bad player but is a terrible playmaker as well.


Not a bad opinion at all but I have one problem with it. Big problem. You're blaming all these other guys for not being the "game manager Widdop needs". Why couldn't the same be said of Widdop? He isn't the game manager Benji, McCrone, Hunt, Williams and 2 or 3 other halfbacks who crashed and burned playing with Widdop needed.

I agree about the effort he put in but sometimes effort isn't enough.

With playmaking duties taken away from him, I think he is going to do well. Well, now I'll go down the same road you have and say if both these "fast" wingers work out Widdop will do well at fullback. If not, the backline will be so slow without Dufty.

@TruSaint will be quick to throw the wingers and centres under the bus but again, as Widdop will be one of, if not the highest paid fullback in the competition, why shouldn't the finger be pointed at him if this worst case scenario comes to pass? I don't think it will. As I keep saying, I think both new wingers will work out and Lomax will be one centre and the team will be very well balanced.

Ill reply by saying this;
1: Widdop was before all those you mention so it is the club's fault not the players fault for not finding a half to compliment his game as they were rebuilding from the disaster of coaching and squad we had 2012 & 13. Not all players are good at everything and every good half will tell you you need forwards and good cattle around you.
Few exceptions in JT, Johns etc were good at all facets of the game. Even Lockyer had his defensive weaknessess and crappy goal kicker.
It is a team sport and 1 player does not make a team. A team makes a player.

2. You keep rambling on that he will be the highest paid fullback. You dont know for sure he will be fullback nor know salaries, so stop ramming that down our throats.
And if he is injured for 24 rounds. Are you going to whinge that he is the highest paid injured player doing nothing for his wage. Yoiu said it once..we get your point of view.
Since when do you cut someone's salary becuase you as aclub decide to move him to another position or even reserve grade. You are stuck with paying the salary if both parties agree to a contract for better or worse!

 

[DragonJ]

Ill reply by saying this;
1: Widdop was before all those you mention so it is the club's fault not the players fault for not finding a half to compliment his game as they were rebuilding from the disaster of coaching and squad we had 2012 & 13. Not all players are good at everything and every good half will tell you you need forwards and good cattle around you.
Few exceptions in JT, Johns etc were good at all facets of the game. Even Lockyer had his defensive weaknessess and crappy goal kicker.
It is a team sport and 1 player does not make a team. A team makes a player.

2. You keep rambling on that he will be the highest paid fullback. You dont know for sure he will be fullback nor know salaries, so stop ramming that down our throats.
And if he is injured for 24 rounds. Are you going to whinge that he is the highest paid injured player doing nothing for his wage. Yoiu said it once..we get your point of view.
Since when do you cut someone's salary becuase you as aclub decide to move him to another position or even reserve grade. You are stuck with paying the salary if both parties agree to a contract for better or worse!

Obviously there is a very finite supply of good game managers. And Williams was here before Widdop and I think another halfback lasted with Widdop for a few rounds. Was it Fein? Drinkwater? Both?

It's a valid point in any debate about the upcoming season.

Well this ties into the above. You don't. As the player was the one who instigated the move and as a more than adequate replacement for him was already recruited, you tell the player, "You can leave now, take a pay cut and play fullback or play in the ISP." That is what any decent coach would do.

 

[BLM01]

Obviously there is a very finite supply of good game managers. And Williams was here before Widdop and I think another halfback lasted with Widdop for a few rounds. Was it Fein? Drinkwater? Both?

It's a valid point in any debate about the upcoming season.

Well this ties into the above. You don't. As the player was the one who instigated the move and as a more than adequate replacement for him was already recruited, you tell the player, "You can leave now, take a pay cut and play fullback or play in the ISP." That is what any decent coach would do.

You dont know what you are talking about. Williams signed after Widdop and signed by Price to play with him after letting Drinkwater go before throwing him out for Benji. Why did they not throw Widdop out. I will tell you why.... he was just about leading the DALLY M before Benji came on the scene.
What the hell has Fien & Drinkwater got to do with it anyway. They both never played with him so next BS to justify you argument please!
In regards to saying that to a marquee player Widdop no decent coach or club will do that.
Tell me the last player to have his current contract salary reduced whilst to stay in 1st grade
He would just walk and we would be the losers. What world are you living in?. It aint a pub side.

 

[Old Timer]

Obviously there is a very finite supply of good game managers. And Williams was here before Widdop and I think another halfback lasted with Widdop for a few rounds. Was it Fein? Drinkwater? Both?

It's a valid point in any debate about the upcoming season.

Well this ties into the above. You don't. As the player was the one who instigated the move and as a more than adequate replacement for him was already recruited, you tell the player, "You can leave now, take a pay cut and play fullback or play in the ISP." That is what any decent coach would do.

Tell me any player that was paired with Widdop in the halves at our club that had stellar careers before or after?
The answer is SFA so it is therefore obvious that Widdop has had a plethora of ordinary (to say the least) partners in the halves and barely another player in the team who could strike fear into the heart of the opposition or do the solo piece of brilliance that wins a game (B Moz how we missed him)
Last year we indeed saw some glimpses of what it is like to have a halves combination that can combine with a powerful pack but injuries and stupidity from the coach put an end to that.
So we all know your opinion on Widdop and your willingness to blame him for all things that created a loss regardless of anything else that occurred in the game and to give him no credit for creating anything even remotely to do with good play or heaven forbid a win.
You like many before you in relation to Widdop, live in a Dickensian world in that you wish to single him out and attribute to him all failings and that makes you feel good and helps you justify why we lose games and don't compete for the title.
Open your mind and look outside the square and get some reality in your thought process because Widdop is not greatest player ever but he is far from the worst player we have had and without him these last years we would have been substantially worse.
In a good team he wins you a premiership and the hard core fact is we have been anything but a good team and you and others have made the classic mistake in thinking we have been better than what we were.
Even as great as they were Langlands & Smith could not alone make up for the mediocrity that surrounded them and they had the benefit of having each other at the height of their careers and you expect Widdop to do it for gods sake wake up to yourself he needed help to carry out the task.
We now have a very much better team with 1 major hurdle being the coach and if ever there was a season that Widdop needed to be playing 5/8 this is that year because if the coach has managed to learn anything re selection and tactics the premiership window is well and truly open and Widdop is the man that can deliver it.

 

[DragonJ]

You dont know what you are talking about. Williams came after Widdop and signed by Price before throwing him out for Benji.
What the hell has Fien & Drinwater got to do with it. Fien on last legs in his last year played together with Widdop and Josh no name was not even a 1st grader so next BS to justify you argument please!
In regards to saying that to a marquee player Widdop no decent coach or club will do that.
He wouldjust walk and we would be the losers. What world are you living in?. It aint a pub side.

Fein was on his last legs. Drinkwater wasn't NRL standard, ditto for Josh no name, ditto for Benji, ditto for Ben Hunt, ditto for Austin next year, or it will be ESL. Seriously! This is getting ridiculous! I know I'm coming across as a guy who really can't stand Widdop. It annoys me because it isn't true. I just hate him as a playmaker.

He would just walk? In your and my dreams! That would free up almost a mil!!!!! We would have Dufty at fullback. I think Widdop will be better than Dufty was last year (perhaps. far from a sure thing) but not by a great margin and that almost a mil a year could free up money for a shot at Valentine Holmes for example! I know Holmes will get more than that but just as an example.

No. A guy like Cleary would punt him and give him a minimal payout as it was the player who instigated the move but wouldn't go without at least a minimal payout. I'd speculate 100 or 150k minimum.

 

[BLM01]

Fein was on his last legs. Drinkwater wasn't NRL standard, ditto for Josh no name, ditto for Benji, ditto for Ben Hunt, ditto for Austin next year, or it will be ESL. Seriously! This is getting ridiculous! I know I'm coming across as a guy who really can't stand Widdop. It annoys me because it isn't true. I just hate him as a playmaker.

He would just walk? In your and my dreams! That would free up almost a mil!!!!! We would have Dufty at fullback. I think Widdop will be better than Dufty was last year (perhaps. far from a sure thing) but not by a great margin and that almost a mil a year could free up money for a shot at Valentine Holmes for example! I know Holmes will get more than that but just as an example.

No. A guy like Cleary would punt him and give him a minimal payout as it was the player who instigated the move but wouldn't go without at least a minimal payout. I'd speculate 100 or 150k minimum.

Cleary...pffft. Yeh he would do it to his son. You cant. Widdop has not instigated a move for this year or ask to play fullback so you cant cut his salary as still under his contract for this year. They did not sign a new contract for 2019. He has not broken his contract yet officially until November 1, 2019 if he goes and plays or trains elsewhere. Can you at least get the legal ramifications of what you are saying you want the club to do. And why would they..he has been a good 6 year servant after this year.
They club actually like him...... not detest him like you.
Sure you can drop him to ISP and pay him the big bucks if you want to punish him but you still got to pay him

 

[muzby]

Tell me any player that was paired with Widdop in the halves that had stellar careers before or after?

 

[DragonJ]

Cleary...pffft. Yeh he would do it to his son. You cant. Widdop has not instigated a move for this year or ask to play fullback so you cant cut his salary as still under his contract for this year. They did not sign a new contract for 2019. He has not broken his contract yet officially until November 1, 2019 if he goes and plays or trains elsewhere. Can you at least get the legal ramifications of what you are saying you want the club to do. And why would they..he has been a good 6 year servant after this year.
They club actually like him...... not detest him like you.
Sure you can drop him to ISP and pay him the big bucks if you want to punish him but you still got to pay him

Have you been drinking? You obviously not a @muzby -like idiot but you are repeating something which is patently obvious. Of course the club can't say "Now you will be playing in a different position, your salary is going to be reduced." If they did and "he upped and walked" like you stated he would, it would be tremendous coup for the club but alas, no way. We would be "stuck" with Dufty at fullback, Lomax goalkicking and of course Norman playmaking with almost 1mil to strengthen any positions that need strengthening.

As it was apparently he who instigated the move and as we have a more than adequate replacement, a decent coach would tell him to accept less money to play fullback or tell him to up and leave now (with a minimal payout to be negotiated) or to play in the ISP!

 

[Old Timer]

At our club Muzby well that was the intent of the post so I’ll go back and edit.

 

[Saint_JimmyG]

FFS..... all I care about is anything that has the opposite effect. Not even I can suffer fools all the time.


Not confused at all. DeBellin isn't a bad player but is a terrible playmaker as well.


Not a bad opinion at all but I have one problem with it. Big problem. You're blaming all these other guys for not being the "game manager Widdop needs". Why couldn't the same be said of Widdop? He isn't the game manager Benji, McCrone, Hunt, Williams and 2 or 3 other halfbacks who crashed and burned playing with Widdop needed.

I agree about the effort he put in but sometimes effort isn't enough.

With playmaking duties taken away from him, I think he is going to do well. Well, now I'll go down the same road you have and say if both these "fast" wingers work out Widdop will do well at fullback. If not, the backline will be so slow without Dufty.

@TruSaint will be quick to throw the wingers and centres under the bus but again, as Widdop will be one of, if not the highest paid fullback in the competition, why shouldn't the finger be pointed at him if this worst case scenario comes to pass? I don't think it will. As I keep saying, I think both new wingers will work out and Lomax will be one centre and the team will be very well balanced.

Comparing a bloke who’s predominantly a five-eighth to a lock forward in terms of playmaking ability is a bit rich.

 

[Saint_JimmyG]

Tell me any player that was paired with Widdop in the halves at our club that had stellar careers before or after?
The answer is SFA so it is therefore obvious that Widdop has had a plethora of ordinary (to say the least) partners in the halves and barely another player in the team who could strike fear into the heart of the opposition or do the solo piece of brilliance that wins a game (B Moz how we missed him)
Last year we indeed saw some glimpses of what it is like to have a halves combination that can combine with a powerful pack but injuries and stupidity from the coach put an end to that.
So we all know your opinion on Widdop and your willingness to blame him for all things that created a loss regardless of anything else that occurred in the game and to give him no credit for creating anything even remotely to do with good play or heaven forbid a win.
You like many before you in relation to Widdop, live in a Dickensian world in that you wish to single him out and attribute to him all failings and that makes you feel good and helps you justify why we lose games and don't compete for the title.
Open your mind and look outside the square and get some reality in your thought process because Widdop is not greatest player ever but he is far from the worst player we have had and without him these last years we would have been substantially worse.
In a good team he wins you a premiership and the hard core fact is we have been anything but a good team and you and others have made the classic mistake in thinking we have been better than what we were.
Even as great as they were Langlands & Smith could not alone make up for the mediocrity that surrounded them and they had the benefit of having each other at the height of their careers and you expect Widdop to do it for gods sake wake up to yourself he needed help to carry out the task.
We now have a very much better team with 1 major hurdle being the coach and if ever there was a season that Widdop needed to be playing 5/8 this is that year because if the coach has managed to learn anything re selection and tactics the premiership window is well and truly open and Widdop is the man that can deliver it.

Benji Marshall comes to mind (although I really wanted to say Michael Witt).

 

[Saints Forever]

OT, agree Widdop has been a gun for our side and for the most part he has had very little support in attack.

As for Langlands and Smith, please don’t mention them in the same breath as Widdop and his supporting halves.

Between 1963-1975 I don’t recall Saints missing the semi finals.

Certainly from 1967 onwards we didn’t win a grand final, however the team faced arguably the greatest South Sydney side of all time, often fielding 10 plus Australian internationals.

Post 1966 our forward pack was generally decent without necessarily being outstanding, unlike our current forward pack.

Langlands and Smith were clutch players, Gareth Widdop is yet to consistently make the big plays when it really counts.

 

[Old Timer]

Benji Marshall comes to mind (although I really wanted to say Michael Witt).

I should have been a bit more precise.
Benji’s stellar career was as a 5/8 not a 7.
As a 7 he is a dead set dud.

 

[Saint_JimmyG]

I should have been a bit more precise.
Benji’s stellar career was as a 5/8 not a 7.
As a 7 he is a dead set dud.

Very true.

Other than the most obvious answer, I cannot fathom why McGregor never tried Widdop at half and Marshall in the number six jumper.

 

[Old Timer]

Very true.

Other than the most obvious answer, I cannot fathom why McGregor never tried Widdop at half and Marshall in the number six jumper.

Well beyond his limited field of vision.

 

[Saint_JimmyG]

Well beyond his limited field of vision.

I did say “most obvious answer”.

 

[71saintsimon]

Very true.

Other than the most obvious answer, I cannot fathom why McGregor never tried Widdop at half and Marshall in the number six jumper.

Stil I can’t get over when that imbecile played jack debelin at 7 he must rank as the biggest ever flop to coach saints